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BioWare Co-Founder Ray Muzyka to Mass Effect players


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#176
Mikeuicus

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Saku39 wrote...

Quick question, Ray. Who was responsible for this fiasco, and when will they be fired? This abortion of an ending will cost you millions, and a brain dead chimp of a beta tester should have raised the exact concerns as your customers, back in January.

This is not excusable, it's total failure on the part of the developers. Someone needs to be fired, or they'll just do it again and ruin your next game too.


To people who think Ray was dismissing all fan feedback as "destructive", he wasn't. He was talking about posts like this, that can be summed up with "We hate the ending fix it NOW". This doesn't give them anything to work with, while constructive feedback like, "I didn't like X, because Y" gives them a place to start.

#177
Shimond1

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I wish they'd just eat the bullet on this instead of sticking to their guns trying to defend the ending. Just accept that you made a mistake and do it right, please. Your story writers' egos will heal in time. Nobody is perfect.

#178
Turtlicious

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Quietness wrote...

Saku39 wrote...

Quick question, Ray. Who was responsible for this fiasco, and when will they be fired? This abortion of an ending will cost you millions, and a brain dead chimp of a beta tester should have raised the exact concerns as your customers, back in January.

This is not excusable, it's total failure on the part of the developers. Someone needs to be fired, or they'll just do it again and ruin your next game too.


s*** like this needs to stop. We will not win anyone over screaming for people to be fired, and blatant insults.



#179
JulienJaden

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MadMackNT_os wrote...

That's an awful lot of text to say nothing.


It is. He's saying that they are working on 'something'. It's worded in a way that hints at them dismissing our criticism and not changing all that much, if anything, but he doesn't do it in a way that would make a dementi impossible.

What Mr Muzyka says about feedback to the game is not really "all that precise", to say the least. With very few exceptions, we all agree that Mass Effect 3 was really good. Most of us point to the last 15 minutes as being the bite of rotten Krogan testicles that ruins everything else, while a few others, me included, do the same, but also point out that they could have done a lot more with everything after the arrival of the fleet and with the concept they went with for ME2.
And, with few exceptions, everything we say is civil and constructive feedback. I don't know what he's referring to, but it almost sounds like he's trying to provoke us.

All in all, I think they want to see our reactions to this; they also want to wait a little longer, see if the protest continues and if this appeases us.


Well: I don't want explanations. I don't want something that makes a poorly thought-out ending make sense. If a writer can't recognize he's making a mistake, can't scrap a bad idea and tries to make it work at all cost, he's simply not a good writer. Period. And it hurts me to say that about BioWare's writers, but if they say anything but "We see why people are angry. This really is a bad ending. We won't try and fix something that can't be fixed but rather take a different approach", it would really lower my respect for them. I know how hard it can be to admit that you made a mistake and how much you wanna stick to some ideas, but sometimes, you just have to swallow your pride, listen to the people who point out obvious, major flaws and give in.

I want the variety of endings we were promised beforehand. I want the conclusion, the impact of our decisions, uniqueness of our ending you promised. I want a proper ending and an epilogue. And I am not willing to buy any DLC for a game based around choices if what I'd do in that DLC has as little an impact on the ending as the rest of the game.


If a BioWare writer asks me to help out, tell him what I thought was really bad and brainstorm with him to find a solution, I'll do it. No one can tell my I'm not willing to offer constructive criticism. Same goes for pretty much everyone of us.
So, Ray: Don't give us that. We're right here. We want to fix this. Don't be patronizing (and with all due respect: You are). Show your good will. Listen to our input and take it as the basis for an overhaul of the ending, because we know what we're talking about and the lore nerds among us know about as much about the story as your writers.

Give your loyal fans what they want and they will repay the kindness.

But don't let the term "fan" fool you. We are still customers. Paying customers. We represent your core demographic. Ignoring us or trying to appease us with a makeshift explanation for a terrible ending that can't be saved will lead to repercussions. Some will return their games. Some will never buy from BioWare again. Some will turn to piracy. It's all up to you guys, really.

Invest the money you should have invested in the ending in the first place. Fulfill BioWare's promises and this will all be over for good.

#180
JeffKaos

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I wish he wouldn't have brought up the excellent reviews. A lot of reviewers probably didn't reach the end of the game before submitting them. I would like to see the review scores for the last 20 minutes of game play. I also feel that telling people to wait until April is an attempt to get some protesters to back down and by the time mid-April rolls BioWare has a smaller number of people to deal with. I personally don't see them making a serious effort to change anything and even if they do I feel the damage has been done. BioWare has sullied their reputation in a way that no amount of DLC is going to change.

#181
beccathelion

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Shimond1 wrote...

I wish they'd just eat the bullet on this instead of sticking to their guns trying to defend the ending. Just accept that you made a mistake and do it right, please. Your story writers' egos will heal in time. Nobody is perfect.


