883 réponses à ce sujet

[Fulgrim88]

geckosentme wrote...

All Dead wrote...

geckosentme wrote...

Hi Dr. Muzyka,

First,
you are absolutely right. Mass Effect 3, and the series as a whole, is
a triumph. The accolades from reviewers and critics are well-deserved
laurels for this series and team.

That said, the fundamental
problem with the current ending as I see it, is not a lack of choice, or
that "player choice" didn't figure more prominently into the end...I
see all of ME3 as "the end" and my previous choices over ME1 & 2 did
figure prominently in the events of the "ending"...

..the
problem is that through out the ME series, renegade or paragon, Shepard
has always fought for certain principles: significantly the value of
diversity & the right of self-determination, and against strict
utilitarianism.

This stands in stark contrast to the arguments of
the Reapers who value "order" and see the diversity and right of
self-determination that organics value as "chaos" that must be brought
to "order" through extermination and "ascension" to some type of
corporate "group entity."

Throughout the course of the 3 games,
Shepard and her/his companions have repudiated these Reaper arguments
both morally & by force of arms.

In the final sequence with
the current ending the Star Child forces upon the player three decision,
all of which violate one or more of the basic principles which have
come to represent the subtext of the game. Choose "control" and Shepard
concedes to the utilitarian arguments of the Illusive Man, choose
"synthesis" and Shepard betrays her/his commitment to
self-determination--as Shepard becomes the decider that all other
species will be merged with synthetics her/his self and obliviates some
level of diversity in the process as well. Choose "destroy" and Shepard
again is forced to reject the value of diversity, wiping out both good
and bad synthetics.

These are false choices and feel completely
contrived. The reapers are malevolent and evil entities; no compromise
with their values can be brooked. It matters less to me whether Shepard
lives or dies, succeeds or fails in stopping the Reapers, but I do
think that it's important that the character not be reduced to such an
artificial choice that repudiates everything the character has
previously stood and fought for for over 90+ hours of game play.

One
ending is fine--Shepard dies next to Anderson, the Reapers win. It was
an impossible fight, but lost with honor. As it stands now Shepard
neither wins nor maintains his or her honor or convictions--and that
feels very hollow and artificial.

I apologize for the lack of brevity but hope you made it to the end.

tldr;
the current StarChild ending and the artificial & contrived
choices (and even more contrived consequences) offered violate the basic
message of the ME series and the character of Shepard her/himself.

That
said, I loved the ME series and this final game. It is truly a wonder.
I have merely chosen for future playthrus to turn of my console after
the final touching scene between Shepard and Anderson that validates the
characters and the message of the game rather than precede onward to
the Star Child sequence.

I just wish I didn't have to do that.

Warmest Regards & Thanks for many hours of wonderful game play,

Steve T.

Great post. Please email that to them.

Would if I could.  Hopefully Dr. Muzyka will see it somehow.

Very unlikely.

Please, write a letter if you must. It's too good to be ignored.

Because Dr. Rays announcement gives me the vibe that it's being ignored right now.
They need to get it into their heads that it's not just about closure or blue babies, it's about staying true to the message of their series. We can't stand for 5 years of hope & diversity ending on a note of "Life sucks, then you die"

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 21 mars 2012 - 07:39 .

[jon0945]

Somewhat promising, I do want to be able to trust Bioware again but I'll hold of on opening the champage until I see the finished product.

[Jetfire99]

Yes the whole thing smells of PR Damage control to me. Very polite however for the most part but still damage control none the less.

[geckosentme]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

geckosentme wrote...

Would if I could.  Hopefully Dr. Muzyka will see it somehow.

Very unlikely.

Please, write a letter if you must. It's too good to be ignored.

Because Dr. Rays announcement gives me the vibe that it's being ignored right now.
They need to get it into their heads that it's not just about closure or blue babies, it's about staying true to the message of their series. We can't stand for 5 years of hope & diversity ending on a note of "Life sucks, then you die"

Ok I will.  Feel free to cut & paste & do the same.

I think the Retake movement is going to wind up getting nothing by asking too much.  There needs to be a focus, a specific doable request.  They are not going to DLC a whole new ending.  I would rather we could focus on getting this final sequence cut from the game as the #1 priority.  Cutting the StarChild sequence is easy and leaves the game very open to interpretation as to what happened next.  It requires little new development.  That's a dlc patch that could be free and could be done in a very short time, eliminates the gaping plot holes that the StarChild created, etc.

