69 réponses à ce sujet

[Auraad]

Did anyone else miss darkness in this game?

Admitted, there are a few dark moments (a dark background story here, a trench filled with darkspawn there …), but generally I didn’t feel it was all too dark (feeling wise). For my taste, a little more (felt) darkness would have been nice. At no time did I have the feeling that the fate of the world was at stake or sth like this.
Also, the arch demon was NO demon! It’s a friggin’ dragon, g*d*it! I want real demons (DA:O copied so much from LotR, I wished they would have copied the demon as well).
I thought about why this was and have come up with 3 points:

• It could have been the longish story telling. Each time I read the zillion pages of texts (be it conversations or codex entries), the flow of the game gets stopped and the dark feeling interrupted.
• The sound track did not support the darkness enough. I remember the good music in BG … *sigh*
• Probably the most comprehensive point: the lack of the “good forces”! Yes, you did not misread: the *missing* of the good forces! Why is that? Well, in DA:O we only have darkness – some really dark darkness and some other more greyish darkness. So the result is, that the difference between the *really* dark things (that are supposed to be like really, really, really dark) don’t get recognized so intensely, because there is the greyish darkness on the upper scale… you get the idea? If there would be a bigger delta between the really, really bad stuff, and “the hope” with good things (eg angels or whatever) the evil things would come across even more evil…put in other words: the really bad darkness (the dark spawn and arch dragon … err, demon) could only have eradicated a land you would not have felt sorry with – where was the good king, etc? So, ultimately, Bioware failed their hopes to create a dark fantasy world in that they *only* have darkness … (only where is light can be darkness – they seem to have forgotten this … remember, when the room is dark you can’t see anything)

Most dark moments in the game:
- Human noble: leaving dying dad and brave mom behind
- The deep ways filled with dark spawn
- The (too short!) story to the brood mother (got me freakin’)
On the other hand, potentially dark moments (or moments that should’ve been, but weren’t):
- the arch demon – is a dragon (I killed two of them already Flemeth and high dragon) – was a joke
- loss at Ostagar
- everything else
Thanx for sharing your thoughts on this.

[Boeresmurf]

hmm one of the dark things i experienced..

the ending of conner's demon.



suicide of the mother to let u fight demon.

or kill the boy and slap the mother.....

[Rhys Cordelle]

It's made clear throughout the game that the archdemon is a corrupted dragon. Were you surprised?



This game is about shades of grey. If it was good vs evil it would be like every other fantasy genre game out there. If blood sacrifices, massacres, betrayal, corruption, mindless hordes of ruthless killers and Sandel aren't dark enough for you, I don't know what would be.

[SardaukarElite]

I think the real problem with the darkness in DA is that too many problems have an everybody wins solution.



Choosing between killing Connor or sacrificing Isabeau Isolode, is a great dark moment. Until you realise that you can just stroll up to the Circle and get them to fix it without anybody being sacrificed for the greater good.



Likewise, the werewolves can be cured without harming any of them and the Dalish all get better and go on with fighting the Blight merrily.



You might have a point with the length as well. The blight seems to be a fairly placid and thoughtful ancient evil.

[Rhys Cordelle]

SardaukarElite wrote...

I think the real problem with the darkness in DA is that too many problems have an everybody wins solution.

Choosing between killing Connor or sacrificing Isabeau Isolode, is a great dark moment. Until you realise that you can just stroll up to the Circle and get them to fix it without anybody being sacrificed for the greater good.

Likewise, the werewolves can be cured without harming any of them and the Dalish all get better and go on with fighting the Blight merrily.

You might have a point with the length as well. The blight seems to be a fairly placid and thoughtful ancient evil.

True but the "less dark" solutions are often not as obvious. In my first playthrough I didn't discover a way to cure the werewolves because I chose to side with them. And I didn't know I could solve the connor issue without someone dying so I went with the blood magic. Despite these decisions I still considered my character to be a fairly light shade of grey.

