883 réponses à ce sujet

[Dessalines]

I am going to make one last after this one, and jump on my horse like Bart from Blazing Saddles.
I will back in April if there is no news.

[Glitch007]

Also critic reviews, (unless not mainstream like Yatzee or Angry Joe) have to give decent scores or loose access to their copies to review ahead of release, people like Yatzee get them after, so give a more open, if subjective opinion. Let me ask you this when is a triple A title NOT 98 odd percent or a 9 or 10?

Anyone with ANY sense takes reviews from places like Game Trailers or IGN or Game Mags with a pinch of salt. And Zero Punctuation is SO honest/critical, (Yatzee's shtick) that his comments often make you notice the flaws you wouldn't normally, so should be watched after or again taken with a pinch of salt.

So saying ANYTHING, (Games, Movies, etc...) is critically acclaimed is tainted with their lack of real opinion and is really just fancy words to slap all over advertising.

At the end of the day you can get great reviews from critics, but ultimately the people PAYING for the games are those that matter, if everyone online or friends are saying give it a miss IGN can call it the best game ever it still isn't going to matter all that much when no $$$ is rolling in.

While not necessarily ME3's case, with 3.5 million sales on first few days developers need to not focus on "critics"/reviewers, (seriously they still consider them critics? When ARE they critical?) and to the internet/fan base or more importantly their bottom line.

[Mavaras]

Modifié par Mavaras, 22 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[Mavaras]

Modifié par Mavaras, 22 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[MakeMineMako]

It's PR spin. Nothing more, nothing less.

Translation: We stick by our nonsensical endings. We will "clarify" and "explain" to the morons who don't understand "art".

"Destructive" criticism isn't necessarily flaming or threats. It could also be interpreted as 'things that contradict our "artistic" vision'

I'm not holding my breath, since it appears they still don't get it. I hope I'm proven wrong. But I have my doubts.

In any case, it was nice to hear SOMETHING official at this point in time.

[RukiaKuchki]

Porfirmir wrote...

RukiaKuchki wrote...
That deserves a lot of respect because there are people at Bioware whose (artistic) pride has been seriously hurt, and the first reaction by a lot of artists to this type of criticism is to ignore it.

I'm no professional artist, but I have dabbled in graphic arts and consider myself an artist after a fashion.  To create art is to invite critique; simply listening to "constructive criticism" and ignoring everything else will not help you improve as an artist.

The most recent Forbes article in response to Dr. Muzyka's statement makes an eloquent argument against the "this is art" defense.  Just because it is art doesn't mean its merits are unassailable. 

You, and a lot of people, seem to be missing the point. Note that 'artistic' was in brackets. Discussing whether or not you consider this game to be art is irrelevant, but we'll go with it for sake of argument. If you are an artist as you claim to be be, you might have experienced a time when you have poured your heart and soul into something, and when you unleashed it to your audience with immense pride, you were unprepared for the response. In the best case scenario, you might be expecting universal praise, everyone telling you what a talent you are. Alternatively, you might expect an interesting critique, a discussion maybe of what could have been if you'd done it better or approached it differently, perhaps listened more to what your audience or client wanted. What you wouldn't expect would be a ton of personal abuse, people telling you that because of this mis-step, you are a pathetic example of an artist, that you should be fired and no one should buy your work...in fact, if anyone has your work, they should sell it and tell everyone else not to buy it either so that you face financial ruin. You would also not expect people to leave hundreds of unpleasant messages on every social media hub remotely connected to your art. The chances are, at least in the begining, you may not want to believe that people who have been so supportive of you in the past can be so fickle and hate you and your work with a passion. You may choose to believe that it is those who 'unfairly' criticise you that are wrong because you were absolutely convinced that the work you did was so good. That is the pride. Everyone has it. Unless of course you are one of those people who has never done anything in their life to be proud of.

Nothing is beyond criticism - games included - it just needs to be done with a degree of decency otherwise your point is lost. People need to stop pouring over (and misinterpreting) every detail of these blog posts and creating new issues when there aren't any. Bioware are not the 'Big Bad', they are a company like any other creating a product that they need to sell. They made a mistake. They are paying the price for that mistake by having their reputation soiled by a loud but very passionate minority who are not happy with their product (yes, 99% of the people who post on these forums may hate it, but they form a small proportion of the millions who have purchased this game). It's time to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt. In other words, it's time to be positive.

[GOODKyle]

My reply to Ray's blog post since apparently a mod decided to delete my long worded post

[DemGeth]

laughing at the all rabble rabble rabble in this thread.

[thebatmanreborn]

Glitch007 wrote...

Also critic reviews, (unless not mainstream like Yatzee or Angry Joe) have to give decent scores or loose access to their copies to review ahead of release, people like Yatzee get them after, so give a more open, if subjective opinion. Let me ask you this when is a triple A title NOT 98 odd percent or a 9 or 10?

