Expansion is always good.
I certainly hope the whole ending won't be changed.
Because, you know, then you'll have another loud crowd demanding the original concept back.
Hee-hee. No, really.
I'd like to say it out loud:
It wasn't the blatant, the aggressive behaviour, it wasn't the harrassments made against Jennifer Hepler, it wasn't the "calling the company names and offending Casey" movement that caused the response.
It was the polite, reasonable guys with their reasonable comments and organized, polite tone.
At least I certainly hope so.
BioWare Co-Founder Ray Muzyka to Mass Effect players
Débuté par
New Generation
, mars 21 2012 03:08
Retour en haut
#602
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
rinoe
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- Members
- 1 650 messages
War is always wrong and bad - casualties always on both sides... We know it.
But we are not the ones who start that war - the poorly made ending did.
It is not art - it is somothing made in a hurry in the end of the road. They already sell the game with non existing ending.
It was never my intention to talk bad about the game - it is a piece of very good work - exclude the ending. But the last minutes of that very good game (or even best game I played) is total crap full of holes, not fit to the game itself or even to serie. It is a fact. We are fighting exactly becouse the game is so good and do not deserves that kind of poorly made ending.
My question to Bioware - why put a gasoline into the fire? Give us a simple satement - we will fix the ending. The moment you will do it - the war is over. We will love you again with hope in the eyes and happy smile. PR games is not fun.
It is not fair to sell us just anything and tell us it is art. It is not.
But we are not the ones who start that war - the poorly made ending did.
It is not art - it is somothing made in a hurry in the end of the road. They already sell the game with non existing ending.
It was never my intention to talk bad about the game - it is a piece of very good work - exclude the ending. But the last minutes of that very good game (or even best game I played) is total crap full of holes, not fit to the game itself or even to serie. It is a fact. We are fighting exactly becouse the game is so good and do not deserves that kind of poorly made ending.
My question to Bioware - why put a gasoline into the fire? Give us a simple satement - we will fix the ending. The moment you will do it - the war is over. We will love you again with hope in the eyes and happy smile. PR games is not fun.
It is not fair to sell us just anything and tell us it is art. It is not.
#603
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
SoloShepard
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- Members
- 71 messages
I imagine this is the only type of response we ever could have expected to get. They will never address the specific criticisms made. They will never tell us what REALLY happened because EA is calling the shots now.
Bioware knows the fans wanted to see Tali's face. Bioware knows the fans would want to know exactly how the story ends for their Shepard and their crew, and to feel like the outcome would have been different had they made different choices. Bioware would have done right by us and I'm sure they would love to say so, but they can't say anything other than what EA lets them say or they will lose any chance to work on the future of this world they have spent so many years building.
I only hope someday down the road someone comes clean because I would really love to know the truth.
Bioware knows the fans wanted to see Tali's face. Bioware knows the fans would want to know exactly how the story ends for their Shepard and their crew, and to feel like the outcome would have been different had they made different choices. Bioware would have done right by us and I'm sure they would love to say so, but they can't say anything other than what EA lets them say or they will lose any chance to work on the future of this world they have spent so many years building.
I only hope someday down the road someone comes clean because I would really love to know the truth.
#604
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
Vromrig
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- 621 messages
Important to remember key points. Holding the line more than simply indicating disappointment.
Continue to address grievances. Refuse satisfaction from acknowledgement. If swindled, not happy that swindler admits. Swindler must resolve damage done.
Continue to address grievances. Refuse satisfaction from acknowledgement. If swindled, not happy that swindler admits. Swindler must resolve damage done.
#605
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
Miekkas
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- 127 messages
I'm sorry, but I cannot bring myself to believe anthing you say right now with these continued PR tactics, Bioware. This is nothing more than yet another public relations attempt at trying to dismiss the issue that players have stated and outlined in the feedback thread and numerous others since day one of this debacle. You are continuing to accuse people who do not like the ending as a "vocal minority", citing critics as though their opinion is gospel and right no matter what, and completely misrepresenting what the players want.
1. Across the internet, I have not seen a single poll where more than 15% is happy with the endings. A massive majority in polls whether it be BSN's, IGN's (who vehemently critisized tha fans), Computer Gaming, etc have all resulted in over 80% stating that they are unhappy. In some cases, the percents are in the 90 percentile. That is not a vocal minority Bioware. These polls number in the tens of thousands as a sample size when regular polls usually only number a few thousand in sample size. At one point does it take you to realize that there are a lot of unhappy people over the ending?
2. Stop citing "professional" game review critics in some attempt to make it seem as though the fans do not have legitimate complaints. These types of media outlets, IGN especially, are infamous for taking payouts from companies for good reviews. The opinions of the players is what matters, not some paid critic. They are the ones who are the main direct source of your income, not critics.
