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BioWare Co-Founder Ray Muzyka to Mass Effect players


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#726
1490

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Fulgrim88 wrote...

1490 wrote...

Lots of people want lots of different things,but bottom line, pretty much EVERYONE who didn't like the ending wants: more closure, more choices, and more evidence that what you did in the 3 games mattered.  If they were really smart, they would give the fans what they want.  They could turn a PR nightmare into a PR dream.  It has gotten so much attention now, pretty much everyone is going to want to buy the DLC just to see what all the fuss is about.  They earn a ton of money, fans are really happy and spread Bioware's good name.  Win/win.

I fully agree. And hope they realise that

P.S.: It's nice to have an actual discussion around here, as in "an exchange of thoughts"
So often these days, being quoted by someone just means you're in for some hotheaded nitpicking^_^


Either that or your comment gets absolutely buried in all of the other discussions that are going on around here.  I've met some really cool people on here though from all over the place.  I live alone in central New York, 2,900 miles from the nearest person I know, so it's nice to get on here from time to time and communicate with all the people that share my interests.  Even though these games have caused us a lot of distress lately, they have really brought us together too!

Modifié par 1490, 21 mars 2012 - 06:57 .


#727
gameshrk

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VettoRyouzou wrote...

I kinda stopped caring when he said "Critics have given us a good review!"

Critics =/= Fans.


How often do game critics actually finish a game 100%?

#728
Neophoenix 78

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"Building on their research, Exec Producer
Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content
initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity
for those seeking further closure to their journey."

So we are to take solace in the fact the same team that created this debacle will be the same team to fix it. Doing the same thing over and expecting a different outcome. Is that not the definition of insanity? If the endings were truly canon there is a huge disconnect occuring. How a group of people could think this was acceptable only to have so many fans tell them it is not should have a huge warning. It does not seem that way, as they are heading up fixing this problem.

I am sorry but something is rotten here. I should not be made to feel pity for people who allowed this to happen. I should not feel bad that this person is recieving negative critisicm. This should be a sign that people are working there or in positions there that might not want or should be there. If so many people have an issue that the Co-Founder has to make a public statment then something is horribly wrong. And having that same out of touch group working on it might not be in the best interest for the fans customers Bioware & EA

Modifié par Neophoenix 78, 21 mars 2012 - 07:03 .


#729
geckosentme

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Hi Dr. Muzyka,

First, you are absolutely right. Mass Effect 3, and the series as a whole, is a triumph. The accolades from reviewers and critics are well-deserved laurels for this series and team.

That said, the fundamental problem with the current ending as I see it, is not a lack of choice, or that "player choice" didn't figure more prominently into the end...I see all of ME3 as "the end" and my previous choices over ME1 & 2 did figure prominently in the events of the "ending"...

..the problem is that through out the ME series, renegade or paragon, Shepard has always fought for certain principles: significantly the value of diversity & the right of self-determination, and against strict utilitarianism.

This stands in stark contrast to the arguments of the Reapers who value "order" and see the diversity and right of self-determination that organics value as "chaos" that must be brought to "order" through extermination and "ascension" to some type of corporate "group entity."

Throughout the course of the 3 games, Shepard and her/his companions have repudiated these Reaper arguments both morally & by force of arms.

In the final sequence with the current ending the Star Child forces upon the player three decision, all of which violate one or more of the basic principles which have come to represent the subtext of the game. Choose "control" and Shepard concedes to the utilitarian arguments of the Illusive Man, choose "synthesis" and Shepard betrays her/his commitment to self-determination--as Shepard becomes the decider that all other species will be merged with synthetics her/his self and obliviates some level of diversity in the process as well. Choose "destroy" and Shepard again is forced to reject the value of diversity, wiping out both good and bad synthetics.

These are false choices and feel completely contrived. The reapers are malevolent and evil entities; no compromise with their values can be brooked. It matters less to me whether Shepard lives or dies, succeeds or fails in stopping the Reapers, but I do think that it's important that the character not be reduced to such an artificial choice that repudiates everything the character has previously stood and fought for for over 90+ hours of game play.

One ending is fine--Shepard dies next to Anderson, the Reapers win. It was an impossible fight, but lost with honor. As it stands now Shepard neither wins nor maintains his or her honor or convictions--and that feels very hollow and artificial.

I apologize for the lack of brevity but hope you made it to the end.

tldr; the current StarChild ending and the artificial & contrived choices (and even more contrived consequences) offered violate the basic message of the ME series and the character of Shepard her/himself.

