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[elearon1]

>> this whole world is so dark and rotten, a hero couldn't care less if Ferelden is overrun by the darkspawn or not <<



You're kidding, right? This is still your home, people you care for still live here ... your entire way of life - bleak or no - is on the verge of being wiped away. The fate of the survivors? Used as breeding stock and hive mothers ... maybe some get to be food as well. No matter how hard you might think your life is in Ferelden, it could become immeasurably worse.

[Auraad]

Also: there is no drive for the hero to strive for something "better" (which could be some sort of heaven, but needn't be). Ultimately, it just does not matter what you do ... act evil? No problem! There is no hell where you're gonna go later ... same the other way round: If you act particularly "good", you won't receive any "payment" (like eg. go to a better place) (ok, maybe you get called a hero and receive a party ... that's it!). So, ultimately it does not matter what you (as a hero) do ...



Compared to the BG series (for example), there it did make a difference ... for you and the world/Toril.

To me the world of Thedas (the Dragon Age setting) is incomplete and does not make much sense in this regard ...

[Auraad]

elearon1 wrote...

>> this whole world is so dark and rotten, a hero couldn't care less if Ferelden is overrun by the darkspawn or not

You're kidding, right? This is still your home, people you care for still live here ... your entire way of life - bleak or no - is on the verge of being wiped away. The fate of the survivors? Used as breeding stock and hive mothers ... maybe some get to be food as well. No matter how hard you might think your life is in Ferelden, it could become immeasurably worse.

Unfortunately not ... I really don't care. Bioware try their best (and they succeeded very well) in destroying the bonds of the hero to his home ... want examples? Here you go:
- human noble: your family gets totally eradicated (so, fighting for your beloved ones does not work out)
- mage background: the circle ... sorry, it's a prison (so not really worth fighting for)
- ... (put other backgrounds here)
- personal story: my love either gets king and drops me oder dies when fighting the arch demon ..

So - what's left? ...

[Roxlimn]

I think the fact that you're STILL fighting ancient incontrovertibly evil soldiers kind of solidifies this as basically a light-hearted romp with some "realz" issues being thrown in for the benefit of the teen-agers. At the end of the day, it's still pretty easy to point to a Darkspawn Emissary as the one wearing the black hat, and basically everyone else wearing a white one. Just because people are squabbling over who gets to wear the white hat doesn't make it all that "dark," or morally ambiguous IMO.



The horror is a side show, the game runs on the Power of Friendship, and you get to lead a united, multiracial force against an Evil Dragon. Put bright rainbow colors on the Warden and it's practically a children's show.

[Tripedius]

The world of Thedas might not be all fun & games, but among the people in Europe were also a lot of nasty people, who could easily have done the things that happen in game, but the US still came to free Europe during the second world war.



If you focus on single treacherous acts the human race is dispicable but on the whole it is worth saving. Just like in Dragon Age.



What I didnt like however were all those 'good' solutions. Like saving Connor through the circle of magi. Nothing happens, there are no repercussions. You can take weeks, months, years and still the outcome isn't worse than sacreficing the mother or the child. No wonder you will pick this way out. I would have thought maybe the demon would kill more people (likke Teagan) when you're travelling but no. Now this isnt really a choice. Kill one or don't kill anyone.

Same with the end story, the 'best' solution is so much better than killing someone. At least with the redemption of the werewolves two people 'die'.

[Recidiva]

I found bits of it very dark. Particularly the city elf starting story.



What this game has better down is the comedy relief aspect that manages to break the dark tone and provide a roller coaster effect instead of just a steady "DUN DUN DUUUUUN"



Depending on the choices you make, by the end, the world can be much worse than when you started.



Connor and Isolde got to me. The plight of Jowan got to me. Elves being treated like sexual cattle got to me.