3. You continue to simplify the issue by stating players are just looking for more closure and clarity. Take a look at the feedback thread that YOU made. The issues with this endings are a lot more complex that you are willing to publicly admit. Even the average gamer without a degree in literature can point out the glaring issues with the endings, but you publicly pretend that they don't exist because you don't want to admit that you messed up very badly. There are thousands of posts in the feedback thread alone, many building off of each other, that point out every single issue with the endings from illogical plotholes to violations of characters and themes to pointing out half truths you have told like having 16 different endings.
Stop insulting our intelligence, Bioware, or we will somply take our business to someone who does not take us for fools. Make an announce that addresses us with respect and as valued customers, not with dismissive, sterile public relations statements. Customers want empathy and to be treated as human beings. Heck, maybe they want to develop a friendly and first name basis with the developers. When you connect with your customers on a personal level, you are much more likely to retain their loyalty and hear you out before taking their business elsewhere. This is customer service 101 that even those who do not work in business know. Instead you are doing the exact opposite of this, and that is why people, including me, are inclined to believe anything you say until new endings are downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase.
Hold the line, folks. Do not believe a single word they say until the new endings have been downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase. Keep on the pressure.
1. Across the internet, I have not seen a single poll where more than 15% is happy with the endings. A massive majority in polls whether it be BSN's, IGN's (who vehemently critisized tha fans), Computer Gaming, etc have all resulted in over 80% stating that they are unhappy. In some cases, the percents are in the 90 percentile. That is not a vocal minority Bioware. These polls number in the tens of thousands as a sample size when regular polls usually only number a few thousand in sample size. At one point does it take you to realize that there are a lot of unhappy people over the ending?
2. Stop citing "professional" game review critics in some attempt to make it seem as though the fans do not have legitimate complaints. These types of media outlets, IGN especially, are infamous for taking payouts from companies for good reviews. The opinions of the players is what matters, not some paid critic. They are the ones who are the main direct source of your income, not critics.
3. You continue to simplify the issue by stating players are just looking for more closure and clarity. Take a look at the feedback thread that YOU made. The issues with this endings are a lot more complex that you are willing to publicly admit. Even the average gamer without a degree in literature can point out the glaring issues with the endings, but you publicly pretend that they don't exist because you don't want to admit that you messed up very badly. There are thousands of posts in the feedback thread alone, many building off of each other, that point out every single issue with the endings from illogical plotholes to violations of characters and themes to pointing out half truths you have told like having 16 different endings.
Stop insulting our intelligence, Bioware, or we will somply take our business to someone who does not take us for fools. Make an announce that addresses us with respect and as valued customers, not with dismissive, sterile public relations statements. Customers want empathy and to be treated as human beings. Heck, maybe they want to develop a friendly and first name basis with the developers. When you connect with your customers on a personal level, you are much more likely to retain their loyalty and hear you out before taking their business elsewhere. This is customer service 101 that even those who do not work in business know. Instead you are doing the exact opposite of this, and that is why people, including me, are inclined to believe anything you say until new endings are downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase.
Hold the line, folks. Do not believe a single word they say until the new endings have been downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase. Keep on the pressure.
#606
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
TreguardD
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- Members
- 268 messages
Responses in line with your own, Doctor, sir.
<<As co-founder and GM of BioWare, I’m very proud of the ME3 team; I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the best work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their expectations. Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.>>
Games are not unique, sir, even movies have test audiences, several of them. In "How to Train your Dragon" executive meddling was going to pull the scene of Hiccup's Leg being burned off, leaving him needing a prosthetic. Test Audiences convinced them to put it back.
<<I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.>>
Storytelling is an art form, sir. But like all art, it's volatile. However, the idea of "Artistic Integrity" is, well, silly. Art is a product created for a consumer. Storytellers that do well by experts but bad by the audience do not, in general, get the chance to tell more stories. Mass Effect 3 was created because so many people enjoyed and spread the word about Mass Effects 1 and Two.
<< Mass Effect 3 concludes a trilogy with so much player control and ownership of the story that it was hard for
us to predict the range of emotions players would feel when they finished playing through it. The journey you undertake in Mass Effect provokes an intense range of highly personal emotions in the player; even so, the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us. This is an issue we care about deeply, and we will respond to it in a fair and timely way. We’re already working hard to do that.>>
Quite frankly, this shocks and massively disappoints me. It is not the darkness of the ending that is disappointing.
Say, for example, we had witnessed a scene where the crew gathered around a monument to Shepard's sacrifice. The Love Interest, or perhaps Joker if there isn't one, gives a speech about her sacrifice. That would have been acceptable. We, as players, did it for them.
It is the frank out of character moments for most, if not all, of the Normandy's crew of specialists and pilots. This is not just the verbal out of character (I Made a Mistake!) that was well done and shocking to hear; but full actions that are completely out of character. Why is Liara (if she is your love interested - Loyal through three games) running instead of trying to see if Shepard is alive? How did she get back up to the Normandy in the first place? Did nobody in the writing team look at this?
