55 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

I know know, going through all that conversation again gets tiresome. And there are always bound to be people who will complain 'why can't I refuse the cup and still live' and nobody's happy.

[ReubenLiew]

And how you've peaked my royal intrest. What IS this non-standard game-over in Fallout 3? I've never heard mention of it.

[The Angry One]

Why can't I refuse the Joining?
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Why can't I refuse the Joining and battle Duncan in a last stand?
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Why can't I refuse the Joining and battle Duncan in a last stand and win?
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Why can't I refuse the Joining and battle Duncan in a last stand and win and play the rest of the game?

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:51 .

[Cyberpunk]

What if the player kills Duncan? Maybe you should be able to side with Loghain and just do things his way?

[The Angry One]

ReubenLiew wrote...

And how you've peaked my royal intrest. What IS this non-standard game-over in Fallout 3? I've never heard mention of it.

Alright since you asked.
When Colonel Autumn has you in a cage and interrogates you for the code, just give it to him. He has the purifier turned on and then shoots you dead.
You know just in case you thought the guy had any depth to him at all lols.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:51 .

[Taritu]

I agree. You can refuse, then Duncan will kill you (hell, play it out. Make him level 20, in epic gear, and have him one shot you). Game over, you can start again and play a character smart enough not to refuse. If you win somehow by cheating, game over anyway, since if you're not a gray warden the rest of the game doesn't happen. Skip to cut scene of the Blight completely overrunning Ferelden.

This isn't a sandbox game.  If you want to play a sandbox game, go play one.

Modifié par Taritu, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[Taleroth]

I think that you should be given the option to kill Alistair and support Loghain's regime.



Cauthrian would be the romance. Howe would be the group rogue. Uldred the mage.

[ReubenLiew]

Well thats just silly >< But not too surprising I guess, the guy's a right down b********.

[tkaz85]

Having choices is only good if all choices are equally meaningful. Choices that result in a "Game Over" screen are rarely if ever meaningful, because all they do is force the player to reload his/her last save and make the "right" choice. I would rather not be able to make that choice and spare myself the extra loading time.

[EricHVela]

For those that didn't bother to read:

The OP stated that story-breaking options should be allowed in that they will kill the player character or otherwise end his/her journey. This is not about sandbox playing. This is about corralling the story a little differently.

In the case of the Joining, I would have the scene end with Alistair saying something silly but still sad. I wouldn't have just "Your Journey Has Ended". I would have each story-breaking option have a cut-scene to end the story there... maybe even be so cruel as to have a small set of branches that all end the story if you break off the primary story... or worse yet: Allow the player to continue, but die/end later because of that story-breaking choice. Ooh!

If the devs live on the bitter tears of the fans, they would dine well with that last one.

[EricHVela]

tkaz85 wrote...

Having choices is only good if all choices are equally meaningful. Choices that result in a "Game Over" screen are rarely if ever meaningful, because all they do is force the player to reload his/her last save and make the "right" choice. I would rather not be able to make that choice and spare myself the extra loading time.

There are plenty of dead-end choices in CYOA stories. You just flip back to the last page and go on from there with the a different option (and in the case of two books I've read way back before most of you were born, many pages back due to a branch that always ended up dead).

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Why can't I refuse the Joining and battle Duncan in a last stand and win and play the rest of the game?

Because if nothing else the final battle of the game requires you to be a Grey Warden in order to defeat the main enemy?

Not to mention you're not going to get any support based on ancient treaties with Grey Wardens when you also aren't one, so that cuts out 3/4th of the content right there...

[Fantazm1978]

The first words of the synopsis on the back of the box says........



"You are a Grey Warden"

[EricHVela]

ReggarBlane wrote...

For those that didn't bother to read:

The OP stated that story-breaking options should be allowed in that they will kill the player character or otherwise end his/her journey. This is not about sandbox playing. This is about corralling the story a little differently.

Ahem.

ReggarBlane wrote...

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:43 .