Lots of it got to me. For me the experience was dark and fairly hard core emotionally and through not showing everything, but certainly suggesting things. Playing through on different origins made it look darker. Particularly if you play through and see how some of the fairly ignorant choices you can make (say being an elf not knowing what's going on in Orzammar) can give a pang of conscience later.



The whole thing's one big pang of conscience, and I think they sold it.



If you don't have a conscience and you don't care really and death, slavery, horror, oppression, rape, betrayal in horrible ways and trying to fight or use that doesn't qualify as dark...then what IS dark?



It's a lot more grey than black. But there's plenty of dark bits.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Auraad wrote...

Also: there is no drive for the hero to strive for something "better" (which could be some sort of heaven, but needn't be). Ultimately, it just does not matter what you do ... act evil? No problem! There is no hell where you're gonna go later ... same the other way round: If you act particularly "good", you won't receive any "payment" (like eg. go to a better place) (ok, maybe you get called a hero and receive a party ... that's it!). So, ultimately it does not matter what you (as a hero) do ...

Awww, come on. You don't really mean it, do you? Fear of hell and desire to reach an afterlife heaven are so pathetic and primitive motives to be good.

[Curlain]

On thing I do agree with is there should have been more consequences with Connor if you didn't use Jowan's blood ritual (or kill the possessed kid) and went of to get help instead from the Mage Circle. When I took this option Tegan implied that the delay could have potenially negative consequences (which makes sense really, why would the demon just hang around for 2 days or more while you got a bunch of mage exorcisers together?), and I was fully expecting something disasterous to have occurred at Redcliffe castle when I returned due to my decision, but everything was fine. So yeah, there could be more serious repercussions to taking that route

Modifié par Curlain, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:39 .

[Auraad]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Auraad wrote...

Also: there is no drive for the hero to strive for something "better" (which could be some sort of heaven, but needn't be). Ultimately, it just does not matter what you do ... act evil? No problem! There is no hell where you're gonna go later ... same the other way round: If you act particularly "good", you won't receive any "payment" (like eg. go to a better place) (ok, maybe you get called a hero and receive a party ... that's it!). So, ultimately it does not matter what you (as a hero) do ...

Awww, come on. You don't really mean it, do you? Fear of hell and desire to reach an afterlife heaven are so pathetic and primitive motives to be good.

Just as an example!
But here, you don't have any motivation for doing good things (because doing bad things wont get you in jail either)

You could argue the other way round: why are the darkspawn so eager to eradicate the world? Because its fun?

[Fishy]

Well if you want to hear something Dark..
In Orlais the Knight can rape any commoner and it's not considered a crime.
So why Leliana brag about the Beauty of Orlais.When you hear the girl talk about that in Denerim .. your arms drop off.

[Roxlimn]

That's how it is in most medieval tales, actually. That's definitely how it is in the Belgariad, and that's a pretty light-hearted story as fantasy goes.



Rape and sexual slavery are realities and have always been realities - they are reflected in many normal stories that aren't put through a North American review board for children. That doesn't mean that having them in a story, especially as side commentary of practices in a faraway land, makes that story especially "dark" or anything.



Heroes in Middle Eastern, Asian, and European fantasy occasionally have gifts of women given to them. Anyone think those women do this voluntarily, or that the hero doesn't take advantage of the courtesy?

[Elanareon]

IMO what removed the "dark" portion of the game was the hilarity of some of the companions. I'm not saying its bad but, yeah, the humor of the companions makes it feel light...



And some consequences for some "good" solutions. Like the one in redcliffe, I mean Connor wasn't doing anything the whole time you were away at the mages tower?



It would've been nice as well if there was a time limit or maybe some areas being destroyed as you progress through the story, not just lothering. For example Brecilian forest being devoured by the horde if you took long enough to recruit them. Well, i don't think that would work but it's a good idea

[Roxlimn]

There ISN'T any darkness in this TO remove.



You cannot side with the Darkspawn.

You cannot choose to force people to give in to your desires. You never control slaves.