That said, I loved the ME series and this final game. It is truly a wonder. I have merely chosen for future playthrus to turn of my console after the final touching scene between Shepard and Anderson that validates the characters and the message of the game rather than precede onward to the Star Child sequence.

I just wish I didn't have to do that.

Warmest Regards & Thanks for many hours of wonderful game play,

Steve T.

Modifié par geckosentme, 21 mars 2012 - 07:08 .


#730
Revanmug

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thebatmanreborn wrote...

[That is just a dictionary definition.  Art is definitely a word that conjures up debate.  And no, saying something is art doesn't give you cover to hide behind it.  Art is open to critism.  Artists need to be willing to learn from criticism.  At the same time, creative intergrity needs to be maintained.  It's a balancing act.  


One, you use a dictionnary definition about something as blurred like art to make your post shorter. Alright, I'll pass on that.

But here is the most amazing sentence. Creative integrity. Integrity. First thing first, Bioware is a company that employ people to make money and nothing else. And that is fine! Would it not make money, it wouldn't exist. Bioware is also a company that make mostly RPG (at least, ME was suppose to be one). Role Playing Game. The "creative integrity" should then come mostly from the player, not the company since guess what, the player is the most shaping his own story.

Another problem is that in a business with so little rules since it is quite new, "integritry" is the first thing to fall. In any other "art" business like book for exemple since we talk about story, I can rent the book or look at previews of the book before buying it! It gave me the choice to actually decide if I like it first or not! Don't like it? Don't buy it but leave the writer alone­. Can you do that with gaming? Not really. "official reviewers" are pretty much corrupted (look at Kane and Lynch 2 for one exemple). Renting doesn't exist and buying used game is at lost nowaday with those new pass. To make mather worst, most gaming company has comes with new tricks! "Pre order now and get bonus item!"

Now, add all  those inbefore launch devs talk and preview. ME3 is the perfect exemple of interview that were completly filled with lies to hype their games! We are not talking of 1-2 year old interviews but those from like 1-2 months! The game was done at that point. Let's not even get to the day 1 dlc that was also a lie from a to z... Sadly, there is nothing you can do about it. I have the impression of seeing BF3 again.

Is it normal that people should never trust what a devs said before a game launch because it might be lies and say person that represent that company cannot be hold to account? I don't think so. It is not integrity!

You talk of "creative" integrity and balance. I tell you we are in another business patern then books. A business that has pretty much no rules to follow and bend over the few in front. A business where this particular branch of services is to make the customer create their own story. OR so they said it was. If Bioware create an ending that doesn't respond to their own criteria, how can it be "business or story integrity" toward their customer? And as long as this is the case, they shouldn't be able to hide behind the so call "this is art" excuse.

-Not changing the ending is admiting that everything they said were lies (in other words, don't trust them anymore). It is admiting that "integrity" is not important for their business and story! remember, ME3 was a game about how YOU shape the universe as commander Shepard.

-Changing the ending is admiting it made an error. Everybody make mistakes and for that, Bioware is working to fix the unforgivable. We are now talking of a company that care about its integrity in both ways.

TL:DR : Creative integrity in a RPG is the most weird idea I ever heard. Comparing this as another art market is also weird seing as business is quite different from one to another.

#731
clarkusdarkus

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look its pretty simple, just give us what we were told pre release what our choices would entail, the mere fact he said april is giving them 6 weeks practically to do something which of course they hope the retake slows down and they can do whatever dlc they want. im glad his come out and said something as it shows acknowledgement and getting somewhere but lets be clear about something, they were happy with the endings they created already, what makes you think they'll create something that gives closure. i personally feel they wont be able to make all out choices matter and give us what we were told pre release. but i have hope they blow me away with something like when mass effect came out.

#732
TemplarComander

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I have been avidly following this and while I at first loved the ending of Mass Effect 3, I can see why many people have issues with a lot of it. After examining the ending, reading responses, and playing it again, I will agree that it does have a number of issues.

That said, I still have faith in Bioware after what an amazing experience the entire Mass Effect trilogy was, that they do care about fans opinions, and they want us to be satisfied. I will eagerly await more announcements.

Modifié par TemplarComander, 21 mars 2012 - 07:07 .


#733
Oakenshield1

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Our rage will never be quelled with soothing words, Mr. Muzyka.

#734
1490

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Major news groups are picking this story up like wildfire. Now CBS:

www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-57401660-501465/mass-effect-3-apology-bioware-co-founder-releases-statement/

#735
Stakis

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i think Dr Ray still believes we didnt understand the ending so closure, aka " we will explain to you all like your 6 years old " is going to be their course of action, expected i guess, and apparently critics buy lots of games from bioware, such is the good doctors concern with them.