Anyone with ANY sense takes reviews from places like Game Trailers or IGN or Game Mags with a pinch of salt. And Zero Punctuation is SO honest/critical, (Yatzee's shtick) that his comments often make you notice the flaws you wouldn't normally, so should be watched after or again taken with a pinch of salt.

So saying ANYTHING, (Games, Movies, etc...) is critically acclaimed is tainted with their lack of real opinion and is really just fancy words to slap all over advertising.

At the end of the day you can get great reviews from critics, but ultimately the people PAYING for the games are those that matter, if everyone online or friends are saying give it a miss IGN can call it the best game ever it still isn't going to matter all that much when no $$$ is rolling in.

While not necessarily ME3's case, with 3.5 million sales on first few days developers need to not focus on "critics"/reviewers, (seriously they still consider them critics? When ARE they critical?) and to the internet/fan base or more importantly their bottom line.

Ninja Gaiden 3 just got a 3.5 from IGN and a 6 from Game Informer.  That's a major game series; supposedly a AAA title (or used to be).  No, game companies need game magazines to review/preview their games.

Game magazines, like Game Informer, are the easiest way for game companies to advertise their game and get news out there that their game exists. If they don't allow early copies for game reviews then they shoot themselves in the foot.  From my experience, I have never worked with a magazine or newspaper that was ordered to give games a certain score.  Ever.  

Magazines make money off of advertising and subscriptions.  To say game reviews are paid off; what about film, play, music, and book reviews?  Reviews may sound biased at times but this is not because of shady, under the table payments.  The critic is a human being and humans are flawed.  We sometimes let our personal bias leak into our work.  

That's the line between critic and journalist.  The journalist cannot allow his opinion to come across in his work unless it is strictly an opinion piece. The critic can.  I feel this line is blurred a bit in the gaming industry.  You can function as a critic in the realm of reviews, but covering news, writing features, and conducting interviews are journalist roles.  But that is a moot point I suppose.  

Mass Effect 3 definitely deserved a 9.5-9.8 score.  The ending aside, the game was fantastic.  Yes, there were some bugs and it wasn't perfect, but it came close in my book.  

Modifié par thebatmanreborn, 22 mars 2012 - 12:56 .

[silvrdark]

H. Birdman wrote...

This is reasonable on Bioware's part. The debate now shifts from "whether we fix it" to "how we fix it." Thus, we need to shift our tactics from anything that might be perceived as "anti-Bioware" to a strong "pro-awesome ending" movement.

In short, we have held the line. Now it's time to mobilize the fleet, and move forward with a campaign to encourage Bioware to "clarify" the ending with some well-written, engaging content that makes sense in the larger universe. Give them cover to do something outstanding without fear they will "look like wimps" as some have put it.

^This.  Stay positive, but be insistent.  Be vocal, but constructive.  This won't work if we let it shatter our unity or dilute our interest.  Keep pushing.  Keep donating. Be heard. Hold the line.

[legbamel]

If they ask for our input (constructive, not just "that sucked, you bastards! I'm taking my marbles and going home!) then why don't they give us a way to send links to posts or have a carefully-curated thread here? I know many fans have written their own opinions in detail but who knows if the team sees people honestly trying to help in the sea of furious screaming? The idea of trying to wade through a Google alert on "Mass Effect 3 ending" is terrifying.

[Torrible]

Edit: Never mind

Modifié par Torrible, 22 mars 2012 - 01:42 .

[liggy002]

I apologize to Bioware if I have come off as destructive in any way. That was not my intention if I did. That said, I do disagree with his assesment that the ending is a good ending. I don't think it does the series justice and that is just my opinion. It is good, however, that Ray and Bioware are willing to listen to their fans. That is always a great thing. I look forward to what they have to say in April.

[NotCras]

I cant believe that Dr Muzyka, co-founder of Bioware actually commented in our favor... My thoughts here: http://toomuchbrainf...done-right.html

Please read them!!

[Storin]

count_4 wrote...

What he basically says is: The ending was intended as is, everybody loves it but some of the most passionate fans are a little angry. He thinks it is awesome. They'll answer some questions in April.

With this blog post I lost every respect for BioWare I had left. :/

I'm inclined to agree. The fact that they shipped the game with those endings, and apparently think they're fine, is mind-boggling. I have to say I'm also not amused by the pleas for positiveness when Bioware and the handful of those who like the endings basically take the line that the game is art which the rest of us simply don't understand. The arrogance is insulting.

Modifié par Storin, 22 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[mythlover20]

That message is just PR spin-talk. He says nothing constructive to give the fans any idea as to whether Bioware is going to do anything about it.

He is most definitely not admitting that they made a mistake. Trying to defend that ending by using the phrase "artistic integrity" is really just an insult to artists. True artists would not have produced something like the god-child in a universe that has no room nor need for it.