You go around the world on a mission of hope and unity.

You unite a kingdom suffering under civil war.

You lead a rag-tag bunch of disparate peoples who'd fit under a Benetton commercial.

You cannot indulge in the genocide of non-monster peoples.

You do not labor under hopeless odds and few major characters actually even die if they're not your enemies.

Even if you'd failed the world doesn't actually end.



In every locale you visit, you unite people and inspire them to march under your banner. How is this "dark?" About the worse thing you can do is side with Branka and then you get to have Golem-slaves inducted into your army. Most of the horror in that is offscreen - you don't actually get to PERSONALLY kill people under the hammer to turn them into artificial slaves.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Auraad wrote...

Just as an example!
But here, you don't have any motivation for doing good things (because doing bad things wont get you in jail either)

But this is ultimately good in this game!
Your character finds himself in a unique position, since Ferelden needs him desperately. So he can do whatever he wants to - without any outside motivation! This is like the ultimate personality test. Have your character prove himself! Grab the power and see if it corrupts him or his personality is strong enough to resist it. It's a challenge that I very much like.

P.S. 
The darkspawn invasion could be viewed as an attempt to become a dominant species on the world. It's way better explanation than "umm.. because they're evil".

[Curlain]

The darkspawn are like a disease or swarm of locusts, and just like those can be seen as not actually evil (since there is no direct evil intent as such), and we don't know exactly what drives the majority of darkspawn it's also clear like a virus pandemic that there is also no co-existance or reasoning with them either as such

[Roxlimn]

That kind of makes this even less dark! Hey, romp around the world and get rid of pestilence by uniting everyone under your banner? Sure. Where's the spandex uniforms?



What would make the game truly dark is if there were some way to inject a pervading sense of horror or hopelessness in it (not that I would want that). For instance:



It's revealed that Grey Wardens when they head into the Deep Roads actually BECOME Archdemons and intelligent Broodmothers, according to their gender. The human-form Grey Wardens keep it all a secret because they're running a scam that allows them to essentially control world politics. Your character is supposed to perpetuate this lie.

[Behindyounow]

Roxlimn wrote...

That kind of makes this even less dark! Hey, romp around the world and get rid of pestilence by uniting everyone under your banner? Sure. Where's the spandex uniforms?

What would make the game truly dark is if there were some way to inject a pervading sense of horror or hopelessness in it (not that I would want that). For instance:

It's revealed that Grey Wardens when they head into the Deep Roads actually BECOME Archdemons and intelligent Broodmothers, according to their gender. The human-form Grey Wardens keep it all a secret because they're running a scam that allows them to essentially control world politics. Your character is supposed to perpetuate this lie.

I agree. Having a mindless dragon being the main antagonist (and for no other reason than doing evil for the sake of evil) was a major let down. Hell, a smart darkspawn like the architect would've been better than a mutant dragon.

[Saurel]

I can generally see both points of the arguement. I generally fall into the camp that it doesn't really fall into Dark Fantasy. Its hard to categorize though, if I had free reign to call it anything it would be "Jaded Heroic Fantasy" ,"Bitter Heroic Fantasy", or "Gritty Heroic Fantasy".



-Darkspawn and Demons are easily cast in a black & white light.

----------granted the Broodmother adds a disturbing dimension; but this isn't played up enough. The Darkspawns hatred of where they come from as suggested by Branka's lover.



- Plenty of characters seem to be nuanced and can't be easily cast into a lot as pure evil or good. But when it comes to in-game presentation that changes. Duncan and Loghain seem like typical "Oh I can tell hes bad just from how he looks. And vice versa"



--Heroics overshadow alot. "We are the Grey Wardens". "We're the Dalish, we may have been enslaved at some point but we rock you with our bows and survival skills!".



One man/woman can essentially unite a nation of different races and people. Despite odds greatly not in their favor.