It's not a perfect ending, maybe it's not what people wanted, but I think that's the best that can be done.  The effort could be best spent on appealing to BW to end the game 5 min earlier and cut the StarChild seqence.

[Gaddmeister]

geckosentme wrote...
Cutting the StarChild sequence is easy and leaves the game very open to interpretation as to what happened next.  It requires little new development.  That's a dlc patch that could be free and could be done in a very short time, eliminates the gaping plot holes that the StarChild created, etc.

It's not a perfect ending, maybe it's not what people wanted, but I think that's the best that can be done.  The effort could be best spent on appealing to BW to end the game 5 min earlier and cut the StarChild seqence.

I see what you're saying, but on the other hand.. we know what happened next... the star child. I know that might sound stupid, but I'm not trying to make a joke or mock you or anything. It's just that if they just remove something and try to patch it together without it only players who never played the game before will have an ending open to interpretation. It's hard to avoid the fact that the kid was there. To me the damage is done and I 'd rather they try to explain it as best as they can. Because I genuinely hope they have a good explanation.

edit: also, I tip my hat to Bioware for responding, regardless of what the outcome will be of all of this. Thanks!

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 21 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[jspiess]

OchreJelly wrote...

Kilshrek wrote...

I don't know.

I would really love to agree with Dr Muzyka here, but at the same time, I'm bitterly dissatisfied by what appears to be the conclusion to my 5 year journey.

Dear Dr Muzyka, you may or may not ever read this, but I will put this opinion of mine on these forums in the hope that someone on the team may see it, and if they see fit, to forward it to you, it is as much a reply to your reply, as it is to the team themselves.

I'll list the very basic points that have so disappointed me, and hopefully someone will see some sense in this :

Introducing a new character at the death. I don't know if there's a trope for this, but Harbinger was touted for the whole of ME 2 to be the main antagonist. In ME 3 there never was one, merely the Reapers, and to a degree, Cerberus. Switching antagonists at the end, from TIM, to the sudden appearance of God Child, who gives Shepard 3 choices they can't refuse, where is the choice? What does this do to reflect all that I've done, all that I've sacrificed? To have all my efforts ignored, such as performing all the C-Sec tasks, only to find out that the Citadel gets captured by the Reapers anyway, to listening stupidly to a damn AI proselytise about concepts which I had not 10 hours ago disproved in a big way, well tell me that isn't a slap in the face from the story. It's telling me, no, player, you're stupid, listen to me, I know what's what. My choices are, self sacrifice to control the Reapers, who were meant to be more like Geth, individual, with no leader; merge everything into organic-synthetic hybrids; or genocide of the Geth, whom I had just given a new lease on life.

If that's how the story ends then it reflected none of my choices, it took into account nothing I had done before, and most importantly, it railroads me into 3 choices I equally abhor. It is unacceptable, please, Dr Muzyka, realise this.

Even disregarding all the dev promises that were made along the way, it is not possible to not realise that Mass Effect was always about choice. What choices you made always came back to haunt or help you, and I believe the finest example of this was with Conrad Verner and Jenna on the Citadel. If you helped these two individuals, who had nothing to do with each other in ME 1, they would return to help you in ME 3, in a single event. That was a very nice nod to what we'd done before. Sadly, the final minutes of the game simply do not live up to this at all, to have everything stripped away, and then have three choices that have nothing to do with the game prior to this, I find it mind boggling that they should have ever made it into the final game.

Moving on to the art argument, I fully respect that games are art, but they are also art made on the feedback from the customer, us, and to say that the artist has full control over their art is a nice sentiment, but one I disagree with. We have worked with Bioware over the last 5 years to create the fine story that Mass Effect has now, we too have a small stake in the story, and should we not have a small say in how it ends? It is the most disappointing end to a game I have ever experienced, simply because I have never played a game over 5 years. 5 years Dr Muzyka, and hundreds of hours poured into the game that Bioware started, but we the players helped to create. The team may have their vision, but I respectfully say that vision was too narrow. It simply focused too closely on what Mr Hudson declares as "bittersweet", but if I were asked to provide examples of bittersweet endings, I would never consider ME 3's ending to be among such things. I would point to a famous literary example for a bittersweet ending, The Lord Of The Rings :

