69 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Majspuffen wrote...

In my opinion, I'd say this game is dark enough.

What is it you people want?

Naive idealism to be punished instead of constantly rewarded. That would be a good start.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:48 .

[Behindyounow]

Hear hear!

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



What makes you think I was whining? The fact that I like DAO just fine as it is, or the fact that I was openly asking for a discussion of the thread topic? If you don't like to talk about it, don't post.

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

Majspuffen wrote...

In my opinion, I'd say this game is dark enough.

What is it you people want?

Naive idealism to be punished instead of constantly rewarded. That would be a good start.

You should be punished!  While I get all excited and giggly over my giant robot anime that symbolize hope and the spirit of man overcoming dire circumstance.

Honestly, though, I'm okay either way.  But "naive idealism" tends to give more **** YEAH moments than cynicism.  Which instead just makes me want to buy more Discworld.

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:57 .

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

What makes you think I was whining? The fact that I like DAO just fine as it is, or the fact that I was openly asking for a discussion of the thread topic? If you don't like to talk about it, don't post.

Then I clearly must want to talk about it. The fact that you built your entire position on logical fallacy and outright dismiss other's points based on your own straw man arguments or altering your requirements after someone fulfills them makes it a whine-thread, in my own self-important opinion.

[marshalleck]

Taleroth wrote...

You should be punished!

True.

While I get all excited and giggly over my giant robot anime that symbolize hope and the spirit of man overcoming dire circumstance.

Okay, I'd settle for *occasionally* punished. The point that this is, at the end of the day, a heroic fantasy game is not lost on me. :innocent:

[Dunhart]

You don't have to make any sacrifices, there's always the goody two shoes option to every dilemma and there's usually no punishment for it. There's no real rush to do anything, so the only reason you'd have to choose the gray path is RP reasons, boredom, impatience or sheer maliciousness. Good guys always win, none of your companions die unless you want them to, et cetera.

There's only two exceptions to this that come to mind, Morrigan's ritual and the king of Ozrammar questline.

I don't personally object to this, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling when I can make everyone happy, but it's not exactly dark fantasy.

Modifié par Dunhart, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[ReubenLiew]

Where is the racism! I wan humans going around and calling elves 'Buoayah' in that American drawl while polishing their swords with huge, shiny, reflective sunglasses. And the prisons should be 80% elves!



Sentenced to life! Because they whistled too loudly!

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

You should be punished!

True.

While I get all excited and giggly over my giant robot anime that symbolize hope and the spirit of man overcoming dire circumstance.

Okay, I'd settle for *occasionally* punished. The point that this is, at the end of the day, a heroic fantasy game is not lost on me. :innocent:

I'm giving you a hard time.  I know where you're coming from and can sympathize.    I'm not without my desire to experience cynical work.

Earn Your Happy Ending is my favorite trope, after all.  And that's in the middle area of the scale.

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



If my arguments were ever completely undone by strawman fallacy, feel free to point them out. I certainly feel like I squarely addressed your statements, such as they are. My requirements you did not understand so I clarified them. That is not a logical fallacy.



For a description of logical fallacies, please use the Google search engine.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

If my arguments were ever completely undone by strawman fallacy, feel free to point them out. I certainly feel like I squarely addressed your statements, such as they are. My requirements you did not understand so I clarified them. That is not a logical fallacy.

For a description of logical fallacies, please use the Google search engine.

Well, there's claiming that my argument was based wholly in gore and shock value which I never claimed

There's the whole fact that you were arguing for most of the entirety of the thread that Dark Fantasy is something that it isn't

When I pointed out games featuring politics in a non-cynical fashion, they were dismissed as not being political enough, even while one of them is entirely about crowning an emperor and the other features a full quarter of the game about international politics and the Neverwinter legal system.

You can PM me if you want to take it further, but you have to promise not to regale me with stories about all those child-molesting assassins you fight off every day or something similar.

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:07 .

[Roxlimn]

No, I didn't say they were. I was asking you if they were. Check the statement again.

My point for most of the thread was that DAO was not any darker than normal fantasy. Check the argument line, please.

When you pointed out ideal politics in games that were not ABOUT politics, but about action and shooting stuff, yeah, that would tend not to count when talking about political games.

[marshalleck]

Taleroth wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

You should be punished!

True.

While I get all excited and giggly over my giant robot anime that symbolize hope and the spirit of man overcoming dire circumstance.

Okay, I'd settle for *occasionally* punished. The point that this is, at the end of the day, a heroic fantasy game is not lost on me. :innocent:

I'm giving you a hard time.  I know where you're coming from and can sympathize.    I'm not without my desire to experience cynical work.

Earn Your Happy Ending is my favorite trope, after all.  And that's in the middle area of the scale.

Heh, I know you were giving me a hard time.

The game as it is, is still very good. It's just not quite what it was advertised to be--as if the Sacred Ashes trailer and 30 Seconds to Mars track aren't far enough off the mark already.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

No, I didn't say they were. I was asking you if they were. Check the statement again.
My point for most of the thread was that DAO was not any darker than normal fantasy. Check the argument line, please.
When you pointed out ideal politics in games that were not ABOUT politics, but about action and shooting stuff, yeah, that would tend not to count when talking about political games.

Dragon Age, with the exception of the Loghain betrayal thing which barely anything is done with and the meta-plot behind the Orzammar is barely political either, good sir.

[CJohnJones]

Fantasy has become darker over the last twenty years or so, so it is unsurprising that many commenters here don't see it as different from what they are used to. Dark fantasy does not mean that it has to be a lot darker than what is out there right now, when most of what is out there right now is dark or at least trying to be dark.



Many situations in the game involve a choice of the lesser of two evils. Bad things explicitly happen to good people who are close to the action. You meet people with ruined lives and shattered minds. You can side with a Dwarven mad scientist who is the equivalent of Joseph Mengele.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



I don't believe I said anything saying that it wasn't what it is.

[Findarin]

leave redcliff to its fate--That is plenty dark.



Or try keeping the anvil. That is some darkness for you.



The dwarves there is flat out no happy ending for all.



Redcliff can, but if you play by human emotion, and with the need for expediency it won't be the most attractive choice.



Same with the elves. Especially depending upon your origin. A dalish background would definitely kill the wolves. Plus, why would you lose a powerful leader just for the humans sake.

[Roxlimn]

Killing werewolves who are intent on massacring your people doesn't strike me as "dark."

Killing a demon abomination to save a village of people doesn't strike me as "dark."

Uniting a people under one ruler, pulling them from the brink of civil war doesn't strike me as "dark."

Leaving a village to die because you have a nation to save could be considered callous, but not all that "dark." Lothering died, too. Many villages not even on that map probably died as well.

Keeping a weapon of war that creates perfect soldiers doesn't strike me as "dark."

[037686]

It strikes me that there are too many people who don't really understand the range of what dark fantasy covers.



Games don't fail a dark fantasy test purely because they don't support you playing like an insane genocidal maniac.

[Roxlimn]

Sure. They fail because they don't differ substantially from other material that is NOT classified as "dark fantasy."