883 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyingCow371]

Reposted from a locked thread, suggested to move to this thread

"We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received."

So, what aspects of the story seem important to their integrity? What are they willing to change, and what are they going to stay solid about no matter how badly fans dislike it? They did say they might consider a "balance" between the artisitic integrity and addressing feedback, but I'm not sure how far to trust that their idea of the "right" balance is the same as mine.

Major themes/events

Great victory throughout this war requires sacrifice. Mordin, Legion, Grunt's team, random soldiers/pilots you meet up with that help you achieve some objective that costs them their lives.

Place in the ending: Shepard dies. His squadmates probably die too. Anderson, dead. Shepard's actions make him into The Shepard, a legendary figure.


Ways to change it while keeping with the original theme? Not sure. I'd like an option for Shepard to survive if war assets are sufficient, taking a fourth choice not yet included in the game, but more on that later. Would Shepard still become The Shepard, even if he doesn't sacrifice himself to fight back the reapers here? I think so. But there's always the (small) chance that if he survives, he ****s **** up later and tarnishes his legacy, perhaps hurting future mass effect titles when they want characters to talk about how The Shepard sacrificed himself at this event.

In a war like this, there is often no complete victory. Many of the choices in the game result in something being strengthened at the cost of something else being weakened. Do you want the Salarians on your side, or the krogan? Do you want the Geth, or the Quarians? Do you want the Rachni, or Grunt's team? Do you want Jack's people throwing their biotic powers into the attack, risking their lives, or do you want to try and protect the kids and deploy them as defensive barrier-holders?

Place in the ending: All 3 choices given by the star kid dude sucked. Kill the reapers, great, but also genocide the Geth who just recently became free from reapers and mostly redeamed themselves. Sucks. "Control" the reapers, likely become corrupted eventually and become a new driving force for evil and destruction in the galaxy. Also sucks. Last choice - combine synthetics and organics? Do the reapers' work for them, destroy all races and diversity replacing them with some hybrid thing. Also sucks, like the other choices. But you're forced to pick one.

Ways to change it and remain with the themes: Sometimes during the regular game, and the rest of the series, Shepard was a badass and found another, better way. Shepard stayed strong in his/her beleifs, often refusing to compromise especially when all options sucked. Example - Geth and Quarians, finding a way to make peace there. Sending Grunt to his death to buy the rachni queen time to escape? Grunt just goes super badass and defeats all the things and makes it to extraction. How to apply those themes (hope and not giving up despite bad situations/choices) established earlier in the series to the ending? Give Shepard another way, let him/her tell the star child to shove those options up its ass. Taking his chances with the military might of the entire galaxy united against a common foe, bringing all their different tactics to bear on the reapers at the same time so they can't adapt and beat any individual style.

Or they could hit us with a pretty badass plot twist, which would've been akin to the one in KotOR had it been planned and introduced on purpose with the original release.

Closing comments.

These are just 2 things that seem like themes that they'd want to preserve, and if we want to give the best constructive criticism we may need to consider that they will refuse to change some things. Although it would help to know more about what they consider important to their "artisitc integrity". *cough*stargazer saying buy DLC*cough* I'm hoping that "not making any sense" is not a big part of their approach to "art", although I'm worried because of reading statements where they say they planned on people having different interpretations and lots of speculation (even though they were saying lots of things about closure before release).

Anyway, what are some key themes you see in the ending, and how would you preserve those themes while still making the ending better?

[MwRDKY]

brusher225 wrote...

The most important thing about that letter to me is his defending the ending. That means they expected that to be the true ending. There was never a REAL ending in the works. That was supposed to be it.

This is not good. I can understand his defending it but it makes our chances of getting to finish the war with the Reapers not good.

True, and is there any more heavier fed involvement we can bring down on Bioware?