[Boeresmurf]

but all the good options take longer ( travel) or digging deep in politics.. if u are quick to judge its more likely to get 1 side happy and 1 side.... hm.. less hapy



which is pretty realistic, that you have to work harder to get both parties in a discussion satisfied then quickly judge and burn 1 group to the ground.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Probably the most comprehensive point: the lack of the “good forces”! Yes, you did not misread: the *missing* of the good forces!

IMO, you're wrong on that. "Good forces" make good contrast to the prime evil, but are way overused. And, more importantly, I don't they are even needed. A "pure good" forces would question resorting to such measures as using the very taint that causes the darkness to fight it. I like it this way. It's more realistic, it's gets you to believe in it.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Yah. It's about the people overcoming the Blight. Deus Ex Machina from the Maker and his angels would've been laaaaaame.

[smelph]

yeah aside from the occasional "dudes hanging from a log" (kolcari wilds) or jory getting murdered in cold blood for no good reason I really am not seeing that much that says "dark" to me. it's a great fantasy game, but it seems like the "darkness" level could have been turned up a notch.



and yeah, being able to just go get the mages instead of sacrificing isolde kind of robbed that whole episode of its darkness.

[telephasic]

I think you're defining dark in the wrong way here. Look at how the game differs from standard fantasy tropes. Elves are racially discriminated against, and either have a hard life in ghettos/as servants, or live as poor nomads. Dwarves have a very rigid caste system, and those on the bottom are treated like living garbage by the rest. Templars are essentially drug addicts, and you can run drugs for them in two different quests. Instead of a cheerful, drunken dwarf companion, you get an abrasive alcoholic with deep issues.



The game is dark insofar as there is no "purity" that the darkspawn are corrupting or destroying. It's a realistic world with real problems just like Earth.

[Auraad]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Probably the most comprehensive point: the lack of the “good forces”! Yes, you did not misread: the *missing* of the good forces!

IMO, you're wrong on that. "Good forces" make good contrast to the prime evil, but are way overused. And, more importantly, I don't they are even needed. A "pure good" forces would question resorting to such measures as using the very taint that causes the darkness to fight it. I like it this way. It's more realistic, it's gets you to believe in it.

I don't agree on that - naturally

IF there are the evil forces (and there obviously are), then where are the good forces? Evil can only be, when there is good (or vice versa).
Also, this whole world is so dark and rotten, a hero couldn't care less if Ferelden is overrun by the darkspawn or not - they're really not worth the effort. In my next run thru I'll play a "I couldn't care less" hero and see how it works out.

[Walina]

I sincerely didn't found any greyish moment, there were always a good side and a bad side to choose.

The only moment you can't, it's at the orphenage, children were killed, their souls at trapped, you culdn't do anything to prevent that and none cared abut it exept a kind templar.

[Dakota Strider]

Well with the toolset, I am sure there will be plenty of mods soon enough that will be dark enough for those that desire that atmosphere. I thought the story was great, and gritty enough, dark or otherwise. I do not believe that anyone would mistake this for some light-hearted romp. If Bioware would allow this to go too much farther to the darkside, I think it would lose sales. I do not believe the "hardcore darkness" fans, make up a large enough niche of the market, to make it worth their while to make a game of this size and quality that would appeal only to them.



And you truly did not feel Helspith and the broodmother was a seriously dark part of the game? Learning what is the fate of darkspawn prisoners, in detail seems like the writers lived up to the promise of this being a dark fantasy.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Auraad wrote...
IF there are the evil forces (and there obviously are), then where are the good forces? Evil can only be, when there is good (or vice versa).

You could say that "Good" by its nature defies violence, so you cannot have "good forces" actively fight the evil. 
Or, you could view this as the old story about humanity having to redeem its past sins (in this case - Tevinter mages trying to seize the Golden City).
By the way, "good" and "evil" only exist in the sentient mind. They are memes, not actual objective forces like gravity.

[Duck and Cover]

ya, why does the sun never go down in this game (other than by the mages tower and the redcliffe invasion)

JK, I know he's talking about the other kind of darkness. It is a dark game, but it could have went much further. But I think if they went too far, there would be complaints from christian groups and the like.

Modifié par Duck and Cover, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:52 .