--There are choices. Suchs as Danyla(sp?), Alistair/Loghain, Ritual/Sacrifice that are dark. But also seem a bit forced when compared to some quests (ala the way to save Connor and Isolde in Redcliffe).

[Saurel]

I should say I agree with the others about the Dwarf Origin. Its pretty perfect. You have characters equally sympathetic and loathsome. Even Bhelen isn't easily labeled. He ultimately means well (seemingly) and may just be a product of his environment. Whereas Trian may be a ****** he is ultimately loyal. The nobles may be cutthroats but still care about some individuals. And their trials and conservative society doesn't allow any fault .

[Bibdy]

What exactly do you think an Arch Demon would be? The darkspawn taint turns the creatures of the world into corrupted versions of themselves. And its not likely they have much in the way of society or hierarchy. It stands to reason, that the biggest, most badass creature in the world getting tainted by darkspawn would end up being the 'Alpha' of the pack.

[Saurel]

Bibdy wrote...

What exactly do you think an Arch Demon would be? The darkspawn taint turns the creatures of the world into corrupted versions of themselves. And its not likely they have much in the way of society or hierarchy. It stands to reason, that the biggest, most badass creature in the world getting tainted by darkspawn would end up being the 'Alpha' of the pack.

Sentient Broodmother

[Majspuffen]

In my opinion, I'd say this game is dark enough.

What is it you people want? An option to run off and hide in Orlais while the blight destroy Ferelden? You want to "side with the darkspawn"? How are you supposed to do that? "Hey, Darkspawn! Please capture me so that I can become a broodmother and produce an army for you!". If you could side with the darkspawn, then I'd thrown the game out the window.

The story is dark, if you read the codex there's seldom bright and happy entries. Like the golems, it's not like they create a statue and then use some silly magic to get them working. While we do not get to hear the tormented screams of the dwarves becoming golems in the game, it is what will happen should you save the anvil (I think, not sure about this one since I havn't done it myself). Knowing that is enough reason to destroy the forge in my opinion, even if the golems would be handy to protect against the darkspawn.

I agree with some points though, like, why is there no consequence if you decide to go and ask the mages for help to save Connor? Something should have happened. Although, even though we may know what will and what wont happen, when I play the game I play my character so that they have no idea what the outcome of any action will be. With my City Elf warrior, I killed Connor for the sake of the village. I did not trust Jowan, because of what Wynne said (something about what he could do with the power of Isolde's life). That's not an evil act in my opinion. Bann Teagan backed me up too, I even managed to talk to Alistair about it (not getting the -20 disapprove).

It can't be all darkness, otherwise I'd be surprised why my character wouldn't hang herself.

[Roxlimn]

Well, that's kind of what dark fantasy is, right? It's all about the horror and the hopelessness and despair. Even LOTR dealt in themes of hopelessness and despair, and no one refers to that as "dark fantasy."



I like this game just the way it is, but it's not dark - it's actually quite heroic. I mean, sure, your hero can be a jerk, but at the end of the day, he's a hero, and that's really what people want in a game like this. We want to have clearly labeled major antagonists to bash. We want to wear the white hats. And we do.



I mean, how is it that a choice between Alistair and Loghain is "dark?" One of them is a childish romantic overwrought with self-serving thoughts of revenge, and the other is a Machiavellian general who stops at nothing to save his country.



Neither choice is really dark. Go with one or the other, does it really matter? Loghain himself understands that he MUST be executed as a matter of policy - he probably thinks it's a bad idea not to kill him. You've already killed countless men and women. What's one more?

[Behindyounow]

Thats the thing. Ironically it cant really be dark with the darkspawn as the antagonists. They're just mindless idiots killing and burning for no reason.



If say, the Tevinter Imperium, or the Orlesians were the villains, there'd be plenty of opportunitys to side with them without seeming like an idiot.

[KalosCast]

As I mentioned in the other whine-thread. Dark Fantasy does not mean a sociopathy simulation.