54 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

I'm on the road to Denerim right now, so, I'll do his quest shortly.



Needless to say I've already saved Redcliffe (though I haven't gotten to the Urn yet), and I did, in fact, get the outcome that made Alistair happy (saved Connor and Isolde).

[Riona45]

Xeyska wrote...

Do his personal quest, it will appear after you visit Redcliffe at least once. Alistair will tell you he has a sister and if its okay to try to find her in Denerim. Visit her, and leave, Alistair rants on for a little bit and tell him that "You should know people look after themselves." (If you want to harden him, that is.)

If you don't want to hardened him, just tell him that there are people that still care for him. Also Alistair does ask the PC for some horizontal jog when he's at 100+ Love.

Just to clarify--are you simply telling me about the personal quest, or are you implying that you have to do his quest in order for him to approach the PC, as per my question?

Modifié par Riona45, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:31 .

[Recidiva]

Riona45 wrote...

Thanks for the additional comments.

Even if hardening Alistair doesn't make a *huge* difference, I couldn't bring myself to do that. I just don't like the idea. It'd be like ruining what attracted me to the guy in the first place.

I couldn't do it either, the first two times.  Seems like kicking a puppy and makes me very angry really, the way it's presented.  It's the least intuitive thing to do.

BUT...for me anyway, it's the only way to make it through Landsmeet without wanting to kill him myself.  And it's genuinely worth some of the new conversation options.  I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of sad Alistair face and the new "giving me funny attitude and not cringing all the time" Alistair. 

It's worth it both ways.  But don't let the clunkiness of the quest sway you entirely as to what the results are.  It's not so much ruining him as keeping him from imploding under the pressure of future choices.

If Paris is worth a mass, Alistair is worth choosing two lines of text for his own benefit, if not mine.

For me a lot of it comes down to what the epilogue looks like in the end.  I do ultimately think the greatest good for everyone involved is a hardened Alistair, though I think the way they do it is distasteful.

[Recidiva]

Just to clarify--are you simply telling me about the personal quest, or are you implying that you have to do his quest in order for him to approach the PC, as per my question?

I don't think it has to be in order.  Though doing Redcliffe is a big Alistair faction boost if you save Connor and Isolde and you find his amulet.  A couple of his big gifts that are scattered around and you're well on your way very early on.

I've done lots of things out of order, but I think what matters is that the plot has progressed somewhat.

So I know enough about Alistair faction and responses and gifts to get a huge boost in his approval early in the game, but unlike other romances, I think Alistair is paced somewhat according to plot, so you really can't trigger everything at once.  That's why my third time through it took a LONG time relatively to get him up to 90, compared to asking him myself. 

Alistair builds up to it though, and even if your approval is high, some plot progressions have to happen before you're going to get anything new to happen.  It's usually rose, kiss, proposition, but like I'd said, I got kiss and then proposition and rose, because I pushed his faction so high so early and I leapfrogged, but he still goes back to one of his major cutscenes later on after a plot point (gaining an ally) has passed.

[SarEnyaDor]

I think, sadly it is sort of random when he does it.



Once I had him initiate it before Redcliff was even a twinkle in my eye (did Circle and Forest quests first). I have yet to harden him, because that is just the sh%tiest thing to say to someone ever, IMHO, and he has approached me all times since my first playthrough when I attacked him. LOL



I have had the rose, the kiss and the bed scene out of order before also. Pretty funny, I wanted to make a de-flowering remark, but alas it wasn't an option.



Seriously, not to dampen your spirits, but I don't think there is a SPECIFIC trigger. Just a list of possibilities that can be triggered. Once I had him aske me to sleep with him right after our camp was attacked and he just got done telling me the camp wasn't safe anymore and we had to move on. LOL

[Riona45]

Recidiva wrote...
I couldn't do it either, the first two times.  Seems like kicking a puppy and makes me very angry really, the way it's presented.  It's the least intuitive thing to do.

