883 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Omg when will Bioware/people get the point?...they Don't have to change the last 10 minutes. They don't need to change anything.that is already in the game....they just need to release the dlc that comes after he Wakes UP! This is all layed out for them perfectly.....

All they need to do is pick up their pens, and write in the epic finale that factors in all of your choices....let us kick Harbingers ass, and its party time.....seriously, it doesn't take a genius to make this happen

I swear if they give us a stupid epilogue with still frames and text explaining what happens, its just as lazy as what we got for the last 10 minutes taken at face value

[Silver5k]

Oh man.

Why'd you have to bring up the "Compter games are art" card over *this* game, of all things, Mr. Mzyu... Mr. Mz... Mr. Bioware Founder who I have a lot of respect for but can never get the name right if I don't look it up (sorry!).

In some ways, they're art. In some they aren't.

Real art polarizes, it offends, it criticizes, or it might "only" be damn nice to look at.

Blockbuster movies almost never polarize, offend, and criticize. People go in there to leave with a feeling of satisfaction.

The hardest thing you can do, is something that both entertains, but also does everything else "art" does.

The term "art" itself is so nebulous, I don't think anyone can ever come up with a clear definition of what art is. Much smarter people than us have tackled with the question "What is art?" over the centuries.

So why bring it up here, of all places? The end of your extremely popular and entertaining Mass Éffect trilogy? Does it have to be art because you Biowarians decided it is?

The nature of roleplaying games puts them in a special place anyway - the player's will is much more a part of this - the "how?" becomes more important than the "what?".

A linear shooter game dictates the course of action, almost like a movie or a book does. Computer RPGs demand that you as a player take part in the development of the story.

And that's the cardinal sin you've commited here, IMO. You've had the player take part in how things play out in the story, what happens when and how. Only in the last five minutes did you turn it around, remove all player choice - which is the very reason for the outcry here.

You decide to "polarize" in the last five minutes - but didn't get polarization, you got utter rejection.

Claiming "This is art" at that point implies a "You just don't get it!" to go along with it. You know full well, that noone on here will be able to disprove the claim "This is art", because you know full well that noone on here will likely agree what art is and isn't. You've got every right to claim your games are art - some people throw a piece of butter in the corner of a room, and proclaim: "This is art" Maybe they're right, maybe they aren't.

But coming on here, and invoking "Artistic integrity" on *this* game of all places is a cop out, IMO - and a weak one at that.

Wether it's art or not is determined in hindsight, anyway. In the meantime, I'd like a satisfying ending to my blockbuster game, my piece of entertainment, a story that I had a part in until the last five minutes.

See if the art card sticks in a few more years, or even decades, please.

EDIT: This came out sounding a bit more offended than I intended:

TLDR: I don't know what is art and what isn't.

I've played and taken part in a game I loved up to the last minutes. I don't like the ending.

I find, calling it art and invoking artistic integrity over the endings is both unfair to the fans, and to the much, MUCH larger question of "What is art?" in general.

I just hope you don't make any decisions on the matter of principle, because the result of that decision would have ramfications on the overall industry or debate.

I don't think it's our, or *your* decision either, neither is it the decision of some guy on Kotaku or IGN.

Time, and only time, will judge your game and your work.

Until then, I'm all egoistic, and just want a happy ending to the trilogy I was a part of for the last five years.

Modifié par Silver5k, 21 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[darkshadow136]

I personally see this new response by Bioware co-founder as more PR. They are still defending the ending, trying to label the people that dislike it as the minority, when every poll either here or on other sites say otherwise. There is also a great disconnect with reviews of the game, big magazines and sites that do a lot of advertising or in IGN case they had one of their own in the game. They give the game great reviews, even though they have a conflict of interest, and smaller but more honest reviewers of the game echo our dislike of not only the endings but how the endings reflect on the series lore itself.

All I got out of the Co-founder speech was PR damage control, defense of the ending and of the staff, trying to make the people that disliked the ending as a minority, and watch out we are answering questions in DLC so get out your wallets.

If the game is so good, and we are so few. Why does he say anything at all. It boils down to this they are realizing that they can’t sweep this under the rug like they did DA2. DA2 had supposed critical acclaim, but the user score of the game was very low. I think it comes down to this sites and magazines that Bioware and EA pay big advertising too always seem to rate the games favorable, Smaller reviewers, and user score their games Honestly.

