2054 réponses à ce sujet

[dheer]

Thanks Doc. This is the kind of response needed to the issues at hand. It's encouraging to hear there are plans for moving forward.

I love most everything you guys put into this game minus the last ten to fifteen minutes. I've vented here about the endings and I'm sure most of it wasn't constructive. I'll try to be constructive from here on out.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

IGN guy who called gamers entitled is taking this non-commital announcement pretty hard.

twitter.com/#!/notaxation/status/182512779385765888

[oniradix]

What I don’t understand . . . are they making the game for the “critical mainstream media” or for the players and fans that buy all the games and DLCs? And if they make games for the fans then why change the premise of the game 10 minutes before the end?

I love RPGs. I love being able to choose my own story, make my own destiny . . . and for 99% of the Mass Effect trilogy is was awesome. I felt everything I did mattered. But, in the final all control is taken away from the player. It’s a 180 from the rest of the games. Shocking to say the least. And everything I did up to that point make no difference (I could always make up some random “ready” score with multi-player not with how I play the game).

Critics might like the ambiguous ending (even though it is full of plot holes), but I doubt many have played 1-2 over and over again trying different chooses making different imports ready for 3 just to see how it all effects the end. Now, it’s almost pointless to play my other imports when noting I did mattered in the end. I wanted to see what I did make a difference (and I would have settled for a small cut screen of each “asset”), that is the point of playing a RPG and letting the player have control of their game and not playing a liner game. It’s not just their story anymore . . . it’s all of ours. That is why players play these games and that is (I thought) why they make them. A simple ending with more of a tie-in what we did in all three games mattering would have been fine (and it would be nice if it made sense). Like Dragon Age: Origins.

I love this trilogy and I’m sure it’s not the last we see of Shepard, but unfortunately, I’m not really in the mood for any pre-ending DLCs (that I’m sure is planed) and will not buy them . . . what’s the point? It will not matter in the end . . . too bad, I would have bought them all . . .

[LethesDeep]

Alright Ray, this is great; we're finally opening up a dialogue. However, you seem to misunderstand something: we don't want the current ending (singular intended) explained. We want new endings (plural) that give us closure as well as show us how our actions throughout the trilogy affected galactic civilization. We want what we you told us we were getting here: http://social.biowar...ndex/10056886/1

Also, yes the game - minus the ending - is great. That's near-universally accepted. You don't have to throw the reviewers' scores in our faces saying "Well they liked it!" because we liked (most of) it too.

As for the "this game is art" argument... Weeeelll, yes it is. But it isn't good art. Since everyone is so keen to compare the interactive medium of videogames to the non-interactive mediums of books and movies I'd say that this series is like if an author spent a decade writing a gripping trilogy, then decided to rewrite some established lore he didn't quite like (and in doing so break the logic behind a previous book's conflict), then tore out the resolution in an attempt to get his audience to discuss the meaning of things in his story. Oh, and when you end a game with a message saying buy more DLC, you lose most artistic integrity right there.

[Heather Cline]

I have some more to add.

Artistic integrity is a load of crap. There I said it. Just like someone else posted earlier. Artists in the past had to answer to their patrons. Without said patrons they wouldn't be considered the artists they are today. A Graphic Designer today has to answer to the client, to the person they work for. A client comes in and asks that a logo be made. They give you a rough sketch of what they want it to look like. You go and make that sketch a reality. Give it color, depth and life. The client returns and says, "No I don't like that color scheme and I don't like the font that you used. Change it." You don't tell your customer no. You tell them okay and come up with some different color scheme and font to get it closer to what they like. It's a back and forth.

Artistic integrity is only that you as an artist are making a work of art. Art can and will be changed several times before the final product. Even then the client may come back later on and demand changes. You as the original artist have to make those changes or lose that client's business. Why you may ask? Because they pay YOU to do the work and that money pays YOUR bills.

So the whole artistic integrity is crap. The whole "It's Art and shouldn't be changed" is a load of crap. I'm a Graphic Designer I know what artistic integrity is. Artistic integrity is having the integrity to not do a half assed job when making a logo, business card, poster, website, whatever have you. That is artistic integrity. Art changes based on the customer, based on the person asking you to make it.