In the books, after Sauron is vanquished and Middle Earth is rescued from the threat of darkness, the land lay in ruin, worthy souls and loved ones were lost, but we knew that there was victory. Much that was destroyed could be rebuilt, lives that were lost could be celebrated. The four hobbits return to the Shire, where they find that Saruman had enslaved their people and destroyed their homes with industry, but the four friends had learned much on their travels, and defeated Saruman. The Shire was nearly destroyed however, but Samwise had gifts from Galadriel that could heal those wounds. Frodo's wound would never heal however, and he finally departed to the West with Gandalf and Bilbo. Thus the Fellowship was truly broken, but not before their purpose was done. And note that none of the main characters, beyond Boromir, really died.

The movies were not too different in the bittersweet ending, except that scenes were cut and straight lines were made between two points which may have taken longer to get to, Frodo still leaves with Gandalf and Bilbo, and the parting does well to capture the bittersweet moment. Dear friends must be forever parted, because some wounds will never truly heal.

I only felt absolute despair as Shepard was forced to make 3 choices that made no sense to the character, and despair as it felt that all my work was undone at the whim of a child like entity. To add to the insult was the scene with the Normandy escaping the explosion of the Catalyst, to what purpose? Why did the people I bring down to Earth abandon me in my time of need? Would my squad really abandon me in the final push to the beam? I cannot understand why they were not with me at the end. It makes no sense Dr Muzyka, and I wish you could see it from my perspective. If someone on the team would care to answer that question, and provide me with an answer as to why this was the case I could do my best to see it the way they see it.

I have said as much as I can without addressing the pre-release promises, which should be another issue altogether.

Regards,

Kilshrek
A very disappointed Mass Effect fan

Agreed, 100%.

To use the example of the LoTR movies again, the series missteps numerous times but despite that the films are held in very high regard overall, especially by fans. The vast majority love ME3 sans endings, and it's easy to forget that in light of the criticisms.

There will *always* be contrarians about some things, regardless of whether a game or movie is good or bad. Generally those are filtered out and not factored into the overall perception of a piece of entertainment.

It would be nice to have that same standard applied to those who feel the ending is out of place for a series like Mass Effect, that the worst and most trivial complaints don't represent the whole.

[Fulgrim88]

geckosentme wrote...

Ok I will.  Feel free to cut & paste & do the same.

I think the Retake movement is going to wind up getting nothing by asking too much.  There needs to be a focus, a specific doable request.  They are not going to DLC a whole new ending.  I would rather we could focus on getting this final sequence cut from the game as the #1 priority.  Cutting the StarChild sequence is easy and leaves the game very open to interpretation as to what happened next.  It requires little new development.  That's a dlc patch that could be free and could be done in a very short time, eliminates the gaping plot holes that the StarChild created, etc.

It's not a perfect ending, maybe it's not what people wanted, but I think that's the best that can be done.  The effort could be best spent on appealing to BW to end the game 5 min earlier and cut the StarChild seqence.

Problem with taking out the Star Child altogether, would be that people who liked the current ending could rightfully feel betrayed in turn.

I hate that brat as much as everyone else, and cutting him out altogether makes for a surprisingly satisfying ending all by itself, but he's probably here to stay.

Regardless, they need to know why there must be more options than to abide by his evil logic.
Which is why I'll probably send them your text, or something along the same lines as well. It'll take ages from Germany to Canada, but oh well...

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 21 mars 2012 - 07:57 .

[Versus Omnibus]

At least we'll get some answers. I won't believe they actually do plan to fix the endings until I hear them say it, but until then...

[Mara Shep]

(Ok, so I just saw the statement via twitter and have rushed on here (I was having a bad day, this is the only thing that got me out of bed).

I'm still trying to process this. The optimistic me thinks "HECK YES, WE MADE WAVES," but the cynical me thinks "but do they REALLY understand what we mean by "shoddy ending?"

It's all a bit much to process right now, but at least a statement has been made, and has bolstered my Holding-The-Line-ness.

[spz123]

The statement neither confirms nor dispels anything. So those pretending it does, I suggest you look again. The only thing confirmed is there should b something concrete in April.