Basic principal for writers: if you set up a universe you follow that universe's rules. A fictional work needs to make sense for it to have the philosophical impact the artist desires, even if it only makes sense according to the rules of said fictional universe. Ever writer knows this INSTICTUALLY. If this were a book or a film, it would never have seen production, let alone release.

It may have been difficult to create a series of endings to make sense to every headcanon Shepard. I am not by any means saying that it wouldn't have been. Yet only three options that don't depend on player decisions and storylines is not a) what we were promised and going to make any sense for most people. And I say most people because those I have come across who aren't all that bothered are those who still view this industry as one that JUST MAKES GAMES and do not think of this as a potential work of art. If you wish to be treated seriously as an art form, then you are going to need to start ACTING like an art form. To do so means you will have to produce WHOLELY COMPLETE works that make sense within it's own universe as well as provide philosophical, political and social commentary. Until then "artistic integrity" does not come in to it.

The ending breaks the most basic rule of fictional writing (as stated above). Dr. Muzyka is dening that happened, and refering to those whom have called them out as dissentients, and disregarding their very valid opinions. There is no reconcilliation stated between Bioware/EA and the fans, most of whom are artists in their own right. We follow the same rules they should have, and this inside knowledge is what gives us the ability to disect the ending with the knowledge and depth we have been doing so.

Yes there are idiots who are not able to respond to this in a calm and rational manner. With the large population the Earth has there is no way to avoid there being a large number of these individuals in any given group. Though the mere fact that people could be this passionate about this subject means that up until now Bioware has indeed been producing games that do come close to being called artworks. They should be flattered that people are responding at all, and they should listen when they do, whether they are passionate or not, though yes I do agree with ignoring the abusive ones (abusive language is not constructive in these instances).

Bad writing is bad writing, plain and simple. An ending that has no place in the universe it was placed in is BAD WRITING. Trying to pull it off as a deep, philosophical statement and claiming "artistic integrity" is just a desperate attempt to justify their own incompetence.

Take it from a writer, there was no "artistic integrity" in the writing of this ending.

[Kinael]

"I believe... while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game"

Now, I do agree with the Sir - there has been a lot of hate from fans. Nothing good can come out of destruction and raging. Expressing our displeasure is most critical, but not through hate.

But seriously, this tiny sentence... is wrong. Why fans are unhappy, is exactly because the artistic integrity of the game is NOT respected in this last five to ten minutes of Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Kinael, 22 mars 2012 - 02:38 .

[Eldanildiel]

Yeah, definitely not encouraged by this response. I was hoping for something a little more definite and a little less glossing over of the very obviously dissatisfying ending we received. All I can say is keep calm, stay courteous, and stay active in threads like this. Vote in polls http://social.biowar.../3114855/polls/ http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/, donate to http://retakemasseff...ect-childs-play, review the game on Metacritic and Amazon... Hold the line, people.

[spacefiddle]

Porfirmir wrote...

RukiaKuchki wrote...
That deserves a lot of respect because there are people at Bioware whose (artistic) pride has been seriously hurt, and the first reaction by a lot of artists to this type of criticism is to ignore it.

I'm no professional artist, but I have dabbled in graphic arts and consider myself an artist after a fashion.  To create art is to invite critique; simply listening to "constructive criticism" and ignoring everything else will not help you improve as an artist.

The most recent Forbes article in response to Dr. Muzyka's statement makes an eloquent argument against the "this is art" defense.  Just because it is art doesn't mean its merits are unassailable. 

Brilliant comment on that Forbes article, by the way:

My personal opinion is that the game is an interactive product that
has artistic merit. That is a long shot from pure art. Pure art can
repulse me or it can excite me. It doesn’t ask me to make choices and
then provide the expectation that those choices will be answered. I
won’t be swimming with Damien Hurst’s Shark anytime soon.

It’s a more worrying trend that this debate is almost purely being
defended by this argument at the exclusion of all others. Listening to
the customers who are dismayed by the ending it is clear that a lot of
them are not really interested in whether it is art or not. They’re
interested in having a product that works as advertised.

Just so.

Modifié par spacefiddle, 22 mars 2012 - 02:51 .

[Blue Liara]

Couldn't agree with you more spacefiddle.

Its a great article on the forbes website. Bioware are still clearly doing the PR dance and the response from Muzyka was not an apology or an acknowledgement. It seemed insulting to me. Labelling those who disagree as the most ardent passionate fans. Sounds like double speak for we think your all nuts.

The article on Forbes sums it up nicely:

"As far as Muzyka’s apology goes: It’s better than nothing, but any apology with a “but” at the end should be taken with a hefty spoonful of sea salt. After all, when has “I’m sorry, honey, but…” ever worked?"