[j78]

The next time some one say s that it’s art and they can’t change it because art is the vision of the artist ."The teams at Del Rey and BioWare would like to extend our sincerest apologies to the Mass Effect fans for any errors and oversights made in the recent novel Mass Effect: Deception," the apology post on Bioware's forums reads. "We are currently working on a number of changes that will appear in future editions of the novel."

Oh no they changed the art . lol

Modifié par j78, 21 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[Vromrig]

LoboFH wrote...

Ray Muzyka's statement brings me hope, they are listening, maybe overwhelmed because they didn't expect this emotional reaction, a reaction that shows we care about ME...but it's easy to save this epic screwup, just listen to constructive criticism, it's there...

...everything is a dream,

...wake up Commander Shepard!

Hope given that DLC will come.  Likelihood of acceptable resolution decreased, however.  Question of morality and ethics now brought to forefront.  Cheap trick.  Unbecoming of Bioware.

[tsd16]

PotterGaz wrote...

I think you all need to give them a break now. It's clear from that press release that they are indeed going to give the fans something that will at least clear up some of the "plot holes" that i've read so much about over the last 2 weeks.

We need to remember that they are mere mortals at the end of the day who are probably feeling the emotional pain of such a response from the masses. Like Ray said, some of the criticism has been destructive to their sales, morale and image and I genuinely believe they were trying to read the situation and discuss ways to help the fans ever since this first came about.

Now is the time to sit back, be civil and wait for whatever olive branch they are offering. People wanted closure and now it looks like they are trying their best to give some.

Best post of this thread.  

I find it disconcerting a co-founder of bioware writes this, and all people can seem to do is make fun of him and lash out.   He friggin reached out and ADMITTED many of the points made are valid.  

and all most people are doing in this thread is attacking them.   Its one thing offering valid criticism in a professional manner, but then theres the people in this thread.

[rinoe]

MPSai wrote...

Generic Name wrote...

dragonator89 wrote...

"I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the
best work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive
feedback from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their
expectations."

well it was incredibly painful and depressing for fans of the ME trilogy to see how the last 10 min could literally destroy everything that they all worked so hard to achieve.  

Winning.

I mean I agree.

Same. I think much of the backlash is due to the fact we know Bioware can do better. We're concerned about their artistic integrity looking at an ending like that, which introduces plotholes and literally destroys the setting as a send off for it. 

Same here:)

[KeldorKatarn]

Grifman1 wrote...

cdancidhe wrote...

I hate how they keep saying a minority. From the friends I have and all the facebook/tweets/forums I read, 98% dislike the ending. Get your facts together Bioware!!!!!

Do a word search, nowhere does he us the word "minority".  Who needs to get their facts together?

 the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players  

some, and futher limiting it by MOST loyal players. See here. MOST loyal, not our loyal players, or some of our loyal players, it is some of our MOST loyal players. That is limiting it THREE times. Some, most, loyal. Read as "Yeah well the fanboys are going nuts, but everybody else loves us"

it's actually funny that nobody that proof read this noticed this:

"some of our loyal fans " a paragraph or two later... already growing the number of people.

But then again " However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional "

and the funny part is the proof of that:  with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s 

Then again:   in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans 

most adrent fans. Not our fans, not our ardent fans, our MOST ardent fans. limiting again twice. Read: "fanboys again"


Also this is great:  Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole. 

Yeah.. sure, because you know that will be more positive than "how was the ending".

Read it agian: The game quality doesn't matter in light of the ending because it completely screws it up.. ALL of it, ok? Get it?

I don't need a text search to understand when I'm labeled as an annoying minority that doesn't have any say over the critics anyway.

Modifié par KeldorKatarn, 21 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[Asari23]

Now, I'm not going to tell you how to do your job, it's your story, you can do what you like, and I respect your artistic views, but....well, let me put it in a perspective that everyone can see.

This is like an artist, throwing **** on a wall, he sees all the expression in it, he has all these artistic views on it, he thinks it's great, but his views and thoughts on it mean jack **** if everyone else can't see these views, to them is is literally just **** on a wall, ands that's what ME3s ending is ATM.