BUT...for me anyway, it's the only way to make it through Landsmeet without wanting to kill him myself.  And it's genuinely worth some of the new conversation options.  I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of sad Alistair face and the new "giving me funny attitude and not cringing all the time" Alistair. 

It's worth it both ways.  But don't let the clunkiness of the quest sway you entirely as to what the results are.  It's not so much ruining him as keeping him from imploding under the pressure of future choices.

If Paris is worth a mass, Alistair is worth choosing two lines of text for his own benefit, if not mine.

For me a lot of it comes down to what the epilogue looks like in the end.  I do ultimately think the greatest good for everyone involved is a hardened Alistair, though I think the way they do it is distasteful.

Understood.  Saying "everyone is out for themselves" is pretty cringeworthy, and my character (who is altruistic but certainly not *naive*) doesn't even believe that.  It kind of implies that you don't care about Alistair either ("everyone" includes you after all, right?). 

Thanks for sharing your opinion on it, though. 

Modifié par Riona45, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[Badpie]

I never "hardened" him and he asked me.



I do think it has something to do with the personal quest though. After I finished the Goldanna quest the next time I spoke to him he thanked me and admitted he loved me. Then right after, when we got back to camp, he approached me to spend the night.



Could be you have to talk to him once or twice after Goldanna to get those little conversations first? I'm not sure.

[Riona45]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think, sadly it is sort of random when he does it.

Once I had him initiate it before Redcliff was even a twinkle in my eye (did Circle and Forest quests first). I have yet to harden him, because that is just the sh%tiest thing to say to someone ever, IMHO, and he has approached me all times since my first playthrough when I attacked him. LOL

What do you mean by "when you attacked him?"  Just curious...

I have had the rose, the kiss and the bed scene out of order before also. Pretty funny, I wanted to make a de-flowering remark, but alas it wasn't an option.

Seriously, not to dampen your spirits, but I don't think there is a SPECIFIC trigger. Just a list of possibilities that can be triggered. Once I had him aske me to sleep with him right after our camp was attacked and he just got done telling me the camp wasn't safe anymore and we had to move on. LOL

I appreciate your input.  By the way, is it really true that if you've asked him to sleep with you even once (way back when he wouldn't have said yes), he won't approach you and you have to be the one to ask him?  I keep hearing mixed things from different people.  Some say yes, some say no.

Modifié par Riona45, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:58 .

[Recidiva]

Riona45 wrote...
Understood.  Saying "everyone is out for themselves" is pretty cringeworthy, and my character (who is altruistic but certainly not *naive*) doesn't even believe that.  It kind of implies that you don't care about Alistair either ("everyone" includes you after all, right?). 

Thanks for sharing your opinion on it, though. 

Absolutely.  I agree 100%, and that's my instinct as well.  I had to read up on spoilers to make heads or tails of it.  He does what?  That means what?  That makes no sense!  That's awful writing and awful advice!   I dearly wish they'd just made one crucial word's difference.  "Some people are only out for themselves." 

On the whole, it's a concept that didn't play well for me.  I don't buy that humor is there to deflect, I buy that it's there to make people more comfortable and ease bad news and Alistair even says that.  "That's my job.  To deliver bad news and witty one liners."

To find out that the writers intend for you to think of him as childish and cowardly as a result was frankly personally offensive.  I talk JUST LIKE Alistair all the time.  That doesn't make me deflecting or incapable of responsibility or necessity.

So it doesn't work for me, but if I'm gonna play the game, I guess that's just one more of those grey choices I'm forced to face or refuse to face and deal with consequences either way.  On the whole the best for me is to run the romance like I'm ignorant of all the subtext, let it run its course entirely until he has nothing more to say to me,  harden Alistair RIGHT before Landsmeet  because he's not going to share his feelings at Arl Eamon's anyway, he's going to talk about the dining room.  Navigate landsmeet without killing him myself, and then protect him from any bad choices I seem to be able to anticipate that he's going to make along the way.

[SarEnyaDor]

Riona45 wrote...

What do you mean by "when you attacked him?"  Just curious...