[Zenon]

Actually this thread is silly, but seeing it going on like this I can't hold myself back: How about playing a game, where the story doesn't matter? It's obvious, that becoming a Grey Warden is a must. Even without the right of conscription the hero or heroine has quite an incentive to go with Duncan. (Especially from the Dalish origin.) Learning, that the joining can be lethal is revealed just before the character is supposed to drink the blood. There is no turning back at this point. And don't be ridiculous considering your young hero would stand a chance against Duncan, who surely is more than 10-15 levels above the hero. Besides Alistair would have helped Duncan, if he got into trouble with the PC. I guess every half-witted character should realize, that there is no way to turn back.

Perhaps this is supposed to give the player the feeling of being stuck with an overwhelming situation, even more so after the battle at Ostagar. That's how the dark plot of the story unfolds.

You sound a bit like someone, who would complain about Peter Parker not having had a choice of being bitten by the spider becoming Spider-Man. Well, without this incident the whole story wouldn't make sense, would it?

Modifié par Zenon, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[Taleroth]

ReggarBlane wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

For those that didn't bother to read:

The OP stated that story-breaking options should be allowed in that they will kill the player character or otherwise end his/her journey. This is not about sandbox playing. This is about corralling the story a little differently.

Ahem.

ReggarBlane wrote...

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

I think it takes away meaning if the alternative choices are traps.  Choices only have meaning when they're all viable.

[Cyberpunk]

Choose to side with Loghain and screw the Grey Wardens! I'm sure he has a plan with Uldred to deal with the Darkspawn in a way that doesn't need Grey Wardens. I mean he is a reliable general. Maybe you can even become King .

[EricHVela]

Taleroth wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

I think it takes away meaning if the alternative choices are traps.  Choices only have meaning when they're all viable.

If you live in a world where all choices are viable, then you live in a blessed state of being. There are many dead-end choices in life. Knowing why they're dead ends is part of it all (and yet, some still fall for them).

[Taleroth]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

I think it takes away meaning if the alternative choices are traps.  Choices only have meaning when they're all viable.

If you live in a world where all choices are viable, then you live in a blessed state of being. There are many dead-end choices in life. Knowing why they're dead ends is part of it all (and yet, some still fall for them).

You can spout rhetoric about realism all you want.  But it's meaningful choice we're discussing, not realistic choice.  In reality, you don't have a reload option.  This changes the nature of choices rather drastically.

[EricHVela]

Taleroth wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

I think it takes away meaning if the alternative choices are traps.  Choices only have meaning when they're all viable.

If you live in a world where all choices are viable, then you live in a blessed state of being. There are many dead-end choices in life. Knowing why they're dead ends is part of it all (and yet, some still fall for them).

You can spout rhetoric about realism all you want.  But it's meaningful choice we're discussing, not realistic choice.  In reality, you don't have a reload option.  This changes the nature of choices rather drastically.

You can spout rhetoric about the lack of realism all you want. Have you seen the flood of questions on the forums why they can't make other choices in those situations?

Some people would prefer the option to have it explained why they can't do certain things. The rest have the choice to simply not choose them. If those people feel so inticed to try to break out of the game, then they get what they deserve... especially in a game where the story is supposed to center around consequences.

It's the same story, but with further explanation why certain major turns must flow a certain way. If you feel that explanations take away from the meaning of things, then there is no common ground to discuss this further.

[Zenon]

If you don't want to become a Grey Warden, uninstall the game and play something else. The story only works with the player choosing the path of a Grey Warden. Similar to Mass Effect, where you can't choose not to become Spectre. And in NWN2 you can't choose to just have the shard in your chest be removed and abandon your destiny. In KotOR you basically have no choice but to find Bastila. In Jade Empire you have no choice, but to go after your old Master.



I don't get it why you want a choice, which basically instantly leads to "Your journey ends here." screen with a reload option. For that answer you should in fact get the uninstall dialogue screen.

[EricHVela]

Zenon wrote...

I don't get it why you want a choice, which basically instantly leads to "Your journey ends here." screen with a reload option. For that answer you should in fact get the uninstall dialogue screen.