Thatthe appearence itself of passionate fans complaining about plotholes in the ending surprised you shocks and saddens me as well. Didn't we just go through this with Mass Effect: Deception? The entire story was
riddled with lore mistakes: https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true and Bioware reacted to that one, too: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9150901.
<<To that end, since the game launched, the team has been poring over everything they can find about reactions
to the game – industry press, forums, Facebook, and Twitter, just to name a few. The Mass Effect team, like other teams across the BioWare Label within EA, consists of passionate people who work hard for the love of creating experiences that excite and delight our fans. I’m honored to work with them because they have the courage and strength to respond to constructive feedback.>>
Do not misconstruct us, at least in general, as attacking the people. (We understand that there are outliers in any group. We do not condone them.) We want better because we know you CAN be better. You've proven this over 2 Games, 2 acts in game 3. At least one comic series (Redemption), and 3 books by Drew Karpyshyn. It's what made the Deux Ex Machina of the ending, and being forced into the Blue and Orange morality of the Reapers, so mindblowingly frustrating.
<<Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game
content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.
The reaction to the release of Mass Effect 3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are
passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole
is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better.>>
As a game, aside from the story, it is not perfect. There was the mess of a mission log.
That was a joke.
We've read the critic's reviews. You don't need to appeal to authority. (Critics are a fickle bunch - go read the original reviews for Star Wars: A New Hope.) We believe, as your consumers, that we are the authority. (The question: "Does a great story based game with a bad ending invalidate the rest of it?" is an excellent discussion provoking question that would take me to far afield). Many customers are treating this as proof that Game Review sites are "Paid off" for better reviews. At least one, Jim Sterling of Destructoid, seemed bound and determined to focus on outliers in order to marginalize the rest of us (or, perhaps, to boost his own ratings). See also: www.damnlag.com/a-lack-of-value-the-reviews/ for more on that topic.
<<Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if
founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to
destructive commentary.>>
Agreed. Just remember that a force of fifty thousand people will always seem a stampede. Their mood is irrelevant.
<<If you are a Mass Effect fan and have input for the team – we respect your opinion and want to hear it. We’re
committed to address your constructive feedback as best we can. In return, I’d ask that you help us do that by supporting what I truly believe is the best game BioWare has yet crafted. I urge you to do your own research: play the game, finish it and tell us what you think. Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole. Trust
that we are doing our damndest, as always, to address your feedback. As artists, we care about our fans deeply and we appreciate your support.>>
Thatthe game, no, the series, was great up until the last ten minutes is absolutely true. I don't know, however, if I can heartfelty recommend a story with such a crummy conclusion to my friends. I would fear the backlash when they reached it. (On the other hand, I've repeatedly recommended the Dresden Files.)
<<Thank you for your feedback – we are listening.>>
Hell. I, and I'm sure fifty thousand people, are willing to put our talents where are mouths are. I consider myself a writer. I offer myself up to help you with anything I can do. Contact me: TheZorker [AT] aol.com
Take our criticisms as a badge of honor. We know you can do better because we've seen you do it.
Musically: "We need you to recover. We can't make it on our own."
That was my feedback -- we are waiting.
-John Burkhart.
TheZorker [AT] aol.com
(Edited for the insane linebreaks that showed up after posting)
<<As co-founder and GM of BioWare, I’m very proud of the ME3 team; I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the best work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their expectations. Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.>>
Games are not unique, sir, even movies have test audiences, several of them. In "How to Train your Dragon" executive meddling was going to pull the scene of Hiccup's Leg being burned off, leaving him needing a prosthetic. Test Audiences convinced them to put it back.
<<I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.>>
Storytelling is an art form, sir. But like all art, it's volatile. However, the idea of "Artistic Integrity" is, well, silly. Art is a product created for a consumer. Storytellers that do well by experts but bad by the audience do not, in general, get the chance to tell more stories. Mass Effect 3 was created because so many people enjoyed and spread the word about Mass Effects 1 and Two.
<< Mass Effect 3 concludes a trilogy with so much player control and ownership of the story that it was hard for
us to predict the range of emotions players would feel when they finished playing through it. The journey you undertake in Mass Effect provokes an intense range of highly personal emotions in the player; even so, the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us. This is an issue we care about deeply, and we will respond to it in a fair and timely way. We’re already working hard to do that.>>
Quite frankly, this shocks and massively disappoints me. It is not the darkness of the ending that is disappointing.
Say, for example, we had witnessed a scene where the crew gathered around a monument to Shepard's sacrifice. The Love Interest, or perhaps Joker if there isn't one, gives a speech about her sacrifice. That would have been acceptable. We, as players, did it for them.