I appreciate your input.  By the way, is it really true that if you've asked him to sleep with you even once (way back when he wouldn't have said yes), he won't approach you and you have to be the one to ask him?  I keep hearing mixed things from different people.  Some say yes, some say no.

As for attacking him, I meant me ambushing him and asking him to my tent.... "well, I'll give it a shot." "Just follow my lead." LOL

And I'm not entirely sure about what is SUPPOSED to happen Alistair about whether or not he will ask you later if you asked him first, as some of my games have been a bit buggy. It's sort of like sometimes the previous save data takes on things from saves way further in the story. I know nothing about programming etc so I can't explain it better, but I know going back in time to the camp should also remove spells/equipment from the future.

I do know that games where I didn't reload saves for alternate talking options, to see what happened (or to get evil achievements) have been much less prone to problems or odd journal entries.

Sorry, I guess that's not so much an answer. Yes, I have had him ask me after I made the first move, but I can't be sure it wasn't a bug because of the aforemention issues.

[Riona45]

Recidiva wrote...
So it doesn't work for me, but if I'm gonna play the game, I guess that's just one more of those grey choices I'm forced to face or refuse to face and deal with consequences either way.  On the whole the best for me is to run the romance like I'm ignorant of all the subtext, let it run its course entirely until he has nothing more to say to me,  harden Alistair RIGHT before Landsmeet  because he's not going to share his feelings at Arl Eamon's anyway, he's going to talk about the dining room.  Navigate landsmeet without killing him myself, and then protect him from any bad choices I seem to be able to anticipate that he's going to make along the way.

Just out of curiosity, what does Alistair do at the Landsmeet that makes you want to kill him?

[Riona45]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Sorry, I guess that's not so much an answer. Yes, I have had him ask me after I made the first move, but I can't be sure it wasn't a bug because of the aforemention issues.

No, it's a good answer.  I think I get what you are saying with regards to the bugginess of the game.  For example, I have the Diabolist achievement from Warden's Keep, even though I reloaded after drinking the potion and chose NOT to drink it (the game still thinks I drank it, but I don't have the powers from it or anything).  Weirdness.

I've decided to be patient.  I'll do the personal quest, then wait a little after that. 

[eschilde]

Uh. You can trigger him to ask you to bed by going to camp directly after finishing the Goldanna quest, given that you have high enough favor and are on the romance track. I don't think you need to have finished Redcliffe, you just have had to have gotten his personal quest. I'm not 100% on that, though, because I've been playing my game Lothering->Circle of Magi->Redcliffe->Denerim and am currently pre-Ashes quest. You may need to save Connor/Isolde.

[Riona45]

eschilde wrote...

Uh. You can trigger him to ask you to bed by going to camp directly after finishing the Goldanna quest, given that you have high enough favor and are on the romance track.

Thanks, I'll try that...

[Recidiva]

Just out of curiosity, what does Alistair do at the Landsmeet that makes you want to kill him?

* MAJOR SPOILERS - LOTS - DON'T READ UNLESS YOU WANT IT SPOILED - SOME OF WHICH IN GAME CONTEXT MIGHT JUST MAKE YOU CRY OR THROW CONTROLLERS *

You have to choose between Anora or Alistair as King or Queen.  It's possible to have Anora as queen, but she's vile.  It's possible to have Alistair marry Anora, but that's extra-double vile with sugar on top.

If you're in a romance with Alistair, the only way to make him King and be a GOOD king is to harden him up, otherwise he hates you for putting him in power despite his wishes and not wanting to be responsible or have to lead.  He spends his kingship in the epilogue being generally liked by the populace, but mostly hanging out in taverns and avoiding any kingly duties.

If you're anything other than a human noble, he'll be the one to tell you that you can't rule with him because the Landsmeet will never accept anyone that isn't a human noble.  *sound of heart breaking and illusions shattering followed by "You...racist, classist bastard!" and the sound of a very angry bowstring being drawn or the Origin equivalent*  ESPECIALLY when you know what Loghain told you at the beginning of the game in Ostagar.  King Maric gave Loghain a noble title because of his service to the nation.  So...my service means jack?  WHAT THE HELL?