[Revan79]

I just finished the game last night, and all I can say is "Wow!" that ending was terrible! when compared to all of the other bioware games I've played!, where to start!?...

Too short, full of questions.. basic unanswered questions... why would the Normandy be flying somewhere else far far away from where they were supposedly fighting... EARTH why not crash land on EARTH!? seriously... you're fighting a battle right above earth and all of the sudden you get a short scene showing Jokers flying it far away from where Shepard was in a different system that wasn't the local cluster, second... why not try and radio contact Shepard to see if he's alright... (why not show this on a short scene?) I mean... obviously they were able to talk to him prior to him making contact with the boy and making the 3 way decision... I'm no writer but surely Bioware can do better than this, they've been doing it for the past 5 years with so many great games, this was supposed to be the best game yet but honestly the ending was terrible, so terrible it almost ruined the whole game for me... there was no sense of closure with this game... I'm terribly dissapointed.

[Bizantura]

When shareholders demands..., it is never art and your will shall instantly be done.
When custumers asks......, its art can't be done.

[Kayawyn4]

I think this is a small but good step. There is a lot of PR-speak in that article but there has to be. It would be corporate suicide to mishandle anything at this point. Regardless of what Muzyka said, it does show that he is acknowledging us and our complaints.

However, I also realize that Bioware—for all of their wonderful artists, writers, musicians, voice actors and developers—is still a company whose goal is to earn money. So we have to keep the pressure up and be sure that they know there is money in providing a proper “ending DLC”.
Hold the line.

[SaladinDheonqar]

So he belittles us, and then makes it seem like they're begrudgingly doing something about it out of the graciousness & generosity of their heart. I don't know if I should feel insulted or pleased that at least the top dogs are now coming into play. Nevermind the fact that the devs lied to us time after time before launch, I'm just concerned that BIoware genuinely thinks what they gave us is good, let alone adequate. It simply boggles my mind that they can't see the disparity of quality between the whole series and the last 10 minutes. It's making me quite anxious about how they'll go about fixing it. Let's hope it turns out more like FO3's Broken Steel than DA2's Legacy.

[Malchat]

As one of the vocal critics, I'm happy with this statement. Compromise was always the best we could hope for and this statement, from the very top of Bioware, confirms that they're willing to work towards a compromise.

What also helps is:

• The confirmation that this was not some elaborate ruse, psych-out or marketing strategy
• The admission they were blindsided by the extent of the criticism
• The phrase 'content initiatives'... that leaves room for other options than just a straight DLC (e.g. patches, crossmedia etc.)
• No attempt to marginalize the naysayers by comparing their relative number to some silent majority

I also respect that he goes out of his way to praise and defend his team. It might not be what some want to hear, but I think it's the decent thing to do - the people who are in the middle of this storm need to know their boss stands behind them and they need to be motivated to do the tough work ahead.

That said,  I find the extremely negative reactions here disappointing and, in some cases, childish.

I haven't moved an inch from my position that the ending is unacceptable as is... but, now that I know Bioware did not intend any of this, I am willing work with them.

Keep cool, stay civil, and let's build that Crucible--- I mean, compromise.

Modifié par Malchat, 21 mars 2012 - 05:22 .

[yahtzo]

It seems to me the best way to keep the "artistic integrity" intact is just to use the Indoctrination theory. That way, they don't actually have to change a thing, just add to it.

[AnsinJung]

Anyone remember James and Cortez discussing the benefits of the MAKO vs the Hammerhead? It sounded like a fan argument. I can't say how much, but they do listen. I'm hopeful for better things to come. Waiting is really difficult as this game has consumed my attention, but they say good things come to those who wait.

In that spirit, please test more in the future. Get testers who can complete a game and will give you their mind. If they have reason to hesitate, like employees or reviewers, that's not a true control group. The testing process failed if something this gigantic slipped past.