This

#182
Optimus J

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AHHAHAHHAH Very funny as between the lines "Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. " read as "Damn we got screwed, our value fell, and the company started to face financial problems".

Modifié par Optimus J, 21 mars 2012 - 03:49 .


#183
Turtlicious

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Mikeuicus wrote...

Saku39 wrote...

Quick question, Ray. Who was responsible for this fiasco, and when will they be fired? This abortion of an ending will cost you millions, and a brain dead chimp of a beta tester should have raised the exact concerns as your customers, back in January.

This is not excusable, it's total failure on the part of the developers. Someone needs to be fired, or they'll just do it again and ruin your next game too.


To people who think Ray was dismissing all fan feedback as "destructive", he wasn't. He was talking about posts like this, that can be summed up with "We hate the ending fix it NOW". This doesn't give them anything to work with, while constructive feedback like, "I didn't like X, because Y" gives them a place to start.


Colors and space magic and gods OHMY!

#184
Pathero

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Turtlicious wrote...

Yet, it seems like he favor's critic reviews over fan opinion. Which is great for revenue, bad for keeping a loyal fan base. Also, I can't quite place my finger on it, but something about this post just makes me incredibly angry. It sounds like he's going to work on giving fan's more closure and what not, but yet, I just feel pissed. I don't know if this is the pissed you get when you just want to tell someone "About time!" or if the pissed you get when you feel like you're being lied to and can't explain why. Of course I'm probably just being sensitive, but then I read this paragraph.

Dr. Ray Muzka blogged...

The reaction to the release of Mass Effect 3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better.




I mean, is he saying that Critics are most folks? Is he saying (as I think he is) that we are the vocal minority.

Are we?

I'm not sure what's going on, but I do like that someone finally addressed this and it was the company's co-founder.


I think that he is saying that most folks agree that 99% of the game was good.  It's only the last 1% that there is a problem with.  I'd agree.  Most people are happy with the rest of the game but think the endings blow.

#185
kleindropper

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tariq071 wrote...

Coolfaec wrote...

Is it just me, or were our criticisms labled "Destructive?"


Well they are losing money from sales, EA share is not rising and they are starting to feel heat from press which is more and more sympathetic to Customer.

So , yeah for BW it is destructive right now.


I would classify returning or reselling games, spamming user reviews, and filing FTC complaints in the "destructive" category (not that I nec. disagree with some of these tactics)

#186
Ender99

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All this shows is that we are getting to them. He's still defending the artistic value of the ending, referring to us as "some of the loyal fans" (which translates into vocal minority), and pointing out that all the major critics like it.

However it does show we forced a statement out of them. So, keep up the pressure. Don't slack off because of this. Keep sending the e-mails and the letter, following them on twitter, facebook ect..and above all else.....

Continue to hold the line.

#187
betd2

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I'm not satisfied. There was no apology, no admitting of even the possibility that they screwed up. and he hid behind the "critics"

#188
mghjr6

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It's PR that has to make everyone happy, simple as that. The fact is there HAS been some destructive criticism. Some people have been just plain mean.

But on the whole, compared to what I've seen on this forum before, mostly things have stayed civil here. Especially the last few days. We've acted like a community more than I've seen here before, and I've seen far more constructive things than destructive.

We will still have the daily occurrences of rage here and there, but I say we should prove them wrong about us. We should remain calm and civil.

#189
PotterGaz

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I think you all need to give them a break now. It's clear from that press release that they are indeed going to give the fans something that will at least clear up some of the "plot holes" that i've read so much about over the last 2 weeks.

We need to remember that they are mere mortals at the end of the day who are probably feeling the emotional pain of such a response from the masses. Like Ray said, some of the criticism has been destructive to their sales, morale and image and I genuinely believe they were trying to read the situation and discuss ways to help the fans ever since this first came about.

Now is the time to sit back, be civil and wait for whatever olive branch they are offering. People wanted closure and now it looks like they are trying their best to give some.

#190
thebigbad1013

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Quietness wrote...

Saku39 wrote...

Quick question, Ray. Who was responsible for this fiasco, and when will they be fired? This abortion of an ending will cost you millions, and a brain dead chimp of a beta tester should have raised the exact concerns as your customers, back in January.

This is not excusable, it's total failure on the part of the developers. Someone needs to be fired, or they'll just do it again and ruin your next game too.


s*** like this needs to stop. We will not win anyone over screaming for people to be fired, and blatant insults.


My thoughts exactly. Same thing happened with Dragon Age 2 and honestly none of us have any right to call for anyone to be fired. That's a personal attack. That's destructive. This is the stuff Ray was talking about when he wrote about destructive critism.

#191
czombie

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If they want constructive criticism, I think all they need to do is read the ME3 ending article on GameFront. I still believe that this article provides a great summation of all of the fans' constructive complaints regarding the ending.

#192
Srefanius

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Well they won't changing their ending as a whole. They will try to give more closure in future content, what ever that means. We will see in april if its satisfying, but I think many will be disappointed. For me I can live with it, if they explain it more and show what the endings mean for characters and whole people, cause that was really missing in the full game. People who want their decisions matter seem to be screwed though...