[klblamble]

I guess I just find the ending hard to believe, I mean, after all Liara's work to just get shepard's body back in 2 - are they really all going to board the Normandy and take off? I think that is flawed honestly.. kinda undos all the me2 stuff..

[beccathelion]

Wait. I am very confused: www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-ending-changed-video-gamer-backlash-bioware-announces-article-1.1048196

[1490]

New York Daily News seems to interpret Dr. Ray's message as a promise to change the game's ending:

www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-ending-changed-video-gamer-backlash-bioware-announces-article-1.1048196

[vvEvilvKittenvv]

xdognatex wrote...

Their waiting for april fools day to give you dlc of a new ending, but it will be the same ending.

Or a nicely put together disney ending.. that was all liara/joker/LI's dream.. in reality the galaxy's gone to ****..shep's dead...Joker ran away from the fight to get in edis good books and our LI is scamming on another crewmate.. 

.............Or it's an ending that has tootsie rolls and popsicles.. and we can beat udina and TIM to death with their spines while the reapers watch wearing monicles and sipping tea with our squad mates..

Space magic.. it's awesome

Modifié par vvEvilvKittenvv, 21 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I did marketing. A company hears from only 3% of the dissatisfied customers. A dissatisfied customer that has not been satisfied will tell 26 other people about their experience.

I'm also a musician/composer. We have a saying in this. Those who can, do. Those who can teach, teach. Those who can do neither, become critics. :rimshot:

Enough of that. We cannot give up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXLVFnl3WcE

[Neophoenix 78]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I will reply to an earlier challenge to my point of view.

For the record I totall disagree with your BSN's response to this. The childish entitled brat accusations appear to be right with every new thread that's created.

Again to me you all are entirely contradicting this whole "hold the line" movement. You held the line and your making progress. I'll put what you all look like in an example. Imagine we're in a war. We're holding the line... They take shot at us saying we're childish. We hold the line... They then open up some thread for us to give feedback and that's like them giving up some ground on the battlefield. We then say we're holding the line while also chanting "your not giving up ground, your trying to fool us!! Derp!!" then they respond via twitter, Facebook and so on...

Once again we claim they are trying to pull PR stunts while that battleground line is looking more and more in our favor... *sigh*

Then Ray gives this... And here we go... "it's bullsh**" "don't fall for it!!!, Holdz teh lyyyyneee!!!"

Ray just basically said that they are at the negotiation table to negotiate a truce with us, and the lot of you are far too blind to even see that.

I just dropped my "hold the line" flags, you guys are childish and entitled, I will not be associated with that.

Instead I appeal to the real fans of this game and franchise to hold out to April and like true soldiers wait to see if Bioware keeps their word and honor what they say. That's the adult thing to do. Sometimes I forget we share this space with babies too.

When you call people babies, say to the real fans of the game (illuding to the fact those still who are voicing their concerns are not real fans), using Derp to desribe how we sound to you really defeats the purpose of stating you are acting like an adult. It seems like you are just stereotypeing everyone that is dissatified with the blog and the endings. Kudos you are not. Some of us are still voicing our opinions. But again thank you for labeling us. Can I make a suggestion? Like maybe ditch the Asari avatar and go for something more fitting like Cerberus.  Do you see how that is a more original attempt at humor?

Modifié par Neophoenix 78, 21 mars 2012 - 06:21 .

[iamthedave3]

beccathelion wrote...

Wait. I am very confused: www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-ending-changed-video-gamer-backlash-bioware-announces-article-1.1048196

Pretty sure they're misreading what he said.

[mattynutz]

It just occurred to me that, if the people displeased with the endings that were delivered were in the minority, would there be any reason for Muzyka to issue this missive?

[Myrmedus]

I wouldn't be too critical. He's not going to come out and say "Ye, the endings are garbage, we'll sort it" because that's going to totally screw sales.

He's trying to balance future success of the game as is with giving credence to us, and he does this by acknowledging us but also putting in a bit about review scores (to keep potential customers interested). I think it's a pretty good message. Of course, if the trail goes cold after this message, then it's irrelevant but for now it's pretty good.

[Kraykan82]

I'm already into my second playthrough. I love this game.