#736
Cinnamintz

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Sc2mashimaro wrote...

That the newest attempt to let fans know what the team at Bioware is thinking and what direction they are moving in is met with unwarranted amounts of cynicism no longer surprises me. I know there are other reasonable people here, reading and not responding who want endgame content to be released, so on their behalf and my own: thank you, Ray Muzyka, for your thoughtful reply.

It is always hard to have any aspect of your creative work torn down by criticism and I think it speaks highly of you and your team that you are swallowing your pride and accepting that criticism. The more feedback I hear from you, the more confident I become that you will make a good-faith effort to address the problems we have with the endings. I think almost all of the "Retake Mass Effect" crowd would agree that, up until the ending, Mass Effect 3 *was* the most engaging, emotional, and powerful story-telling that Bioware has ever accomplished. I think we would agree that, sans the ending, Mass Effect 3 really was the best work you and your team have done. It is because of the excellence of that work that I am confident that in addressing the thematic and rhetorical inconsistencies of the ending the Mass Effect 3 team will be able to craft an ending worthy of the masterpiece that is the rest of the game.

To fellow BSNers, this is another obvious move towards Bioware accepting our perspective and even includes the promise that plans for content to address the ending are being drawn up AS WE SPEAK. This is good news and cannot be spun otherwise by any reasonable person. Keep on holding the line and know that our message is getting through. We will never get every single thing we want, but I honestly believe that Bioware intends to make a good-faith effort to resolve as many issues with the ending as they can. Be happy! This is good news! And, of course, keep on holding the line!



Here, here.  Looking forward to it.  Holding the line.

Modifié par Cinnamintz, 21 mars 2012 - 07:12 .


#737
Fulgrim88

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1490 wrote...

Either that or your comment gets absolutely buried in all of the other discussions that are going on around here.  I've met some really cool people on here though from all over the place.  I live alone in central New York, 2,900 miles from the nearest person I know, so it's nice to get on here from time to time and communicate with all the people that share my interests.  Even though these games have caused us a lot of distress lately, they have really brought us together too!

Well said.

Heck, first thing I did after the ending was log on to these forums and voice my genuine feelings of sadness. And rather than being flamed, or belittled, I got, well, *hugged*^_^

It's truly a great community, at heart.

#738
Guest_All Dead_*

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geckosentme wrote...

Hi Dr. Muzyka,

First, you are absolutely right. Mass Effect 3, and the series as a whole, is a triumph. The accolades from reviewers and critics are well-deserved laurels for this series and team.

That said, the fundamental problem with the current ending as I see it, is not a lack of choice, or that "player choice" didn't figure more prominently into the end...I see all of ME3 as "the end" and my previous choices over ME1 & 2 did figure prominently in the events of the "ending"...

..the problem is that through out the ME series, renegade or paragon, Shepard has always fought for certain principles: significantly the value of diversity & the right of self-determination, and against strict utilitarianism.

This stands in stark contrast to the arguments of the Reapers who value "order" and see the diversity and right of self-determination that organics value as "chaos" that must be brought to "order" through extermination and "ascension" to some type of corporate "group entity."

Throughout the course of the 3 games, Shepard and her/his companions have repudiated these Reaper arguments both morally & by force of arms.

In the final sequence with the current ending the Star Child forces upon the player three decision, all of which violate one or more of the basic principles which have come to represent the subtext of the game. Choose "control" and Shepard concedes to the utilitarian arguments of the Illusive Man, choose "synthesis" and Shepard betrays her/his commitment to self-determination--as Shepard becomes the decider that all other species will be merged with synthetics her/his self and obliviates some level of diversity in the process as well. Choose "destroy" and Shepard again is forced to reject the value of diversity, wiping out both good and bad synthetics.

These are false choices and feel completely contrived. The reapers are malevolent and evil entities; no compromise with their values can be brooked. It matters less to me whether Shepard lives or dies, succeeds or fails in stopping the Reapers, but I do think that it's important that the character not be reduced to such an artificial choice that repudiates everything the character has previously stood and fought for for over 90+ hours of game play.

One ending is fine--Shepard dies next to Anderson, the Reapers win. It was an impossible fight, but lost with honor. As it stands now Shepard neither wins nor maintains his or her honor or convictions--and that feels very hollow and artificial.

I apologize for the lack of brevity but hope you made it to the end.

tldr; the current StarChild ending and the artificial & contrived choices (and even more contrived consequences) offered violate the basic message of the ME series and the character of Shepard her/himself.