If you're in a romance and not a human noble and he is not hardened, you can't convince him to keep up any sort of relationship with him, because he feels it's his duty to marry someone noble and have a child as an heir, and as Grey Wardens you both have tainted blood and will be unable to children together or live to raise them.  He has to find a wife and fulfil his duties.  There's no way out of this without a very high persuade check and picking very specific conversation options, if he's hardened, for him to stay with you.  You won't be able to marry.  But you can convince him that being a King is not a punishment and that he can do what HE wants and not what everyone else says he should do.  You'll just live in sin together.

If you're a human noble, you're fine.  Most of this won't come up.  If you put Anora on the throne, it won't come up.  Unfortunately on my first play through I was a mage who knew Alistair would be a better king than Anora would be a queen (and I was right, hah!).  A very angry, heartbroken mage with zero control or options.  I must have reset that landsmeet for four hours trying to find a way out of it.  But there wasn't any way out.  I didn't know that it was because I wasn't noble and he wasn't hardened and there was no chance whatsoever.

He'll still love you after Landsmeet, he just won't touch you or talk to you afterward on the subject other than to say it's too painful to talk about.  He will leave you at Landsmeet to pursue his resented duties as king.

If you choose to make Anora queen, the Alienage suffers under her rule.

[Riona45]

Recidiva wrote...

If you're in a romance with Alistair, the only way to make him King and be a GOOD king is to harden him up, otherwise he hates you for putting him in power despite his wishes and not wanting to be responsible or have to lead.  He spends his kingship in the epilogue being generally liked by the populace, but mostly hanging out in taverns and avoiding any kingly duties.

LOL!  Cailan redux?

Thanks for answering my question.

[Recidiva]

LOL!  Cailan redux?

Thanks for answering my question.

Exactly.  It's like the quote from "the Incredibles"  - "No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again. Sometimes I just want it to stay saved! You know, for a little bit? I feel like the maid; I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for... for ten minutes!"

I hate the epilogues where everything goes to hell immediately.

[taffetta]

For me so far (and done it a few times). Finish Goldanna quest.

Trigger conversation about Goldanna (not the one you automatically have but where you have to click to start it and he will say 'thanks for being there or whatever)

Approval at 97 minimum (and loves you obviously not friendly)

Go back to camp and he will proposition you from the loading screen - I mean you don't even have to initiate the conversation.

[Riona45]

taffetta wrote...

For me so far (and done it a few times). Finish Goldanna quest.
Trigger conversation about Goldanna (not the one you automatically have but where you have to click to start it and he will say 'thanks for being there or whatever)
Approval at 97 minimum (and loves you obviously not friendly)
Go back to camp and he will proposition you from the loading screen - I mean you don't even have to initiate the conversation.

Thanks for putting in your two cents--I'll try that.

[Magaloo]

Recidiva wrote...

If you're in a romance with Alistair, the only way to make him King and be a GOOD king is to harden him up, otherwise he hates you for putting him in power despite his wishes and not wanting to be responsible or have to lead.  He spends his kingship in the epilogue being generally liked by the populace, but mostly hanging out in taverns and avoiding any kingly duties.

I never hardened him.  It did not fit in the way I was playing my human noble and really it's not something I would have said anyway.  But somehow other dialogue choices( i.e. mentionning how good he is with people, how just and down to earth he is ) must have affected things.  He took the throne and in the epilogue it was said that he was a good king, loved by his people or being down to earth and touring the country with the other grey warden to see how everyone was doing made him very popular.  Plus good actions on things like Alienage and such.  No mention of taverns.

As for the OP question... He asked my PC to come to him in the 90 approval but not hardened and I had not done is personal quest yet.  I would be qondering i I did not get in a bug of being stuck in friendsville after a goo start at romance.  It is what is happening with Leliana at the moment for me.  I have a great approval rating yet she wont talk to PC even though things were going good.