My advice people, is to chill out, maybe start an NG+ while you wait until April and then see what happens.

All this madness needs to stop, and people really need to calm down.

[KeldorKatarn]

Kraykan82 wrote...

My advice people, is to chill out, maybe start an NG+.

What for? So I can get SCREWED+ ??

[1490]

iamthedave3 wrote...

beccathelion wrote...

Wait. I am very confused: www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-ending-changed-video-gamer-backlash-bioware-announces-article-1.1048196

Pretty sure they're misreading what he said.

Probably, though I think that misinterpretation may even be a benefit to the Retake movement, as other news agencies will pick up on that and possibly headline stories in the same way.  If Bioware didn't follow through with it, it would risk the next headline being: "Bioware goes back on promise to change game."

Modifié par 1490, 21 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[Myrmedus]

I agree to chill the hell out...there's always going to be a degree of PR spin because they need to consider how the sales of the product could plummet. You can bet that message will be spread around every major gaming site on the web, and if people see a full on "we made a crap ending" message who are on the fence about buying into ME then that'll probably push them away.

Just don't be naive.

Having said that I won't be doing an NG+ yet haha.

I won't be doing that til a) an ending DLC is released I hear about how good/bad it is c) that DLC is firmly attached to my game and ready for playing.

Then I'll start a NG+

Modifié par Myrmedus, 21 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[Silrian]

Swisspease wrote...

Steppzor wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

That the newest attempt to let fans know what the team at Bioware is thinking and what direction they are moving in is met with unwarranted amounts of cynicism no longer surprises me. I know there are other reasonable people here, reading and not responding who want endgame content to be released, so on their behalf and my own: thank you, Ray Muzyka, for your thoughtful reply.

It is always hard to have any aspect of your creative work torn down by criticism and I think it speaks highly of you and your team that you are swallowing your pride and accepting that criticism. The more feedback I hear from you, the more confident I become that you will make a good-faith effort to address the problems we have with the endings. I think almost all of the "Retake Mass Effect" crowd would agree that, up until the ending, Mass Effect 3 *was* the most engaging, emotional, and powerful story-telling that Bioware has ever accomplished. I think we would agree that, sans the ending, Mass Effect 3 really was the best work you and your team have done. It is because of the excellence of that work that I am confident that in addressing the thematic and rhetorical inconsistencies of the ending the Mass Effect 3 team will be able to craft an ending worthy of the masterpiece that is the rest of the game.

To fellow BSNers, this is another obvious move towards Bioware accepting our perspective and even includes the promise that plans for content to address the ending are being drawn up AS WE SPEAK. This is good news and cannot be spun otherwise by any reasonable person. Keep on holding the line and know that our message is getting through. We will never get every single thing we want, but I honestly believe that Bioware intends to make a good-faith effort to resolve as many issues with the ending as they can. Be happy! This is good news! And, of course, keep on holding the line!

Well writen. I approve this message

I also approve.

Still Holding The Line

I support this view as well. 

[beccathelion]

1490 wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

beccathelion wrote...

Wait. I am very confused: www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/mass-effect-3-ending-changed-video-gamer-backlash-bioware-announces-article-1.1048196

Pretty sure they're misreading what he said.

Probably, though I think that misinterpreation may even be a benefit to the Retake movement, as other news agencies will pick up on that and follow it.  Not following through with it would risk the next headline: "Bioware goes back on promise to change game."

God, wouldn't that be a silver lining shooting across the RBG sky?

[Kilshrek]

I don't know.

I would really love to agree with Dr Muzyka here, but at the same time, I'm bitterly dissatisfied by what appears to be the conclusion to my 5 year journey.

Dear Dr Muzyka, you may or may not ever read this, but I will put this opinion of mine on these forums in the hope that someone on the team may see it, and if they see fit, to forward it to you, it is as much a reply to your reply, as it is to the team themselves.