That said, I loved the ME series and this final game. It is truly a wonder. I have merely chosen for future playthrus to turn of my console after the final touching scene between Shepard and Anderson that validates the characters and the message of the game rather than precede onward to the Star Child sequence.

I just wish I didn't have to do that.

Warmest Regards & Thanks for many hours of wonderful game play,

Steve T.


Great post. Please email that to them.

#739
1490

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Fulgrim88 wrote...

1490 wrote...

Either that or your comment gets absolutely buried in all of the other discussions that are going on around here.  I've met some really cool people on here though from all over the place.  I live alone in central New York, 2,900 miles from the nearest person I know, so it's nice to get on here from time to time and communicate with all the people that share my interests.  Even though these games have caused us a lot of distress lately, they have really brought us together too!

Well said.

Heck, first thing I did after the ending was log on to these forums and voice my genuine feelings of sadness. And rather than being flamed, or belittled, I got, well, *hugged*^_^

It's truly a great community, at heart.


Right there with you buddy.  The second the screen faded to the credits, I was logging on to the BSN to share my sorrow with my fellows here :)

#740
thebatmanreborn

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delete-double post.  

Modifié par thebatmanreborn, 21 mars 2012 - 07:22 .


#741
Chumasaurus

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DEMIKLY wrote...

Chumasaurus wrote...

I'm seriously feeling like there is mass confusion over what Ray's blog post actually means. And here's what it really means: Nothing. He did not really confirm or deny anything, it's just more dismissive public relations nonsense meaning little in the way of us moving forward. In all honesty I don't think we will know for certain what's going to happen until PAX because Bioware/EA doesn't seem to actually want to talk to us like humans, they'd rather just hide behind the wall that is corporation and consumer roles.

A cynical view that ignores a lot of the definitive statements in the response.

There was a date (albeit a month) for reveal.
There was a definate response regarding endgame DLC.
There was a definate statement of intent - that other DLC and "New Full Games" are being made/developed in addition to this now DEFINATE endgame DLC
That conclusion DLC will "maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback" : the DLC is happening bro.. you just choose to be a bit of a bitter bob....

Smile BROS, this is a s*****load more than we had a day ago - smoke em' if you got em....:bandit::bandit:


I'm not really being all that bitter, but the only thing he really talks about in respect to future things happening is contained in this:

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.  This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.

That's really not promising anything or even specifying that they are in fact fixing the ending. I'll admit that maybe I am misunderstanding something here, but this does not read to me as: In April you get better ending! Which is what I am seeing a lot of people taking it as.

#742
thebatmanreborn

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Revanmug wrote...

thebatmanreborn wrote...

[That is just a dictionary definition.  Art is definitely a word that conjures up debate.  And no, saying something is art doesn't give you cover to hide behind it.  Art is open to critism.  Artists need to be willing to learn from criticism.  At the same time, creative intergrity needs to be maintained.  It's a balancing act.  


One, you use a dictionnary definition about something as blurred like art to make your post shorter. Alright, I'll pass on that.

But here is the most amazing sentence. Creative integrity. Integrity. First thing first, Bioware is a company that employ people to make money and nothing else. And that is fine! Would it not make money, it wouldn't exist. Bioware is also a company that make mostly RPG (at least, ME was suppose to be one). Role Playing Game. The "creative integrity" should then come mostly from the player, not the company since guess what, the player is the most shaping his own story.

Another problem is that in a business with so little rules since it is quite new, "integritry" is the first thing to fall. In any other "art" business like book for exemple since we talk about story, I can rent the book or look at previews of the book before buying it! It gave me the choice to actually decide if I like it first or not! Don't like it? Don't buy it but leave the writer alone­. Can you do that with gaming? Not really. "official reviewers" are pretty much corrupted (look at Kane and Lynch 2 for one exemple). Renting doesn't exist and buying used game is at lost nowaday with those new pass. To make mather worst, most gaming company has comes with new tricks! "Pre order now and get bonus item!"

Now, add all  those inbefore launch devs talk and preview. ME3 is the perfect exemple of interview that were completly filled with lies to hype their games! We are not talking of 1-2 year old interviews but those from like 1-2 months! The game was done at that point. Let's not even get to the day 1 dlc that was also a lie from a to z... Sadly, there is nothing you can do about it. I have the impression of seeing BF3 again.

Is it normal that people should never trust what a devs said before a game launch because it might be lies and say person that represent that company cannot be hold to account? I don't think so. It is not integrity!

You talk of "creative" integrity and balance. I tell you we are in another business patern then books. A business that has pretty much no rules to follow and bend over the few in front. A business where this particular branch of services is to make the customer create their own story. OR so they said it was. If Bioware create an ending that doesn't respond to their own criteria, how can it be "business or story integrity" toward their customer? And as long as this is the case, they shouldn't be able to hide behind the so call "this is art" excuse.