Sounds to me like you to like people to have no choices if you don't understand them. For one, it's not a simple "journey end goodbye". It's an explanation why the journey ends as a consequence. For two, why is it important to deny others of such a feature?

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[Zenon]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

I think it adds meaning if you see why the alternate choice is a bad one rather than not getting the choice at all.

I think it takes away meaning if the alternative choices are traps.  Choices only have meaning when they're all viable.

If you live in a world where all choices are viable, then you live in a blessed state of being. There are many dead-end choices in life. Knowing why they're dead ends is part of it all (and yet, some still fall for them).

You can spout rhetoric about realism all you want.  But it's meaningful choice we're discussing, not realistic choice.  In reality, you don't have a reload option.  This changes the nature of choices rather drastically.

You can spout rhetoric about the lack of realism all you want. Have you seen the flood of questions on the forums why they can't make other choices in those situations?

Some people would prefer the option to have it explained why they can't do certain things. The rest have the choice to simply not choose them. If those people feel so inticed to try to break out of the game, then they get what they deserve... especially in a game where the story is supposed to center around consequences.

It's the same story, but with further explanation why certain major turns must flow a certain way. If you feel that explanations take away from the meaning of things, then there is no common ground to discuss this further.

It can't be that difficult to understand the moment you are being handed the chalice with the blood, that there is no other choice but drinking it. Asking for an extra choice after all explanations given in dialogue, codex, cut-scenes (other recruit getting killed for resisting the ritual) seems quite retarded and stubborn to me. Gosh, I wonder why I care writing so much about this. Stop asking for ridiculous choices. Drives me crazy.

[Taleroth]

ReggarBlane wrote...

 especially in a game where the story is supposed to center around consequences.

The story of this game does not center around consequences.  It's largely devoid of consequence.

It's the same story, but with further explanation why certain major turns must flow a certain way. If you feel that explanations take away from the meaning of things, then there is no common ground to discuss this further.

Except you're not asking for an explanation.  You're asking for a dead end scenario you wish to believe explains something.  The scenario is not inherently a dead end, except that you feel it should be.

Game development should not account for all potential scenarios.  And just because you suspect it would lead to a dead end is not an "explanation" of alternative choices.  There's a distinct lack of imagination here, both in thinking people need this "explanation" and thinking this so-called explanation is the only potential outcome.

Modifié par Taleroth, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:34 .

[Zenon]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Zenon wrote...

I don't get it why you want a choice, which basically instantly leads to "Your journey ends here." screen with a reload option. For that answer you should in fact get the uninstall dialogue screen.

Sounds to me like you to like people to have no choices if you don't understand them. For one, it's not a simple "journey end goodbye". It's an explanation why the journey ends as a consequence. For two, why is it important to deny others of such a feature?

Ok, the OP actually asks for the player char to be able to make his/her choice before even departing to Ostagar. At this point it may make a little more sense than after arriving in Ostagar. Point taken.

But then let's see where this will lead. I don't think Duncan would attack and kill a promising recruit. Actually I understood the right of conscription to be especially used to ask superiors for their underlings. Anyway, here goes:

City Elf: Will go to jail and most likely be executed soon. (Dunno what happens if you accept the gold-offer, but most likely the outcome will be similar.)

Dalish Elf: Will die from poison soon.

Dwarf commoner: Will probably be imprisoned again.

Dwarf noble: Will die fighting Darkspawn sooner or later in the Deep Roads.

Human noble: Will quite likely die either by his home surrounding enemies or die in a most likely futile attempt going for vengeance directly without allies.

Mage: Will stay imprisoned in the tower, possibly be punished. Most likely becomes victim to the plot in the mage tower later. This might be a possible side-line plot or extension of the origin before joining the Grey Wardens, but IMHO there is not much gained this way.

All except the Human noble basically have no chance to escape or survive the origin without Duncan. Most likely anyone surviving for a while longer will be swallowed up by the darkspawn.

The outcomes of refusing to join the Grey Wardens are in most cases so obvious, that denying it makes little sense. In most cases the char can't even just walk away. Learn to accept your fate, it makes life less painful.