Modifié par spz123, 21 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[geckosentme]

Gaddmeister wrote...

geckosentme wrote...
Cutting the StarChild sequence is easy and leaves the game very open to interpretation as to what happened next.  It requires little new development.  That's a dlc patch that could be free and could be done in a very short time, eliminates the gaping plot holes that the StarChild created, etc.

It's not a perfect ending, maybe it's not what people wanted, but I think that's the best that can be done.  The effort could be best spent on appealing to BW to end the game 5 min earlier and cut the StarChild seqence.

I see what you're saying, but on the other hand.. we know what happened next... teh star child. I know that might sound stupid, but I'm not trying to make a joke or mock you or anything. It's just that if they just remove something and try to patch it together without it only players who never played the game before will have an ending open to interpretation. It's hard to avoid the fact that the kid was there. To me the damage is done and I 'd rather they try to explain it as best as they can. Because I genuinly hope they have a good explanation.

? Don't understand how you're thinking about it.

There is no explanation.  This was essentially an attempt to appeal to fans who insisted that the Reaper's motivations be explained.  However the Reapers are simply a plot / narrative device an implacable enemy with a horrific goal.

Removal of the final sequence never answers the goal of the Reapers question, and may leave Shep's victory/death ambiguous but Shepards character and the overall subtext of the narrative (diversity, self-determination != chaos && diversity, self-determination > order) remains more intact.

[KarstenKlausen]

A) Getting a reply from Bioware top dog is a huge pat on the back for the "Retake" movement. There is now absolute certainty that the protests have been heard and accepted at the highest level.

Give a guy some credit for navigating difficult waters. While having to acknowledge the almost universal outcry against the endings, Dr. Myzuka also has to cover the backs of his employees. If y'all were expecting him to come out and say "Y'know, I kinda hated the endings too, so I fired Mac Walters and we're working on a new ending"... well, then let's just say your chances of success weren't too great to begin with.

C) Don't relent in your pressure, but remember to switch focus from "We hate the ending" to "We hate the ending BECAUSE...." so they know what to fix. No-one, least of all Bioware, wants to release a botch job now that the boss has gone on record saying they'll address it.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

The road ahead is still rocky, but it's looking a little better now.

[Leem_0001]

The feedback is incredibly painful?

Try sitting through the ending you gave us. Maybe we are about even.

[Gaddmeister]

geckosentme wrote...

Gaddmeister wrote...

geckosentme wrote...
Cutting the StarChild sequence is easy and leaves the game very open to interpretation as to what happened next.  It requires little new development.  That's a dlc patch that could be free and could be done in a very short time, eliminates the gaping plot holes that the StarChild created, etc.

It's not a perfect ending, maybe it's not what people wanted, but I think that's the best that can be done.  The effort could be best spent on appealing to BW to end the game 5 min earlier and cut the StarChild seqence.

I see what you're saying, but on the other hand.. we know what happened next... teh star child. I know that might sound stupid, but I'm not trying to make a joke or mock you or anything. It's just that if they just remove something and try to patch it together without it only players who never played the game before will have an ending open to interpretation. It's hard to avoid the fact that the kid was there. To me the damage is done and I 'd rather they try to explain it as best as they can. Because I genuinly hope they have a good explanation.

? Don't understand how you're thinking about it.

There is no explanation.  This was essentially an attempt to appeal to fans who insisted that the Reaper's motivations be explained.  However the Reapers are simply a plot / narrative device an implacable enemy with a horrific goal.

Removal of the final sequence never answers the goal of the Reapers question, and may leave Shep's victory/death ambiguous but Shepards character and the overall subtext of the narrative (diversity, self-determination != chaos && diversity, self-determination > order) remains more intact.

The way I'm thinking is even if they would remove the star child I would interpret it as being there, since it was from the beginning. Unless they replaced it with something else. But maybe that's just me.

[geckosentme]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

geckosentme wrote...

Ok I will.  Feel free to cut & paste & do the same.

I think the Retake movement is going to wind up getting nothing by asking too much.  There needs to be a focus, a specific doable request.  They are not going to DLC a whole new ending.  I would rather we could focus on getting this final sequence cut from the game as the #1 priority.  Cutting the StarChild sequence is easy and leaves the game very open to interpretation as to what happened next.  It requires little new development.  That's a dlc patch that could be free and could be done in a very short time, eliminates the gaping plot holes that the StarChild created, etc.