-Not changing the ending is admiting that everything they said were lies (in other words, don't trust them anymore). It is admiting that "integrity" is not important for their business and story! remember, ME3 was a game about how YOU shape the universe as commander Shepard.

-Changing the ending is admiting it made an error. Everybody make mistakes and for that, Bioware is working to fix the unforgivable. We are now talking of a company that care about its integrity in both ways.

TL:DR : Creative integrity in a RPG is the most weird idea I ever heard. Comparing this as another art market is also weird seing as business is quite different from one to another.


The video game industry is not that different from the film industry.  And Bioware employs writers and really, us writers are not all that different, at least not in our creative approach.  The writers wrote every branch of dialogue and event that helped to shape your story.  As the gamer, we never wrote any of the dialogue, scripted a scene, or came up with plot details.  We also never did any of the graphic design, programming, directing, voice acting, etc that all go into making the game.  We are a participant in the story, but we are not the creators.  To be a creator would mean we are actually creating our own story and producing our own game.  

I don't think reviews are corrupt.  I don't see much evidence to support that claim.  Having reviewed games, comics, movies, and books myself for magazines and newspapers (including national publications), I was never paid off for my review.   I always had a rule of thumb to finish the material before writing the review.  Also, games have demos.  No, they don't give the ending to the story but neither do previews for books.    

The dlc and pre-ordering stuff occurs because they have a business to run.  There's always a business side to the creative industry.  Artists who don't make money starve.  Film studios, publishers, etc all have to make money to stay afloat.  Sadly, that is how the world works.  And the business side of things is not very different at all

I am not sure I understand your arguments, but give Bioware time.  See how they handle things and then base your opinion on that.   

Modifié par thebatmanreborn, 21 mars 2012 - 07:19 .


#743
FlyingCow371

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My main issues with the ending:

1. Shepard accepting that there are only 3 options, each of which goes against everything he's been working towards over the last three games, is way out of character and not even close to a satisfying ending. Shepard dying is fine, just should be for something that he'd believe in, which isn't included in the current 3 color choices.

2. The normandy, its retreat, and how people got up there.

2b. Earth. Lots of ships are stranded there (at best). The relay explosion thing seems to have ****ed up the normandy, causing it to crash. Since there's a relay inside the citadel, which presumably also will explode (since the kid said everything must go), there's going to be one of these huge, ship-crash-inducing explosions RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FLEET ABOVE EARTH. So, all those ships must crash on whatever planet must be nearby. Oh hey earth... the entire might of the galaxy's military assembled in one place seems like a lot; and some of those ships are pretty big. With all of them falling at the same time...a few things could happen.

All the ships crash hard, more or less destroying earth. All occupants could be killed in the crashes. Nice way for Shepard to thank this army for coming to help him. Very heroic.

Ships crash, destroying earth, but occupants of ships survive. Trapped on a planet without means to leave which lacks resources to sustain them. They fight, eat each other, die. Again, thanks for coming armies.

Ships control their landings a bit, occupants survive, earth not destroyed. Way too many being without enough resources to get off world, or enough fuel to get anybody home. Most die. Thanks for coming.

3. Closure. Where are my people, what happened to the krogans/turians/geth/quarians, etc. How badly does the relay explosion **** all of the galaxy's civilizations over, or did they all just blow up like what happened after Arrival?

Solutions:

1. Give a 4th (and possibly 5th, depending on how creative the writer people want to be) option. Let Shepard challenge the kid, let him walk away and not use the crucible. Or not use it how the kid wants. Tali or some science people talked about isolating a reaper signal, and sending some energy out to disable them. Ideally for my Shepard, he would want to destroy the Reapers WITHOUT harming the geth. Now if that's through using the crucible to harness dark energy and directing it at reapers, possibly by consulting with scientists from all the races at the same time in an awesome, really confusing conversation, great. If it's through just turning his back on the kid and going back down to watch his army see what they can do against the reapers, sure. If it's destroying the citadel to disrupt reaper coordination, great. Shepard can set a self destruct and flee, then live/die depending on something...the escape scenes at the end of ME2 were very epic and cool, more like that would be fun. Or he could blow it up while he's still there. He sends a brief message to his LI saying goodbye and BOOM, ignites a fire that inspires the rest of the military nearby to fight harder while disrupting reaper coordination, giving them the edge they need. Basically, there are SO MANY other ways you could go with the ending that are awesome, memorable, badass, tragic, and fit with the character of Shepard that everybody has spent years building up.