It is the frank out of character moments for most, if not all, of the Normandy's crew of specialists and pilots. This is not just the verbal out of character (I Made a Mistake!) that was well done and shocking to hear; but full actions that are completely out of character. Why is Liara (if she is your love interested - Loyal through three games) running instead of trying to see if Shepard is alive? How did she get back up to the Normandy in the first place? Did nobody in the writing team look at this?
Thatthe appearence itself of passionate fans complaining about plotholes in the ending surprised you shocks and saddens me as well. Didn't we just go through this with Mass Effect: Deception? The entire story was
riddled with lore mistakes: https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true and Bioware reacted to that one, too: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9150901.
<<To that end, since the game launched, the team has been poring over everything they can find about reactions
to the game – industry press, forums, Facebook, and Twitter, just to name a few. The Mass Effect team, like other teams across the BioWare Label within EA, consists of passionate people who work hard for the love of creating experiences that excite and delight our fans. I’m honored to work with them because they have the courage and strength to respond to constructive feedback.>>
Do not misconstruct us, at least in general, as attacking the people. (We understand that there are outliers in any group. We do not condone them.) We want better because we know you CAN be better. You've proven this over 2 Games, 2 acts in game 3. At least one comic series (Redemption), and 3 books by Drew Karpyshyn. It's what made the Deux Ex Machina of the ending, and being forced into the Blue and Orange morality of the Reapers, so mindblowingly frustrating.
<<Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game
content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.
The reaction to the release of Mass Effect 3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are
passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole
is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better.>>
As a game, aside from the story, it is not perfect. There was the mess of a mission log.
That was a joke.
We've read the critic's reviews. You don't need to appeal to authority. (Critics are a fickle bunch - go read the original reviews for Star Wars: A New Hope.) We believe, as your consumers, that we are the authority. (The question: "Does a great story based game with a bad ending invalidate the rest of it?" is an excellent discussion provoking question that would take me to far afield). Many customers are treating this as proof that Game Review sites are "Paid off" for better reviews. At least one, Jim Sterling of Destructoid, seemed bound and determined to focus on outliers in order to marginalize the rest of us (or, perhaps, to boost his own ratings). See also: www.damnlag.com/a-lack-of-value-the-reviews/ for more on that topic.
<<Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if
founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to
destructive commentary.>>
Agreed. Just remember that a force of fifty thousand people will always seem a stampede. Their mood is irrelevant.
<<If you are a Mass Effect fan and have input for the team – we respect your opinion and want to hear it. We’re
committed to address your constructive feedback as best we can. In return, I’d ask that you help us do that by supporting what I truly believe is the best game BioWare has yet crafted. I urge you to do your own research: play the game, finish it and tell us what you think. Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole. Trust
that we are doing our damndest, as always, to address your feedback. As artists, we care about our fans deeply and we appreciate your support.>>
Thatthe game, no, the series, was great up until the last ten minutes is absolutely true. I don't know, however, if I can heartfelty recommend a story with such a crummy conclusion to my friends. I would fear the backlash when they reached it. (On the other hand, I've repeatedly recommended the Dresden Files.)
<<Thank you for your feedback – we are listening.>>
Hell. I, and I'm sure fifty thousand people, are willing to put our talents where are mouths are. I consider myself a writer. I offer myself up to help you with anything I can do. Contact me: TheZorker [AT] aol.com
Take our criticisms as a badge of honor. We know you can do better because we've seen you do it.
Musically: "We need you to recover. We can't make it on our own."
That was my feedback -- we are waiting.
-John Burkhart.
TheZorker [AT] aol.com
(Edited for the insane linebreaks that showed up after posting)
Modifié par TreguardD, 21 mars 2012 - 06:59 .
#607
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
ArkkAngel007
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- Members
- 2 514 messages
Tygur wrote...
Wasn't there a huge discussion about Mass Effect series being created by fans? That means its OUR artistic integrity as well, and many of us didn't have the current end as our artistic vision.
Ok, but that line isn't middle-middle, or outing them.
Yes, we helped provide the feedback and influence design decisions. Yes, it is our actions that manipulate the experiences we have in the final product. Yes we help provide direction of DLC when we give our impressions of that final product.
But the actual intellectual work, the designs, the coding...from concept to patches...is BioWare. It is their artistic integrity. We are only an influence, like a valley that inspires a painting. The valley has no artistic integrity, but the artist creating a painting in the studio based on what they experienced when viewing that valley does.
So no, it's not our artistic vision, not in that sense. However, this is something we helped influence that integrity, and we are also the ones that this art is presented to as well. We do have the right to criticize and, such as this case, "encourage" a change to that art.
#608
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
IronMadness
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- 84 messages
He says he has been the best job he has done. Without wishing to trollear wonder: What other games has been Mr. Muzyka?
#609
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
Haus of Dye
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- 246 messages
"Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility..."
"...However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s."
Isn't that contradicting?
"...However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s."
Isn't that contradicting?
Modifié par Haus of Dye, 21 mars 2012 - 05:47 .