It's not a perfect ending, maybe it's not what people wanted, but I think that's the best that can be done.  The effort could be best spent on appealing to BW to end the game 5 min earlier and cut the StarChild seqence.

Problem with taking out the Star Child altogether, would be that people who liked the current ending could rightfully feel betrayed in turn.

Point taken.  Like I said, I'm no longer holding the line as it were...just resolved to play the game up to the point I believe is the natural ending (Shepard & Anderson's convo) and then call it a Reaper victory and move on.  Same thing with anything you don't like in ME -- don't like how every conversation with Jacob turns flirty for femshep?  Don't talk with the guy.  End of story.

Obviously, any ending is going to leave some unsatisfied and there were so many great moments throughout this last game and the whole series that I don't think the ending can ruin it.

In the words of Jacob Taylor:

"It's all Bull****, Shepard but I guess Bioware did a good enough job, not even they could screw up what they created."

[RukiaKuchki]

Hopefully now some people will be a bit more respectful to Bioware. Some of the things I have read have made me cringe - they are just mean spirited and shameful and to be frank, these people do not deserve a response from Bioware. Writing seriously offensive posts on Twitter to all those involved in the game, comments on forums along the line of 'FU Bioware', 'I will never buy your products again, and I will tell all my friends not to either', 'I will burn all your stuff', 'You have ruined my life', 'You have ruined all the games for me', 'You are talentless hacks', 'A girl committed suicide the day after finishing ME3' are just ridiculous. And to be honest, this spamming of all ME-related content all over the internet is becoming tedious. Bioware took a gamble with the ending of the game, and unfortunately the gamble didn't work this time. They are obviously shocked by the reaction of some of their most passionate fans, but they have listened and they have responded, and they are taking action. That deserves a lot of respect because there are people at Bioware whose (artistic) pride has been seriously hurt, and the first reaction by a lot of artists to this type of criticism is to ignore it. So perhaps now it is time to wipe the slate clean, let the rage subside, and really appreciate the monumental achievement the Mass Effect series is. More content is coming, let's get excited about that.

[JeffZero]

Stay civil but keep sending in those N7 patches. Just don't stop reminding the folks up there in Edmonton that you mean business -- quite literally so, in fact.

[JeffZero]

KarstenKlausen wrote...

A) Getting a reply from Bioware top dog is a huge pat on the back for the "Retake" movement. There is now absolute certainty that the protests have been heard and accepted at the highest level.

Give a guy some credit for navigating difficult waters. While having to acknowledge the almost universal outcry against the endings, Dr. Myzuka also has to cover the backs of his employees. If y'all were expecting him to come out and say "Y'know, I kinda hated the endings too, so I fired Mac Walters and we're working on a new ending"... well, then let's just say your chances of success weren't too great to begin with.

C) Don't relent in your pressure, but remember to switch focus from "We hate the ending" to "We hate the ending BECAUSE...." so they know what to fix. No-one, least of all Bioware, wants to release a botch job now that the boss has gone on record saying they'll address it.

Excellent post.

[Jenrais]

Ill wait untill April to see what new Space magic they make up

Hold the line

[snajones]

That "apology" was almost as big of a slap in the face as the ending was.

BioWare will only listen to "nice" feedback? They are "artists"? Gaming magazine reviews are awesome, so the fans are obviously delusional?

Do they understand the concept of Capitalism? They are really working hard to alienate me as a fan.

[Gigerstreak]

Even if they didn't plan it, I think they should take the indoctrination theory and run with it.

[Almostfaceman]

MJF JD wrote...

well that kind of pokes at there being a plan all along for a special dlc ending.

This is clearly a reaction to what's happening and not something that's been planned all along.

[UndeadTRex]

I really want this to be the start of changing the ending. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Almostfaceman]

snajones wrote...

That "apology" was almost as big of a slap in the face as the ending was.

BioWare will only listen to "nice" feedback? They are "artists"? Gaming magazine reviews are awesome, so the fans are obviously delusional?

Do they understand the concept of Capitalism? They are really working hard to alienate me as a fan.

Not nice feedback, constructive. On the whole, our feedback has been constructive. For the majority of us, it is NOT a slap in the face. He's basicly speaking to the trolls, then he's also trying to save sales by appealing to folks who haven't played the game yet to give it a chance. There's nothing wrong with him asking that.