2. Not sure how to fix this. Normandy abandoning Shepard after all they've been through is really ****ed up. Shepard heard from Hackett, so communication is still good...if anything, Normandy would be fighting to get to the citadel and extract Shepard. Also, it seems like bioware really want the relays to explode, possibly for the future of their ME universe stories. They just need to use more space magic to show how exploded relays doesn't completely **** over everybody on earth and in the armies that came to save it. 'cause as it stands now, Take Back Earth was a complete failure...shepard raped earth pretty hard by destroying those relays and sending all those ships crashing into earth.

3. Closure is easy. At least for me. I don't really need fancy voice stuff, or visuals. I've played games before, a simple paragraph popup about a few different situations/encounters would be great. Baldur's Gate 2:ToB did it well, DA:O too. Planescape had a good epilogue. Y'all have done this stuff well before; not certain why you decided to not do that this time, especially since y'all explicitly mentioned how there would be closure this time.

#744
Jynx161

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He said everything he possible could. The complaints have been heard loud and clear and they have chosen to address them. He could have chosen to maintain his silence or simply defend the game as is, he would have been well within his rights to do either.
The best thing we can all do now is a take a break and let them do their work. Feel free to keep posting respectful and constructive criticism, but the hyperbole needs to be toned down. We've been heard.
This movement started out fairly respectful and truly wanted what we all felt was best for the series. The Child's Play donation drive is one of the best means of complaint I've ever seen. Let's all take a que from that: take the high road. Bioware made one of the greatest video game series of all time, they know their business and if we give them a chance I think they are going to do the right thing.
Hold the line with dignity, make Commander Shepard proud.

#745
geckosentme

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All Dead wrote...

geckosentme wrote...

Hi Dr. Muzyka,

First, you are absolutely right. Mass Effect 3, and the series as a whole, is a triumph. The accolades from reviewers and critics are well-deserved laurels for this series and team.

That said, the fundamental problem with the current ending as I see it, is not a lack of choice, or that "player choice" didn't figure more prominently into the end...I see all of ME3 as "the end" and my previous choices over ME1 & 2 did figure prominently in the events of the "ending"...

..the problem is that through out the ME series, renegade or paragon, Shepard has always fought for certain principles: significantly the value of diversity & the right of self-determination, and against strict utilitarianism.

This stands in stark contrast to the arguments of the Reapers who value "order" and see the diversity and right of self-determination that organics value as "chaos" that must be brought to "order" through extermination and "ascension" to some type of corporate "group entity."

Throughout the course of the 3 games, Shepard and her/his companions have repudiated these Reaper arguments both morally & by force of arms.

In the final sequence with the current ending the Star Child forces upon the player three decision, all of which violate one or more of the basic principles which have come to represent the subtext of the game. Choose "control" and Shepard concedes to the utilitarian arguments of the Illusive Man, choose "synthesis" and Shepard betrays her/his commitment to self-determination--as Shepard becomes the decider that all other species will be merged with synthetics her/his self and obliviates some level of diversity in the process as well. Choose "destroy" and Shepard again is forced to reject the value of diversity, wiping out both good and bad synthetics.

These are false choices and feel completely contrived. The reapers are malevolent and evil entities; no compromise with their values can be brooked. It matters less to me whether Shepard lives or dies, succeeds or fails in stopping the Reapers, but I do think that it's important that the character not be reduced to such an artificial choice that repudiates everything the character has previously stood and fought for for over 90+ hours of game play.

One ending is fine--Shepard dies next to Anderson, the Reapers win. It was an impossible fight, but lost with honor. As it stands now Shepard neither wins nor maintains his or her honor or convictions--and that feels very hollow and artificial.

I apologize for the lack of brevity but hope you made it to the end.

tldr; the current StarChild ending and the artificial & contrived choices (and even more contrived consequences) offered violate the basic message of the ME series and the character of Shepard her/himself.

That said, I loved the ME series and this final game. It is truly a wonder. I have merely chosen for future playthrus to turn of my console after the final touching scene between Shepard and Anderson that validates the characters and the message of the game rather than precede onward to the Star Child sequence.

I just wish I didn't have to do that.

Warmest Regards & Thanks for many hours of wonderful game play,

Steve T.


Great post. Please email that to them.


Would if I could.  Hopefully Dr. Muzyka will see it somehow.

Modifié par geckosentme, 21 mars 2012 - 07:20 .


#746
Capeo

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Chumasaurus wrote...

DEMIKLY wrote...

Chumasaurus wrote...