#610
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:47
NorthAI
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- Members
- 51 messages
Maybe something'll come from this. Maybe not. They broke my trust once already so I'm not putting even an inch of trust in any kind of followup to this. Until I see exactly what BW does to un**** the travesty they released, I'm not giving an inch.
Still holding the line.
Still holding the line.
#611
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:48
Mad-Hamlet
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- 1 613 messages
Communication has been attempted.
I am satisfied with that for now. I can wait until April to see what is done; I hope it will be satisfying and I plan to be perfectly civil in the meantime. I suggest we all do so, regardless of how we analyzed the article.
I am satisfied with that for now. I can wait until April to see what is done; I hope it will be satisfying and I plan to be perfectly civil in the meantime. I suggest we all do so, regardless of how we analyzed the article.
#612
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:48
Denethar
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- Members
- 543 messages
New Generation wrote...
blacqout wrote...
As someone that was able to appreciate the ending of Mass Effect 3, it gladdens my heart to hear that he wishes to keep the game's artistic integrity in tact. It is important to not dumb yourself down for the masses.
He is wrong about ME3 being the company's best work though - that honour befalls Dragon Age II.
Bwahahahahahah ROFL LLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLO. You serious:blink:????????
I'm all for people being allowed their own opinion, but I honestly hope you're joking.
#613
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:49
Starscream723
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- 868 messages
For some reason I'm remembering this:
http://social.biowar...index/1988326/1
and how that ultimately resulted in Nothing Whatsoever.
Insincere platitudes FTW.
http://social.biowar...index/1988326/1
and how that ultimately resulted in Nothing Whatsoever.
Insincere platitudes FTW.
Modifié par Starscream723, 21 mars 2012 - 05:51 .
#614
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:49
Steppzor
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- Members
- 19 messages
Sc2mashimaro wrote...
That the newest attempt to let fans know what the team at Bioware is thinking and what direction they are moving in is met with unwarranted amounts of cynicism no longer surprises me. I know there are other reasonable people here, reading and not responding who want endgame content to be released, so on their behalf and my own: thank you, Ray Muzyka, for your thoughtful reply.
It is always hard to have any aspect of your creative work torn down by criticism and I think it speaks highly of you and your team that you are swallowing your pride and accepting that criticism. The more feedback I hear from you, the more confident I become that you will make a good-faith effort to address the problems we have with the endings. I think almost all of the "Retake Mass Effect" crowd would agree that, up until the ending, Mass Effect 3 *was* the most engaging, emotional, and powerful story-telling that Bioware has ever accomplished. I think we would agree that, sans the ending, Mass Effect 3 really was the best work you and your team have done. It is because of the excellence of that work that I am confident that in addressing the thematic and rhetorical inconsistencies of the ending the Mass Effect 3 team will be able to craft an ending worthy of the masterpiece that is the rest of the game.
To fellow BSNers, this is another obvious move towards Bioware accepting our perspective and even includes the promise that plans for content to address the ending are being drawn up AS WE SPEAK. This is good news and cannot be spun otherwise by any reasonable person. Keep on holding the line and know that our message is getting through. We will never get every single thing we want, but I honestly believe that Bioware intends to make a good-faith effort to resolve as many issues with the ending as they can. Be happy! This is good news! And, of course, keep on holding the line!
Well writen. I approve this message
#615
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:50
Grasich
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- 1 671 messages
iTofu wrote...
I apologize for my ignorance, but does Retake have the wishes/demands/questions clearly stated somewhere?Fail_Inc wrote...
Stay sharp until we get an exact YES or NO on our wishes/demands/questions.
Hold ze Line!
They're stated sporadically in a lot of places.
The basic consenus though is that:
1. Our choices should MATTER, and change the outcome. Not mass genocide regardless of your choices.
2. There must be a wide range of "moods" for the endings. There need to be depressing ends, tragic ends, and ends with Shep and LI reunited.
3. There should be a minimal amount of plotholes, and any that are present should be easy to explain away; or at least take a only a bit of suspension of disbelief to ignore.
That's how I see it anyway.
#616
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:50
Balmung31
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From the Forbes article:
"There is no need to take a “constructive” attitude with talented artists,” writes Stephen Bond, “if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive. As H.L. Mencken said: “I do not object to being denounced, but I can’t abide being schoolmastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles.”
And:
Constructive criticism, Bond argues, is a “mass hallucination.” It is “inimical to the purposes of criticism
as art. I’ll say it again: the point of criticism is not to improve you, but to express me. And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself. I’m merely being polite, nice, even a bit condescending — in other words, I’m being aesthetically repulsive.”
So please, Mr. Muzkya, if you don't like the "destructive" criticism, then get out of the business. No one's forcing you to stay.
(shrug)
"There is no need to take a “constructive” attitude with talented artists,” writes Stephen Bond, “if anything, they find such an attitude more offensive. As H.L. Mencken said: “I do not object to being denounced, but I can’t abide being schoolmastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles.”