[alx119]

Vromrig wrote...

LoboFH wrote...

Ray Muzyka's statement brings me hope, they are listening, maybe overwhelmed because they didn't expect this emotional reaction, a reaction that shows we care about ME...but it's easy to save this epic screwup, just listen to constructive criticism, it's there...

...everything is a dream,

...wake up Commander Shepard!

Hope given that DLC will come.  Likelihood of acceptable resolution decreased, however.  Question of morality and ethics now brought to forefront.  Cheap trick.  Unbecoming of Bioware.

Trully questionable indeed :x We will just have to be patience until further news. Patience, however, doesn't mean nor hopeful, nor hopeless, in my case means being cautious with what to expect, and just wait for new announcements and official press releases. 

[DreamTension]

yahtzo wrote...

It seems to me the best way to keep the "artistic integrity" intact is just to use the Indoctrination theory. That way, they don't actually have to change a thing, just add to it.

Yep.  Win win win

[Cinnamintz]

Mr. Muzyka,

I appreciate you speaking up on and joining the issue. It does help to know that our concerns are being heard. Understandably, these sorts of press release posts need to have a measure of caution, just as a safety net. As such, I agree it's unreasonable to expect an immediate explanation of the forthcoming plans. I, speaking only for myself, am incredibly pleased to hear BioWare is taking the community's concerns with the shortcomings of the ending seriously.

Mass Effect 3 is the greatest game in the trilogy, arguably one of the best games ever made, right up until the last 20 minutes of game play. While I am absolutely content accepting a bittersweet or even bleak ending, that ending needs to make sense given the character traits of Shepard. It also needs to logically respect the lore and mythos of the game universe as well as the the overall spirit of the game being about big choices that have huge, and most importantly, varied outcomes. It needs to feel like the choices you made in the previous 100 to 120 hours of game play matter and are not immediately invalidated by deus ex machina plot devices.

It's good to see work has already begun to that end. It's definitely an important step in showing that our opinions as your rabid, but loyal, fanbase actually matter to you. Admittedly, you now have the ambitious goal of trying to placate every player upset about the current ending, and on that I don't envy you. Between the two of us, I think sticking to your guns regarding the tenor of the ending is perfectly fine, as long as you modify said ending to make some semblance of logical sense and include some variations based on the choices a player makes across the trilogy. I look forwarding to seeing what you have up your sleeve come April. Until then, we hold the line.

J

[Ironhandjustice]

If the message is correct, the want to hear what we want to say. Lets do together a voting, with bioware, a poll for the ending.

We can rebuild the ending, together, forget and forgive what happened.

Many people is dissapointed, and someones will not be pleased even if it is changed. For this reason, is better to do a poll to examine what we want.

There was a problem, we all must solve it. Nothing more. Someones got angry and said more than the should. We are humans, we do things bad sometimes.

The poll itself:

-As is
-As is + epilogue like Dragon Age, image and text. No relay destruction for future games.
-As is + epilogue like DAO, and some videos for the normandy scape and battle. No relay destruction for future games.
-Indoctrination theory + Bioware ending
-Indoctrination theory + DAO epilogue
-Indoctrination theory + DAO epilogue + final scene with sheppard given up for death, but retired to pinnacle station's apartment with love interest.
-More Bioware suggestions


Someone can move this to first page, please?

[Grifman1]

tsd16 wrote...

PotterGaz wrote...

I think you all need to give them a break now. It's clear from that press release that they are indeed going to give the fans something that will at least clear up some of the "plot holes" that i've read so much about over the last 2 weeks.

We need to remember that they are mere mortals at the end of the day who are probably feeling the emotional pain of such a response from the masses. Like Ray said, some of the criticism has been destructive to their sales, morale and image and I genuinely believe they were trying to read the situation and discuss ways to help the fans ever since this first came about.