I'm seriously feeling like there is mass confusion over what Ray's blog post actually means. And here's what it really means: Nothing. He did not really confirm or deny anything, it's just more dismissive public relations nonsense meaning little in the way of us moving forward. In all honesty I don't think we will know for certain what's going to happen until PAX because Bioware/EA doesn't seem to actually want to talk to us like humans, they'd rather just hide behind the wall that is corporation and consumer roles.

A cynical view that ignores a lot of the definitive statements in the response.

There was a date (albeit a month) for reveal.
There was a definate response regarding endgame DLC.
There was a definate statement of intent - that other DLC and "New Full Games" are being made/developed in addition to this now DEFINATE endgame DLC
That conclusion DLC will "maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback" : the DLC is happening bro.. you just choose to be a bit of a bitter bob....

Smile BROS, this is a s*****load more than we had a day ago - smoke em' if you got em....:bandit::bandit:


I'm not really being all that bitter, but the only thing he really talks about in respect to future things happening is contained in this:

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.  This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.

That's really not promising anything or even specifying that they are in fact fixing the ending. I'll admit that maybe I am misunderstanding something here, but this does not read to me as: In April you get better ending! Which is what I am seeing a lot of people taking it as.




They clearly are not "fixing" the ending.  He spent most of the statement defending it.  We're going to get a motion comic or maybe some tacked on epilogues.  I don't think you'll see much more than that.  A total revamp of the ending sequence is not going to happen.  

#747
stysiaq

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So am I the only one who considers Muzyka's statement as an optimistic message?
After all he announced that the future material will give more closure/explanations.

The 'looky here, a completely new out of the blue godkid character is here to give you a brief intro and rgb choices' is still sucky (the worst artistic choice possible) but at least it will be explained.

We will know how EXACTLY space magic works guys!

#748
J717

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stysiaq wrote...

So am I the only one who considers Muzyka's statement as an optimistic message?
After all he announced that the future material will give more closure/explanations.

The 'looky here, a completely new out of the blue godkid character is here to give you a brief intro and rgb choices' is still sucky (the worst artistic choice possible) but at least it will be explained.

We will know how EXACTLY space magic works guys!


The point is, space magic shouldn't EXIST, PERIOD.

If you suffer terrible backlash and you need to EXPLAIN your artistic choice, then sorry, but...it wasn't artistic. It was a failure.

Also, if they're considering their game as art, there's no need to defend against destructive criticism; you think Ray would even be making a statement if all the criticism BioWare received were glowing rants and raves from its fanbase? Absolutely not.

This whole thing is nothing but a PR spin. I'm so done with BioWare until they actually SHOW ME SOMETHING....lest anyone forget the lies and deception that we were all spoonfed pre-release.

#749
CrazyCatDude

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I posted this in another thread, but they are directing discussion here, so :

This is directed to Ray Muzyka, Casey Hudson, Mike Gamble, Mac Walters and anyone else in a position to make creative decisions regarding the ME3 ending.

First, I want to be clear. You guys made a fantastic game, and a fantastic sequel to two other fantastic games. The improvement in game play quality as you go from Mass Effect, to Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 3 is simply amazing.

Second, the writing in all three games is easily the best I've ever seen in video games, and better than a lot of writing in almost any media you care to name. ME3, particularly, is exceptionally well written.

Third, what's going on right now, wouldn't be happening if fans didn't care so passionately about the games, the characters and the setting you've created.

Put another way, we love everything you guys have done so much, that when it breaks down in the last five or ten minutes of an experience that has, at a mininute, lasted 50 hours, and for some of us (including myself) given us *thousands* of hours of enjoyment, not just from the games, but from other, associated media, that we were left upset, confused, frustrated, and in many cases hurt.

The thing is, most of us still love your games, or at the very least, we want to be able to love your games *again*, even if we can't find it in ourselves to love them right now.

Then you start talking about "maintaining the artistic integrity of the game." I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but I am going to speak for myself, because no one else will.

I'm an artist. Specifically, I'm a writer. As an artist, as a writer, when I look at the ME series as a whole, I can't help but feel that you've already broken the artistic integrity of the series. You guys are blazing a new trail here. You're creating something with your games that hasn't really existed before. You're creating a piece of art where the viewer of that art has unprecidented agency in the creation of that artwork's final form, where no two people will ever experience the artwork in the same way, and where no two viewings of the art will ever be exactly the same. You've spent anywhere from tens to hundreds of hours building an expectation with the audience for your art, that the viewer of your art would, at the conclusion of the piece, have agency in determining the final state of that art.

But you violate that expectation. That's why I'm upset. That's why I don't like the ending of the game.