Modifié par Srefanius, 21 mars 2012 - 03:53 .


#193
OrumLeader

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 My interpetation is that they are taking the feed back to address the plotholes exposed.  Perhaps had a little explanation as to what happend to everyone. They most likely wont change anything significant such as new endings.

The end game was as intended which to me makes no sense at all.

I'm a mid 40's software developer for over 20 years.  I have been playing games for over 20 years.  I have been a part of many meaningful debate like discussions ranging from The Matrix and its technical conceptual accuracy to indepth discussions of the state of economy and the impact of domestic ecomonic polices over the last 20 years.  I have been apart of the develepment of new and successful businesses over the years.

I have been told by many that i have engaged these discusions with or worked with that i have above average intelligence (although i don't necessirly think so myself - i can't spell without a spell checker).

My point:  I just don't get these endings.  I guess i don't have the intellilect necessery to comprehend the meanings of the endings and that is unfortuneate because the Mass Effect series is my favorite set of games to date.

I'm gonna stew on this a few days but i think bioware just lost a customer.  I have some SWTOR accounts as well and i'm gonna have to decided what to do with those - not out of protest but because i have lost my faith in Bioware.  I don't want to invest 100's of hours in a game only to be disapointed later again.  This will make my wife extremely happy btw.

#194
Subject M

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Its very important the we get to a point where both developer vision and fan expectations are satisfied.

The best way to do that is to deliver consistency to established lore and events portrayed in the game and provide room for player choice.

The so called indoctrination theory have both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that gives opportunity to salvage the whole mess, but doing so would be both expensive and require the ending being a free DLC (as it would be a prime example of the "full price for incomplete game" problem if you had to pay for it). It would also violate the developers vision IF it was not planned as an hallucination from the start.

#195
Radwar

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I don't trust Bioware anymore (This is your typical PR BS), they've lied to us multiple times so until I actually see a DLC or patch that changes the ending, I'm not holding my breath.
Notice his play on words to show how we are the minority (80 great reviews, some of our fans are mad, etc). Of course the fact that Biowares co-founder actually went out of his way to try and calm things down proves otherwise. There's no mention of the ending polls either, I wonder why? Oh yeah the results are 80%-90% of gamers hate the endings.

Hold the line.

Modifié par Radwar, 21 mars 2012 - 03:52 .


#196
Erenbe

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If they seriously think this ending was ok or in any way artful I will be highly suspicious of any new bioware game coming out in the future...i don't need another artsy surprise that leaves me depressed and angry for days.
maybe i should go back to board games....no bad surprises there!

and i agree with some here...the statement is a longer version of casey's. it doesn't really add much new stuff to it. i'll wait until PAX and see what they have to say....depending on that I will decide whether to have some hope or just leave this all behind and go hiking or something, never to touch a bioware game again.

#197
count_4

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Turtlicious wrote...
The more I read, the angrier I get. which is bad, I just feel insulted somehow. I can't place my finger on it, but I really feel like he wants this whole "out of touch" label to stick.

Yep, they're still at the "people dislike the ending"-level when they actually and finally need to get to the "the writing is objectively bad" one. Plotholes, logical nonsense and lazyness in creation are not a matter of opinion...

#198
TMJfin

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By the goddes. Yes, IMO ME3 is the best game in the series. If I were a game critic I wold propably given it 99 points. But that doesn't change the fact that for many people the ENDING was a disapointment. So yeah, I think that reviews are mostly correct. No one can honestly think that if ending is bad, critics should've gave it 62/100. Sometimes I think that they just don't get what people are talking about. Ending(s) were just little bit "meh" for me, but the thing that irritates me is that they promised something else. And I think that mostly fans has been very polite. Just remember the rage when DA2 came out, this is not a same thing. Now fans are sad and disapointed but mostly don't attack against devs.

Sorry bout the rant, had to let of some steam :P Just to be clear: I love ME3, on my 4th playtrough and multiplayer too is good. Ending doesn't ruin the whole series for me, just makes feel that in the end nothing really matered. I would write more but my brains can't find right english words right now, too damn tired cause of MP :)

#199
Optimus J

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And funny thing is that they DEFINE that taking any action about it is ALWAYS moved by PASSION.They dismiss any reason-driven reaction.

Why someone can't file complain, return a game, write a bad user review based on their own reason? No, that MUST be passion, or otherwise the developers will look bad.

Sad, sad thing. As I said, No more games with Casey Hudson's or Mike Gamble's names for me.

#200
Mr Random Hero

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Basically what I got from that was "Blah blah blah our games amazing blah blah blah 1 or two people at the most dont like the end but what do they know blah blah artistic integrity blah blah new DLC coming soon so buy it blah blah our games amazing blah blah artistic integrity blah blah our games amazing"

Yup, I'm a high road sort of person....