[Lurchibald]

Glitch007 wrote...

Also critic reviews, (unless not mainstream like Yatzee or Angry Joe) have to give decent scores or loose access to their copies to review ahead of release, people like Yatzee get them after, so give a more open, if subjective opinion. Let me ask you this when is a triple A title NOT 98 odd percent or a 9 or 10?

Anyone with ANY sense takes reviews from places like Game Trailers or IGN or Game Mags with a pinch of salt. And Zero Punctuation is SO honest/critical, (Yatzee's shtick) that his comments often make you notice the flaws you wouldn't normally, so should be watched after or again taken with a pinch of salt.

So saying ANYTHING, (Games, Movies, etc...) is critically acclaimed is tainted with their lack of real opinion and is really just fancy words to slap all over advertising.

At the end of the day you can get great reviews from critics, but ultimately the people PAYING for the games are those that matter, if everyone online or friends are saying give it a miss IGN can call it the best game ever it still isn't going to matter all that much when no $$$ is rolling in.

While not necessarily ME3's case, with 3.5 million sales on first few days developers need to not focus on "critics"/reviewers, (seriously they still consider them critics? When ARE they critical?) and to the internet/fan base or more importantly their bottom line.

I posted this earlier, but the Australian PC Powerplay Mag gave a pretty good and Honest Review: http://www.pcpowerpl...-mass-effect-3/

Notable Quotes from the review:

The worst sin BioWare has committed with Mass Effect 3 is a tactless avoidance of consequences to major decisions made in the first two games.

Finding a way to end the conflict with the Reapers was always going to be a difficult one; prior to release, BioWare stated it would not be resolved by uncovering some long-lost Reaper “off” button. Good stuff; ending with a silly macguffin would not be the way to do it. So, instead, Mass Effect 3 has Shepard look under the couch to find some IKEA assembly instructions for a dick-shaped superweapon that, when activated, will function as a long-lost Reaper “off” button. God dammit.

Scripted events are an invasive part of the game’s desperate reach for cinematic greatness.

 
They gave it an 8/10 (Which I believe is fair for the game as a whole) but their verdict was:

VERDICT: A game that’s more shooter than role-playing, and a conclusion that’s more spectacular than dramatic.

 

One quote that's in the mag (but not the online review) is:

Are the cross-game consequences really little more than an added bonus for hardcore fans... or are they what make the series special in the first place? With the expectations built up from even the second game's loading screen, we know the real answer - even if Bioware no longer wants to admit it.

Modifié par Lurchibald, 22 mars 2012 - 08:09 .

[Su13perfitz]

In the same letter he calls some of critics destructive and then says they are looking at ending....Typical PR spin it says nothing concrete. Basically all this letter says is please stop hurting our sales we are looking at the issue. That is what I got from it. Well the good side is they didn't rule anything out. I just hope if they fix they don't screw over the people that liked the ending, man that would suck so hard.

[Petrikles]

Kinael wrote...

"I believe... while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game"

Now, I do agree with the Sir - there has been a lot of hate from fans. Nothing good can come out of destruction and raging. Expressing our displeasure is most critical, but not through hate.

But seriously, this tiny sentence... is wrong. Why fans are unhappy, is exactly because the artistic integrity of the game is NOT respected in this last five to ten minutes of Mass Effect 3.

This, too.

[Fulgrim88]

Kailord wrote...

Kinael wrote...

"I believe... while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game"

Now, I do agree with the Sir - there has been a lot of hate from fans. Nothing good can come out of destruction and raging. Expressing our displeasure is most critical, but not through hate.

But seriously, this tiny sentence... is wrong. Why fans are unhappy, is exactly because the artistic integrity of the game is NOT respected in this last five to ten minutes of Mass Effect 3.

This, too.

I've bumped similiar notions in the past, even made a thread about it (that was swallowed by the FTL forums in seconds), and I'll bump this one too.

Because it's true. And they need to get it into their heads.

If this all ends with some lazy elaboration on the current ending and a text crawl about what happened to the crew in the next few episodes if 'Jungle Fever', this would've all been for naught.

Bioware: Save your artistic integrity by changing  the endings

[captainbob8383]

Kailord wrote...

Kinael wrote...

"I believe... while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game"

Now, I do agree with the Sir - there has been a lot of hate from fans. Nothing good can come out of destruction and raging. Expressing our displeasure is most critical, but not through hate.

But seriously, this tiny sentence... is wrong. Why fans are unhappy, is exactly because the artistic integrity of the game is NOT respected in this last five to ten minutes of Mass Effect 3.

This, too.

Couldnt say better. The ending is in total contradiction with the rest of the series. It makes no sense at all. 
Synthesis/Control/Destruction endings are exacly what Sheppard has been fighting for three games.

Modifié par captainbob8383, 22 mars 2012 - 09:33 .