And:
Constructive criticism, Bond argues, is a “mass hallucination.” It is “inimical to the purposes of criticism
as art. I’ll say it again: the point of criticism is not to improve you, but to express me. And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself. I’m merely being polite, nice, even a bit condescending — in other words, I’m being aesthetically repulsive.”
So please, Mr. Muzkya, if you don't like the "destructive" criticism, then get out of the business. No one's forcing you to stay.
(shrug)
Modifié par Balmung31, 21 mars 2012 - 05:52 .
#617
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:51
Silrian
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- 170 messages
flub3 wrote...
I feel like he doesn't understand the problem. I don't care about any type of closure (sure, I would like it, but that isn't the point), I just want a chance for my Shepard to tell the god child to go screw himself. The one time that Shepard really needs a choice, and he can't make it. That is what really doesn't make sense. I would be willing to forgive how bad the ending was if I had that option.
I for one also felt a very passive vibe from Shepard at the end. There isn't any way to repel against the content of what the catalyst says. Okay he was physically beat, but still, it's god-damn(a certain curseword) Shepard! He should be able to at least try to punch that kid (even if he'd obviously fail miserably). I mean, Bioware got you to punch a woman, why not add ghost-kids to that list?
#618
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
Torrible
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Miekkas wrote...
Hold the line, folks. Do not believe a single word they say until the new endings have been downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase. Keep on the pressure.
People can decide for themselves. Who are you to tell them what to believe?
#619
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
SyxxByNyne
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This, to me, basically reads as they aren't planning to change the content or theme of the existing ending, but they will probably add an epilogue and/or some additional scenes to attempt to explain the entire sequence leading up to the Normandy crash.Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.
Modifié par SyxxByNyne, 21 mars 2012 - 05:52 .
#620
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
Aftrthought
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- 3 messages
Obviously I never post on game forums. Too much flaming and such. But on a website I do enjoy, I posted this response and feel it is appropriate for Bioware to know that there are people supporting this game as is. They just aren't on your forum flaming it. So you asked to know about support of your game, here is mine:
The endings are different. Is that not hard to understand? I think people are complaining just to complain.
1.) All synthetic life is wiped out. Everything electrical is wiped out. Think an EMP on a universe scale.
2.) Shepard controls the Reapers. The Reapers leave to watch how organics will behave and progress. There still to interject if judged it is needed by Shepard who now controls them.
3.) Synthetics and organics are intertwined to mix and co-exist. Shepard's life experiences are intertwined in this.
OK, that's pretty different. Let's talk about the similarities now that everybody seems so ready to bi*** about but never sit back and understand. Life is reset. Synthetics and the Reapers were not invented by the Protheans like everybody thought. The Reapers are older than anyone could have fathomed. The Protheans didn't build the Citadel, or the mass relays like everyone thought. They are very much older. So, we have to go back, way back, to when the Reapers were created and try to understand A.I.
A long, long, LONG time ago, there were beings who advanced in technology and built the mass relays to travel the galaxy. They also made A.I. You have to understand that A.I. is a theory. We can only perceive right now what we believe A.I. to be because no one has invented it yet. What we DO know is that A.I. will not be human. So human feelings, emotions, and instincts will not be present in A.I. We know as humans that we are prone to war. We are prone to violence. We know that we do many things out of emotion. This is something that we can't explain, it just gets done. You see a lot of insight into this with Shepard's conversations with EDI. She is a very young A.I. is attempting to understand human emotions.
Now let's look at the Geth. The Geth are this generations A.I. creations. They soon learned of their existence and wanted to preserve it. Hmmm, where have we seen this? Space Odyssey 2001? The Terminator? Wargames? Short Circuit? Eventually, we believe that when A.I. is created, it will want to self preserve. The Geth give you great insight into this. They rebelled on their creators so that they could live. They chased them off their planet, BUT they stopped chasing them. The most important part of this story is how the Geth stopped chasing the organics BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SEE THE NEED TO EXTINGUISH A LIFE FORM. THEY WANTED TO PRESERVE IT. A.I. knows that war and destruction is wrong. It sees it as a necessary evil to preserve life, but doesn't see it as an end all.
Now go back millions of years to the Reapers. They were the first A.I. They have been able to look and calculate the outcome to life. They come to realize that the pinnacle of all organics is to create A.I. That is final step. Organics create synthetic and then grow to fear it because it becomes something they don't understand and it becomes more intelligent than the organics. The synthetics move to preserve their life. So the Reapers decide that the best thing to do is to harvest the most advanced of organic beings. Once A.I. is created, organics will not stop until they destroy the A.I. Always fearing it. Only able to see the truly safest way to live is to wipe them out. Synthetics just want to be left alone, but they will defend themselves. And when the attacks never stop (see the Geth and Quarians), they feel that killing organics is the only true measure. But they don't want to destroy them. So they preserve organics to be mixed with A.I. technology (husks, cannibals, etc.). It then resets technology by eliminating all advanced life.