[Dunhart]

Also, for a dark fantasy game, Dragon Age does a lot of self-censoring. Strongest word used is probably canine of the female persuasion. Sex always happens off screen, except the romantic kind and even that is done with underwear still on.



This is not necessarily bad. Delving too much into such things is a capital offence in any fantasy, excess swearing is lame and flat out porn is at the very least tasteless, but I think Bioware could have handled the 'naked truth' responsibly, if they had desired to.

[Auraad]

I agree with some of your replies.

Of course, if they went even deeper down the dark road, there might have been major complaints from certain groups ...

However, this is not what I mean ... they could have created an "even darker" adventure NOT by showing more of the dark stuff (really, how much rape and brood mother can one bear?), BUT to show some light stuff. This would make the "felt darkness" bigger, without actually being more dark - get the idea?



@Alex S.: No, your're wrong. In *this* game evil exists as a real, physical force: at least I percepted the darkaspawn and arch demon that way. So, it's not all "mind made up" ... in this way they followed very much the D&D path from their past (save the good forces, once again).

[Alex Savchovsky]

Auraad wrote...
@Alex S.: No, your're wrong. In *this* game evil exists as a real, physical force: at least I percepted the darkaspawn and arch demon that way.

That is the point. You percepted them as evil. As I did. But "evil" is a moral category, which is, by definition, subjective... and only has a meaning for sentient beings. Just as "good" is. And I am sure you did percept something in the game as "good". Yet still you're not satisfied, you want a horde of Light to oppose the horde of Darkness. Why? Must we always resort to the cliche about defeating darkness and corruption with light and purity? The very sacrifices that makes the Grey Wardens deeds... well - grey... make their choice more meaningful, more involving. They sacrifice everything, they know it and they know why they do it. This makes them far superior to a hypothetical paladin or celestial legion which is fighting the darkspawn "because we're good and they're evil".

[Behindyounow]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...


This game is about shades of grey. If it was good vs evil it would be like every other fantasy genre game out there. If blood sacrifices, massacres, betrayal, corruption, mindless hordes of ruthless killers and Sandel aren't dark enough for you, I don't know what would be.

Shades of grey isn't dark though. The better dark storys are about neutral vs evil.

[Auraad]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Auraad wrote...
@Alex S.: No, your're wrong. In *this* game evil exists as a real, physical force: at least I percepted the darkaspawn and arch demon that way.

That is the point. You percepted them as evil. As I did. But "evil" is a moral category, which is, by definition, subjective... and only has a meaning for sentient beings. Just as "good" is. And I am sure you did percept something in the game as "good". Yet still you're not satisfied, you want a horde of Light to oppose the horde of Darkness. Why? Must we always resort to the cliche about defeating darkness and corruption with light and purity? The very sacrifices that makes the Grey Wardens deeds... well - grey... make their choice more meaningful, more involving. They sacrifice everything, they know it and they know why they do it. This makes them far superior to a hypothetical paladin or celestial legion which is fighting the darkspawn "because we're good and they're evil".

Not quite ... ultimately it does NOT matter WHO does the job - a pure paladin or a pure grey warden. Of course, the pure paladin is much cooler...
Also, how a paladin plays out (to stick with your comparison) is up to the player, not you. There are paladins out there who fight evil because they know it's right (they want to protect the innocent for ex.), not just because they "are good" ... (if you would have played - well you prolly have, but you don't sound like it - an "old shool" paladin you would know that he gets his powers not because he "is good", but because he ACTS good - there is the difference).
Also, again your statement is false: in this game there obviously IS the bad side - after all, the all consuming arch demon IS evil, other could he not be desrived, he is so twisted and consumed by evil, that you can't even talk to him and reason with him to take on a more greyish view upon the land the people ... no, he just wants to get all "grey people" down ... so, a physical manifestation of pure evil.
Again, I repeat it: Bioware only took 50% of the universe - the evil side ... (at least in this game, they'll prolly come up with the other 50% in  a follow up ... who knows?)

[Alex Savchovsky]

@Auraad:

Disagree on paladin being cooler. Well, I never really liked paladins, to be honest, probably because most paladins I encountered tend to be Miko Miyazaki in disguise.