I'll list the very basic points that have so disappointed me, and hopefully someone will see some sense in this :

Introducing a new character at the death. I don't know if there's a trope for this, but Harbinger was touted for the whole of ME 2 to be the main antagonist. In ME 3 there never was one, merely the Reapers, and to a degree, Cerberus. Switching antagonists at the end, from TIM, to the sudden appearance of God Child, who gives Shepard 3 choices they can't refuse, where is the choice? What does this do to reflect all that I've done, all that I've sacrificed? To have all my efforts ignored, such as performing all the C-Sec tasks, only to find out that the Citadel gets captured by the Reapers anyway, to listening stupidly to a damn AI proselytise about concepts which I had not 10 hours ago disproved in a big way, well tell me that isn't a slap in the face from the story. It's telling me, no, player, you're stupid, listen to me, I know what's what. My choices are, self sacrifice to control the Reapers, who were meant to be more like Geth, individual, with no leader; merge everything into organic-synthetic hybrids; or genocide of the Geth, whom I had just given a new lease on life.

If that's how the story ends then it reflected none of my choices, it took into account nothing I had done before, and most importantly, it railroads me into 3 choices I equally abhor. It is unacceptable, please, Dr Muzyka, realise this.

Even disregarding all the dev promises that were made along the way, it is not possible to not realise that Mass Effect was always about choice. What choices you made always came back to haunt or help you, and I believe the finest example of this was with Conrad Verner and Jenna on the Citadel. If you helped these two individuals, who had nothing to do with each other in ME 1, they would return to help you in ME 3, in a single event. That was a very nice nod to what we'd done before. Sadly, the final minutes of the game simply do not live up to this at all, to have everything stripped away, and then have three choices that have nothing to do with the game prior to this, I find it mind boggling that they should have ever made it into the final game.

Moving on to the art argument, I fully respect that games are art, but they are also art made on the feedback from the customer, us, and to say that the artist has full control over their art is a nice sentiment, but one I disagree with. We have worked with Bioware over the last 5 years to create the fine story that Mass Effect has now, we too have a small stake in the story, and should we not have a small say in how it ends? It is the most disappointing end to a game I have ever experienced, simply because I have never played a game over 5 years. 5 years Dr Muzyka, and hundreds of hours poured into the game that Bioware started, but we the players helped to create. The team may have their vision, but I respectfully say that vision was too narrow. It simply focused too closely on what Mr Hudson declares as "bittersweet", but if I were asked to provide examples of bittersweet endings, I would never consider ME 3's ending to be among such things. I would point to a famous literary example for a bittersweet ending, The Lord Of The Rings :

In the books, after Sauron is vanquished and Middle Earth is rescued from the threat of darkness, the land lay in ruin, worthy souls and loved ones were lost, but we knew that there was victory. Much that was destroyed could be rebuilt, lives that were lost could be celebrated. The four hobbits return to the Shire, where they find that Saruman had enslaved their people and destroyed their homes with industry, but the four friends had learned much on their travels, and defeated Saruman. The Shire was nearly destroyed however, but Samwise had gifts from Galadriel that could heal those wounds. Frodo's wound would never heal however, and he finally departed to the West with Gandalf and Bilbo. Thus the Fellowship was truly broken, but not before their purpose was done. And note that none of the main characters, beyond Boromir, really died.

The movies were not too different in the bittersweet ending, except that scenes were cut and straight lines were made between two points which may have taken longer to get to, Frodo still leaves with Gandalf and Bilbo, and the parting does well to capture the bittersweet moment. Dear friends must be forever parted, because some wounds will never truly heal.

I only felt absolute despair as Shepard was forced to make 3 choices that made no sense to the character, and despair as it felt that all my work was undone at the whim of a child like entity. To add to the insult was the scene with the Normandy escaping the explosion of the Catalyst, to what purpose? Why did the people I bring down to Earth abandon me in my time of need? Would my squad really abandon me in the final push to the beam? I cannot understand why they were not with me at the end. It makes no sense Dr Muzyka, and I wish you could see it from my perspective. If someone on the team would care to answer that question, and provide me with an answer as to why this was the case I could do my best to see it the way they see it.

I have said as much as I can without addressing the pre-release promises, which should be another issue altogether.

Regards,

Kilshrek
A very disappointed Mass Effect fan

PS : Referring to the warm media reception is all well and good, but I daresay the fan reaction has not been as unanimous as the media, and that only serves to highlight the divide between "professional" opinion and "personal" opinion. I will not disagree that the rest of the game is excellent, it could have been much better, if there were less fetch quests, the same level of PC NPC interaction as previous titles, and various minor issues, but as it stands, it is not the finest game in the series, and most certainly not Bioware's finest.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 21 mars 2012 - 06:30 .