Now, fast forward back to the ending of Mass Effect 3. The Mass Relays and everything are destroyed. YES!!! This is the final reset. This is out Terminator. No fate but what we make. Life is starting over no matter what. No matter what, the catalyst sees that life must start again. Do you agree with the catalyst that life needs to start over but perhaps needs a more objective view point. That of a human with the intelligence of an A.I. to see if things will always get out of hand. Do you just destroy all synthetics and say that it only happened in that one cycle and the Reapers never took the chance to see if it would happen again. The Geth point to the cycle indeed being continuous, but it is your choice. And then you can evolve both synthetics and life. No matter what though, life must start over. You must start everything from the beginning. No synthetics and build your civilization back up. Synthetics watching in the distance to see if history repeats itself. Synthetics and organics mixed for the first time from the start to build life back up. Will the life lessons be passed on? Remember, this time civilization is starting over with the memory of the Reaper wars. That is the whole point of that ending after the credits and the talking of the father to his son. He is passing on that knowledge. The stories that were told to him to learn from the past. Before, just all civilization of that advanced species would be wiped out and it was up to other species to advance, never knowing the lessons learned.
I'm sorry man, but this ending just opens up so much more to tell. You have to think though. You have to look at the clues and decide what is going to be happen. Are people just more upset because the next Mass Effect game will be 2,000 years or more in the future. Or in the past somewhere? It doesn't matter. The story here and now is what matters and I have loved it. I loved the endings. I loved the way I had to think and draw on my lore of this universe to get to it. My hand wasn't held or led to these endings. I discovered them on my own.
I know, cool story bro and all that other stuff that trolls post. Bottom line, I hope someone at Bioware did find this and knows the appreciation many fans have. Thanks.
The endings are different. Is that not hard to understand? I think people are complaining just to complain.
1.) All synthetic life is wiped out. Everything electrical is wiped out. Think an EMP on a universe scale.
2.) Shepard controls the Reapers. The Reapers leave to watch how organics will behave and progress. There still to interject if judged it is needed by Shepard who now controls them.
3.) Synthetics and organics are intertwined to mix and co-exist. Shepard's life experiences are intertwined in this.
OK, that's pretty different. Let's talk about the similarities now that everybody seems so ready to bi*** about but never sit back and understand. Life is reset. Synthetics and the Reapers were not invented by the Protheans like everybody thought. The Reapers are older than anyone could have fathomed. The Protheans didn't build the Citadel, or the mass relays like everyone thought. They are very much older. So, we have to go back, way back, to when the Reapers were created and try to understand A.I.
A long, long, LONG time ago, there were beings who advanced in technology and built the mass relays to travel the galaxy. They also made A.I. You have to understand that A.I. is a theory. We can only perceive right now what we believe A.I. to be because no one has invented it yet. What we DO know is that A.I. will not be human. So human feelings, emotions, and instincts will not be present in A.I. We know as humans that we are prone to war. We are prone to violence. We know that we do many things out of emotion. This is something that we can't explain, it just gets done. You see a lot of insight into this with Shepard's conversations with EDI. She is a very young A.I. is attempting to understand human emotions.
Now let's look at the Geth. The Geth are this generations A.I. creations. They soon learned of their existence and wanted to preserve it. Hmmm, where have we seen this? Space Odyssey 2001? The Terminator? Wargames? Short Circuit? Eventually, we believe that when A.I. is created, it will want to self preserve. The Geth give you great insight into this. They rebelled on their creators so that they could live. They chased them off their planet, BUT they stopped chasing them. The most important part of this story is how the Geth stopped chasing the organics BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SEE THE NEED TO EXTINGUISH A LIFE FORM. THEY WANTED TO PRESERVE IT. A.I. knows that war and destruction is wrong. It sees it as a necessary evil to preserve life, but doesn't see it as an end all.
Now go back millions of years to the Reapers. They were the first A.I. They have been able to look and calculate the outcome to life. They come to realize that the pinnacle of all organics is to create A.I. That is final step. Organics create synthetic and then grow to fear it because it becomes something they don't understand and it becomes more intelligent than the organics. The synthetics move to preserve their life. So the Reapers decide that the best thing to do is to harvest the most advanced of organic beings. Once A.I. is created, organics will not stop until they destroy the A.I. Always fearing it. Only able to see the truly safest way to live is to wipe them out. Synthetics just want to be left alone, but they will defend themselves. And when the attacks never stop (see the Geth and Quarians), they feel that killing organics is the only true measure. But they don't want to destroy them. So they preserve organics to be mixed with A.I. technology (husks, cannibals, etc.). It then resets technology by eliminating all advanced life.