But on the other hand... you *could* play the game as a paladin. Do whatever is "right", attack the demons outright (I can hear the "slash! slash! slash! slash!" already), etc.

So I still do not understand - WHY do you want an army on angels or whatever? They would feel out of place in this world. Just as "out of place" as the darkspawn, with the exception that the darkspawn have a purpose. What would the forces of light ever want from this world?

[Alneverus]

Walina wrote...

I sincerely didn't found any greyish moment, there were always a good side and a bad side to choose.

I'd agree with this statement. When you look at the overall setting the game is basically attempting to give the 'Dark Ages' feel, but far lighter. Things such as death should seem more common place. Politics, caste, etc. should seem more prominent in the mind and hold this darker feeling. When the statement is made 'Grey Warden's do what they must to defeat the Blight' the player should have been given more 'either a lot of "innocent" people die or something else happens'.

Also, another major point of interest, if Loghain has you branded a traitor, why is it only Lothering really has anything in regards to this? Or that stupid knight in the Market District? There are a lot of things that could have been done to make the game have a darker feeling that simply weren't done.

Honestly, the game should have ran a more brutal approach more focused on the general 'era' it attempted to be set in. To use Redcliffe as an example; you leave for the mage tower to get help. You come back and the situation is worse and more people died. This kind of opinion is reflected by the survivors.

[Ancastna]

I would say the Undead coming out of the Castle at Redcliffe. Wasn't dark, but it made me feel abit... anxious.

[Shiro_the_Gambler]

telephasic wrote...

I think you're defining dark in the wrong way here. Look at how the game differs from standard fantasy tropes. Elves are racially discriminated against, and either have a hard life in ghettos/as servants, or live as poor nomads. Dwarves have a very rigid caste system, and those on the bottom are treated like living garbage by the rest. Templars are essentially drug addicts, and you can run drugs for them in two different quests. Instead of a cheerful, drunken dwarf companion, you get an abrasive alcoholic with deep issues.

The game is dark insofar as there is no "purity" that the darkspawn are corrupting or destroying. It's a realistic world with real problems just like Earth.

Nailed it.  Let's not forget:

• Dwarf politics are probably the most cutthroat I've ever seen.
• Mages live under constant threats of death and demonic posession.
• The most carefree party member is an assassin who was purchased in a slave market as a child.

[Paperghost]

Shiro_the_Gambler wrote...

telephasic wrote...

I think you're defining dark in the wrong way here. Look at how the game differs from standard fantasy tropes. Elves are racially discriminated against, and either have a hard life in ghettos/as servants, or live as poor nomads. Dwarves have a very rigid caste system, and those on the bottom are treated like living garbage by the rest. Templars are essentially drug addicts, and you can run drugs for them in two different quests. Instead of a cheerful, drunken dwarf companion, you get an abrasive alcoholic with deep issues.

The game is dark insofar as there is no "purity" that the darkspawn are corrupting or destroying. It's a realistic world with real problems just like Earth.

Nailed it.  Let's not forget:

• Dwarf politics are probably the most cutthroat I've ever seen.
• Mages live under constant threats of death and demonic posession.
• The most carefree party member is an assassin who was purchased in a slave market as a child.

...and the majority of your "team" spend most of their time together infighting, insulting and generally antagonising one another. Don't think I've ever seen such an uneasy alliance of a main cast in a game before, especially shocking are some of the moments where certain individuals will storm off depending on your actions, or indeed attack you. That alone makes me take notice, even before you get to the points mentioned above. (and let's not forget Leliana, whose backstory reveal hints at some depressingly horrible "torture" - I'm sure we can read between the lines there).

Also, OP: I really wish people wouldn't cite Lord of the Rings as some kind of main source for this game. There are pieces of fiction that the game leans on much more heavily than LoTR, which is so broad a canvas you could pretty much point to any piece of fantasy and say "this is cribbed from here, that is taken from there". It sort of suggests you need to expand your field of vision with regards fantasy writing more than it suggests the writers of Dragon Age need to stop whizzing from Tolkien.

Modifié par Paperghost, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:27 .