Now is the time to sit back, be civil and wait for whatever olive branch they are offering. People wanted closure and now it looks like they are trying their best to give some.

Best post of this thread.  

I find it disconcerting a co-founder of bioware writes this, and all people can seem to do is make fun of him and lash out.   He friggin reached out and ADMITTED many of the points made are valid.  

and all most people are doing in this thread is attacking them.   Its one thing offering valid criticism in a professional manner, but then theres the people in this thread.

Agreed.  Peole need to calm down.  You have their attention, it is clear they are gong to address the problem.  How is unspecified but that's to be expected as I doubt they know what they are going to do yet.   Getting all worked up about what they are going to do or not going to do right now achieves nothing.  Give them a chance to make it right.  If they don't, then feel free to take up the cause again.  But this constant bashing and attacking at this point will serve no good purpose.  It's time to take a wait and see attitude.  You can only push people so far as the next to last paragraph make clear.  The last thing you want to do is push people into a corner from which they feel they have no out.  Give them a chance to make it good.

[Grasich]

KeldorKatarn wrote...

Grifman1 wrote...

cdancidhe wrote...

I hate how they keep saying a minority. From the friends I have and all the facebook/tweets/forums I read, 98% dislike the ending. Get your facts together Bioware!!!!!

Do a word search, nowhere does he us the word "minority".  Who needs to get their facts together?

 the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players  

some, and futher limiting it by MOST loyal players. See here. MOST loyal, not our loyal players, or some of our loyal players, it is some of our MOST loyal players. That is limiting it THREE times. Some, most, loyal. Read as "Yeah well the fanboys are going nuts, but everybody else loves us"

it's actually funny that nobody that proof read this noticed this:

"some of our loyal fans " a paragraph or two later... already growing the number of people.

But then again " However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional "

and the funny part is the proof of that:  with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s 

Then again:   in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans 

most adrent fans. Not our fans, not our ardent fans, our MOST ardent fans. limiting again twice. Read: "fanboys again"


Also this is great:  Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole. 

Yeah.. sure, because you know that will be more positive than "how was the ending".

Read it agian: The game quality doesn't matter in light of the ending because it completely screws it up.. ALL of it, ok? Get it?

I don't need a text search to understand when I'm labeled as an annoying minority that doesn't have any say over the critics anyway.

Unfortunately, this is the case. He limits the range of who he is saying is in the retake movement many times.

They're still trying to dismiss us a "vocal minority".

I also find it amusing that he takes the "average" of the critics, and somehow comes up with a mid 90s score. You can do the same thing for any game and come up with any score you want as long as you just pick and choose which reviews to use.

Still, have the exec producer come up and talk shows they're nervous.

Keep it up, be patient, be polite, and

Hold the line!

[Silveralen]

The fact that he is addressing it makes me more likely to buy whateer DLC they do eventually make.

The tone from Bioware of self congratulation, rationalization, "artistic integrity" (The final bit of my ending as you telling me to buy DLC, so please shut up about that), condescension, and the fact they still haven't addressed the fact that they lied to us about the endings means this will probably be the last Bioware game I purchase.

If they just addressed, in any way, the blatant lies, I would be ok. As it is, I'm getting fed up.

[Vromrig]

Important to maintain profile. If all eyes on fans, fans must respond with one voice. Remind Bioware, consistently, uninterested in current ending with different dialogue. Actual closer.

Highlight issues:

Eleventh hour plot twist unacceptable. Reapers must remain villains, not misunderstood saviors. Sacrifice of Shepard must matter. Conclusion of plot important. Break down in galactic civilization unacceptable.

Ending currently unsatisfactory. Suggests beat Reapers, still lose. Simply waiting for Yahg to develop space flight. Implications unpleasant.

[xiaoassassin]

Justice prevails.

[Lurchibald]

Yahtzee reviews Mass Effect 3 http://www.escapistm...7-Mass-Effect-3