Modifié par Magaloo, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[Zeleen]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

He won't. You have to be the one to invite him to your tent.

NOOOOOOOO....... don't ever do this!!

[Riona45]

Zeleen wrote...

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

He won't. You have to be the one to invite him to your tent.

NOOOOOOOO....... don't ever do this!!

Do you have any comments with regards to my question?

[Aeronwy Diobhell]

Recidiva wrote...

Through one playthrough, I never talked to anyone out on the road, because there are too many conversation ninja things that I wanted to be able to save and go through at camp and not randomly around the world.

You can follow Alistair's romance and avoid the question of sleeping together, and he'll talk to you in camp and slowly build up to it.

There are three major parts, him giving you the rose, your first kiss and sleeping together. He'll initiate all of them if you raise his approval and initiate the romance. In one game, I got the rose...last. So...there's that.

If you don't want to screw it up in any way, SAVE before you go to camp each time or start talking to him, and you'll be fine. When his approval is getting in the 90s, he'll initiate sleeping together.

I've also talked him into bed, but that's less romantic, as being told he'll "give it a shot" is a lot less romantic than being told "Here's the thing. Being around you makes me crazy, but I can't imagine not being around you. Not ever."

So play around with it, but save often. Honestly some of the joking responses get hilarious results, but some of them can result in a massive drop in approval because sometimes he shrugs it off and makes a joke and sometimes he makes sad Alistair face and occasionally angry Alistair rant.

Hardening him makes no difference, as coincidentally once he did the whole romantic spiel RIGHT after I hardened him up at Goldanna's.  The only real difference in the romantic line is his greeting to you changes from "Your desire is my command" to "Something you need, my dear?"

Which in itself is a loss.  Oh well.  It's worth it for Ferelden to have a decent king.  But I've done the romance twice unhardened and once hardened.  It's nature doesn't particularly change in the way it plays out.  Alistair's hardening will mostly affect other things in the plot, but not those cutscenes.

Okay, a rather embarassing, kinda newbish question here....

What on earth do folks mean when they say "harden" one of the companions? I thought it meant, you know, getting them into the sack. But from your post here, it seems to imply a slightly different state than just having sex with them?

[Recidiva]

Aeronwy Diobhell wrote...

Okay, a rather embarassing, kinda newbish question here....

What on earth do folks mean when they say "harden" one of the companions? I thought it meant, you know, getting them into the sack. But from your post here, it seems to imply a slightly different state than just having sex with them?

There are two characters whose personalities can be altered by their personal "Companions" side quest.  Leliana and Alistair.

In Alistair's case, it's a specific way you encourage him to behave after he meets his sister, Goldanna, and has a personality crisis.

In Leliana's case, it's a specific way you lead the conversation after she meets Marjolaine.

They're both very "good" characters, but it's possible to make their personalities shift slightly.  In Lel's case, she'll embrace being an assassin.  In Alistair's case, he'll embrace thinking more for himself and thinking more about what he wants.  I'm not really sure how this affect's Lel's romance or story.

But in Alistar's case, he becomes more willing and interested in being king, and more able to loosen up the chastity belt.

At the Landsmeet, unhardened, he broke up with one of my characters and there was nothing I could do.

Hardened, he tries to break up, I convince him being King isn't a punishment, and he says "You're right.  Can you forgive me for bringing it up?"
"Yes.  But you'll have to work for it."
"Saucy!  Well, we'll discuss my "punishment" later."

It really revolves mostly plot-wise around being King and his attitudes toward it.  The only other thing is that if you go to Isabel and Alistair is hardened, you can have a three way.

[Riona45]

Great news, if anyone cares!



It turns out that all I had left to do was Alistair's personal quest (where he meets his sister). I went through that, calmed him down, got the conversation where he finally confesses he loves me (the approval meter changed from "adore" to "love"). I went back to camp, then he asked to sleep with me.



Thank you all for your help.