If you spend anywhere from fifty to several hundred hours experiencing a story in which your character is working towards saving the galaxy from destruction, working towards the chance to settle down and have a life with the person he or she cares about, and achieve victory against impossible odds, it's a violation of the agreement you, as an artist, have with the viewer, the audience of your art, to meet the expectations you yourself have set forward in the work. If the ending of your work fails to follow the rules present within the body of the work, that is a similar violation of the agreement between artist and audience.

You can talk about "maintaining the artistic integrity of the game" all you like, but the problem is, you have already violated that integrity, not by delivering a disappointing ending, but by delivering an ending that fails to meet the promises that were made *within* the narrative of the game.

We, as the audience, spend three games as Shepard fighting to preserve galactic society, but at the end, every single option we are given requires the destruction of that society. We, as the audience, spend three games as Shepard, fighting to preserve the freedom and free will of the galaxy, yet the supposed *best* ending, the one that is the most difficult to get, involves robbing all life in the galaxy of the freedom to chose whether or not they remain as they are, or became partially synthetic. We, as the audience, spend three games as Shepard, being told that each Repear is "a nation, indepentant, free of all weakness," only to be told in the last five minutes that they're the playthings of an entirely new character, who's actions make no sense within the story, and who's motivations are *demonstribly false* within the narrative of the story, and yet, we, as Shepard, are given no opportunity to point out the errors in his thinking, and are forced to except one of three options which, as I pointed out before, involve the destruction of the very society we have been fighting to save.

I'm not upset because I didn't get the ending promised in some random interview. I'm not upset because the ending isn't exactly how I pictured it. I'm upset because the ending does not deliver on the promises made *within the narrative* and is not consistant with the rules established *within the narrative*.

I'll restate this one more time, just so I'm perfectly clear. If mass effect were a novel, and Shepard and Liara started talking about a future with marriage, old age, and lots of little blue children, it would be perfectly exceptable to use that as a way to emphisise the tragedy of Shepard's death. However, in a game where Shepard can, simply by making the right choices, rescue his/her entire crew from certain death, and bring his/her entire crew through a suicide mission, you, as an artist, are making a promise that, with the right decisions, Shepard can have that future. And in a novel, it would be perfectly acceptable to have the Reapers simply fail to destroy all advanced civilizations, but in a game where, through making the wrong decisions, Shepard can get his entire crew killed, you as the artist have made a promise that there will be an ending where, if all the wrong decisions are made, the Reapers win. Both of these promises, along with many others, go unfulfilled in the ending of the game. That's why I'm upset.

And the thing is, I know you can do better, because right up until the elevator carries Shepard up to the Crucible, you were fulfilling nearly ever promise the narrative made.

So, please, if you care about your fans, if you really do care about artistic integrity of the game, restore it. Fix the ending, so that it fulfills the promises made within the narrative.

Sincerely, someone who loves Mass Effect.

#750
Chumasaurus

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Capeo wrote...

Chumasaurus wrote...

DEMIKLY wrote...

Chumasaurus wrote...

I'm seriously feeling like there is mass confusion over what Ray's blog post actually means. And here's what it really means: Nothing. He did not really confirm or deny anything, it's just more dismissive public relations nonsense meaning little in the way of us moving forward. In all honesty I don't think we will know for certain what's going to happen until PAX because Bioware/EA doesn't seem to actually want to talk to us like humans, they'd rather just hide behind the wall that is corporation and consumer roles.

A cynical view that ignores a lot of the definitive statements in the response.

There was a date (albeit a month) for reveal.
There was a definate response regarding endgame DLC.
There was a definate statement of intent - that other DLC and "New Full Games" are being made/developed in addition to this now DEFINATE endgame DLC
That conclusion DLC will "maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback" : the DLC is happening bro.. you just choose to be a bit of a bitter bob....

Smile BROS, this is a s*****load more than we had a day ago - smoke em' if you got em....:bandit::bandit:


I'm not really being all that bitter, but the only thing he really talks about in respect to future things happening is contained in this:

Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.  This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.

That's really not promising anything or even specifying that they are in fact fixing the ending. I'll admit that maybe I am misunderstanding something here, but this does not read to me as: In April you get better ending! Which is what I am seeing a lot of people taking it as.




They clearly are not "fixing" the ending.  He spent most of the statement defending it.  We're going to get a motion comic or maybe some tacked on epilogues.  I don't think you'll see much more than that.  A total revamp of the ending sequence is not going to happen.  


And that's what I am saying. I am seeing a lot of people on these threads take this post as the "end all" and "promise" that we are getting new endings and that's simply not the case.