[maddlarkin]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Spot on man. Spot on. 


-Polite

Miekkas wrote...

I'm sorry, but I cannot bring myself to believe anthing you say right now with these continued PR tactics, Bioware. This is nothing more than yet another public relations attempt at trying to dismiss the issue that players have stated and outlined in the feedback thread and numerous others since day one of this debacle. You are continuing to accuse people who do not like the ending as a "vocal minority", citing critics as though their opinion is gospel and right no matter what, and completely misrepresenting what the players want.

1. Across the internet, I have not seen a single poll where more than 15% is happy with the endings. A massive majority in polls whether it be BSN's, IGN's (who vehemently critisized tha fans), Computer Gaming, etc have all resulted in over 80% stating that they are unhappy. In some cases, the percents are in the 90 percentile. That is not a vocal minority Bioware. These polls number in the tens of thousands as a sample size when regular polls usually only number a few thousand in sample size. At one point does it take you to realize that there are a lot of unhappy people over the ending?

2. Stop citing "professional" game review critics in some attempt to make it seem as though the fans do not have legitimate complaints. These types of media outlets, IGN especially, are infamous for taking payouts from companies for good reviews. The opinions of the players is what matters, not some paid critic. They are the ones who are the main direct source of your income, not critics.

3. You continue to simplify the issue by stating players are just looking for more closure and clarity. Take a look at the feedback thread that YOU made. The issues with this endings are a lot more complex that you are willing to publicly admit. Even the average gamer without a degree in literature can point out the glaring issues with the endings, but you publicly pretend that they don't exist because you don't want to admit that you messed up very badly. There are thousands of posts in the feedback thread alone, many building off of each other, that point out every single issue with the endings from illogical plotholes to violations of characters and themes to pointing out half truths you have told like having 16 different endings.

Stop insulting our intelligence, Bioware, or we will somply take our business to someone who does not take us for fools. Make an announce that addresses us with respect and as valued customers, not with dismissive, sterile public relations statements. Customers want empathy and to be treated as human beings. Heck, maybe they want to develop a friendly and first name basis with the developers. When you connect with your customers on a personal level, you are much more likely to retain their loyalty and hear you out before taking their business elsewhere. This is customer service 101 that even those who do not work in business know. Instead you are doing the exact opposite of this, and that is why people, including me, are inclined to believe anything you say until new endings are downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase.

Hold the line, folks. Do not believe a single word they say until the new endings have been downloaded and meet the approval of the fanbase. Keep on the pressure.

Couldn't agree more...

Hold The Line

[Myrmedus]

Oh sure, keep up the pressure, but also recognise the message for what it is. Noone's talking about reducing the pressure, heh.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

http://www.nydailyne...ksEnabled=false

[MissMaster_2]

KONG33 wrote...

The difference between the fans and the critics-The critics didn't finish OR pay for the game. The fans did.

Yes. This. It's a slap in the face when they bring up the critic thing.

[superwampa]

darkshadow136 wrote...



All I got out of the Co-founder speech was PR damage control, defense of the ending and of the staff, trying to make the people that disliked the ending as a minority, and watch out we are answering questions in DLC so get out your wallets.
.

Yeah, but what else could they do? The Co-founder could not just write a letter apologizing to his fans, can he? If he does so, he is doing disservice to the whole team that created ME3. Of course it is PR, but I think they are doing something real (like upcoming DLC or whatever) about it.

Another thing Dr. Muzyka is trying to say is that don't consider ME3 to be an inferior game because you don't like the ending. That's the reason he quotes so many game critics. In my opinion, ME3 has better gameplay, inventory system, codex, war asset (as mechanism, not effect on story), and planet scanning. Some story moments in ME3 like Rannoch mission is also the highlight for the whole trilogy.

Now, some musing about quoting all these gaming critics. I think there is a difference between a fan and a critic. A critic doesn't really care about the "spirit" of the game, they are more interested in the game as a whole in terms of graphics, gameplay, story...etc. So if I were a critic, I'd rate this game a 9/10. But from a fan's view, I'd rate ME3 lower because it did not capture the universe's "spirit."

[hector7rau]

This doesn't change anything. He's pretty much saying they're gonna put content to explain this dumb ending, and for me that doesn't make it. I guess i'll wait and see...