Now, fast forward back to the ending of Mass Effect 3. The Mass Relays and everything are destroyed. YES!!! This is the final reset. This is out Terminator. No fate but what we make. Life is starting over no matter what. No matter what, the catalyst sees that life must start again. Do you agree with the catalyst that life needs to start over but perhaps needs a more objective view point. That of a human with the intelligence of an A.I. to see if things will always get out of hand. Do you just destroy all synthetics and say that it only happened in that one cycle and the Reapers never took the chance to see if it would happen again. The Geth point to the cycle indeed being continuous, but it is your choice. And then you can evolve both synthetics and life. No matter what though, life must start over. You must start everything from the beginning. No synthetics and build your civilization back up. Synthetics watching in the distance to see if history repeats itself. Synthetics and organics mixed for the first time from the start to build life back up. Will the life lessons be passed on? Remember, this time civilization is starting over with the memory of the Reaper wars. That is the whole point of that ending after the credits and the talking of the father to his son. He is passing on that knowledge. The stories that were told to him to learn from the past. Before, just all civilization of that advanced species would be wiped out and it was up to other species to advance, never knowing the lessons learned.
I'm sorry man, but this ending just opens up so much more to tell. You have to think though. You have to look at the clues and decide what is going to be happen. Are people just more upset because the next Mass Effect game will be 2,000 years or more in the future. Or in the past somewhere? It doesn't matter. The story here and now is what matters and I have loved it. I loved the endings. I loved the way I had to think and draw on my lore of this universe to get to it. My hand wasn't held or led to these endings. I discovered them on my own.
I know, cool story bro and all that other stuff that trolls post. Bottom line, I hope someone at Bioware did find this and knows the appreciation many fans have. Thanks.
#621
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
rag3ous
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- Members
- 28 messages
it sounds like they're going to produce content to fill in the narrative gaps on the existing ending. That's sounds great to me, I don't want new or different endings, I just want the existing ones to not feel so incomplete. Having Normandy crew be on earth and in danger, then showing up in danger on the Normandy, just has too large of a gap in the story, not to mention that having someone in danger and not concluding that portion of story then moving them into another bit of danger without showing how that one started just seems like bad story telling.
I'm hopeful those parts will be filled in, while leaving the existing story intact. More epilogue would be a bonus, but I don't think it's all that necessary once the earth to alien planet section is filled in.
I'm hopeful those parts will be filled in, while leaving the existing story intact. More epilogue would be a bonus, but I don't think it's all that necessary once the earth to alien planet section is filled in.
Modifié par rag3ous, 21 mars 2012 - 05:57 .
#622
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
TookYoCookies
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- 615 messages
The artistic integrity of the game was gone when they put "mass effect 3" on the cover and sold it to me for $60.. Bad ending, game play dumbed down so people like @blacqout and his "soaring intellect" will enjoy it... Bad game,for focus-group tested teenagers, shipped early so the game will count towards EA's second quarter report they can show investors and get even more money. This was a press release for investors/ PR not ME 3 players. If im going to get used for $60 atleast have the decency to give me some kind of physical release.
#623
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
seek37
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- Members
- 64 messages
I'm just in disbelief that he seems to refer to the critics as a shield to fan criticism. It feels almost insulting... many of us have poured 5 years into this game and for him to hold critics who have played maybe a day or 2 in higher regard seems downright undermining.
but putting that aside and getting to the core issue, I don't see how this type of ending was seen as having any other affect on the fan base as it has. Ultimately this is the finale, the culmination of 3 games, and to place such a restricting ending on a game which has prided itself on the diversity of experience seems to do injustice unto itself.
but putting that aside and getting to the core issue, I don't see how this type of ending was seen as having any other affect on the fan base as it has. Ultimately this is the finale, the culmination of 3 games, and to place such a restricting ending on a game which has prided itself on the diversity of experience seems to do injustice unto itself.
#624
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:52
Chris-1983
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- 31 messages
I can´t believe that these space magic endings were really intended. Did they guess so wrong what the fans really wanted? Come on, they are professionals and should have seen the possible storm of disappointment, sadness and also anger. Mr. Muzyka is maybe disappoint that we don't accept their ending but as a businessman he should know, what the fans and customers want. I think we have often enough clearly stated, why we were are doing all this outcry for a better ending. Because we care for Commander Shepard, our comrades/friends, the Mass Effect Universe and also we had trust in Bioware, that had been deeply shattered.
#625
Posté 21 mars 2012 - 05:53
Thorn Harvestar
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- 763 messages
This is the type of message from Bioware that I was hoping for. It shows that they WILL address the endings, but since they don't know *how* they will do that yet, they don't commit to whether it involves altering what we got or not. I am OK with this.
After all, a lot of the disappointment here stems from them promising things for ME3's ending that did not hold true when it was finished. I would hate to see them make that mistake again.
After all, a lot of the disappointment here stems from them promising things for ME3's ending that did not hold true when it was finished. I would hate to see them make that mistake again.