Video games are not considered art. Are they a way to convey an idea? Yes. Are they subject to change? Yes. Are they set in stone? No. Are they like a painting from Van Gough or from Michael Angelo? No.

When doing a painting you cannot alter it after it's been done. It's on the canvas and cannot be changed. The only way to really change it is to redo the entire piece. Same with a statue or some dinner ware. You'd have to redo the entire piece to change it. That is the unchangeable art.

Changeable stuff is like video games. They can be changed, they can be altered. We have proof of this with Fallout 3. With DLC adding or changing the story as it evolves.

One other thing that someone else mentioned that is also a distinct lack of effort was the unveiling of Tali's face. You took a image and photoshopped it. Seriously, that's lazy. I could do better and I know I can. Heck there is a youtube video of someone who did a better job with that photoshop. Also there was someone who did a artistic rendering of what Tali looked like and her husband did a 3D rendering. This reeks of laziness on the ME team and Bioware over all.

I've never seen such disregard for standards in a long time. Now however I'm seeing it and it sickens me.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 21 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[TekFanX]

In response to the answer from Dr. Ray Muzyka, I'd like to address the whole BioWare-team:

I deeply respect the artistic work done in creating this game.
The writing is one of the most wonderful to find in computer games.
And even though you were limited by the standard of modern home-electronics, you created sceneries that are beautiful.

I deeply respect the visions you had for the Mass Effect universe, I'd have never been a fan of your franchise for so long, if this wasn't the case.

That's the reason these endings hurt even more.
I'll be honest and will say, that I prefer happy endings. I would really have loved to see all the characters I could save through all the games living on, founding a family in the ruins of their home-worlds and rebuilding their future.
Maybe with Shepard in the middle, keeping harmony and peace.

But the lack of such an ending is not the reason I put this banner in my signature.

It's that all the work you put into these games, all the characters and choices you implemented for us to explore and love, don't seem to matter in the great conclusion of a trilogy that otherwise was a masterpiece. The whole mass of features I loved about Mass Effect is so devastated, that I felt betrayed.

Instead of seeing how many people were saved with the choices we made, everything is reduced to numbers. A certain value for everything we achieved, and nothing else. The total number then defines what ending there may be. Endings, that throw up the questions which are asked in the spoiler-forums.

I've read it was intended, to give us closure throughout the game with a multitude of "little" stories.
So many wonderful cameos.
Though I loved every story I saw throughout the game, I can't understand how you can call it a closure, if it happens before the ultimate fight where billions can die.
Everyone of your wonderfully crafted characters is in that battle. Did they fall in the fight? Did they survive?
I find no closure or even satisfaction in that.

Since I respect the rules of this forum, I can't go deep into the things I disliked about the endings, just let me say: Whoever died in the endings, whoever didn't, that's not the point for me. The point is, how they did.

Also I'd like to mention a small critique on the way conversations were handled in ME3. The "zaeedified" conversations, as they are called by some people, did really disappoint me.
Not because I wouldn't like your work, but because I like your work so much, that I want to see the mimics of the characters in detail.
I really admired how you overhauled the facial animations, but sadly, a lot of the wonderful dialogue was zaeedified, so I couldn't dive into it.
Fact is: One of the first things I think of when I hear the two words "Mass Effect", is the dialogue wheel.
It was the way, through which we all could interact with the ME-universe and how we became to love your work so much...don't reduce that.
I want to keep my answer spoiler-free, but I have to say: The one time Tali is drunk, I would really have loved to see in detail how she fiddles with the emergency induction port.



Finally, there's the point of business.
Though I respect your point of artisitc integrity, you sell your art as a product.
We are not just fans or gamers, we are costumers. Your game is about ten Euro more expensive than other PC-games.
I deemed this price worthy in regards how much entertainment and wonderful artistic craftsmanship I saw in the first two games(and in many parts of ME3).
But for me and many others, the ending you delivered doesn't represent the quality I've come to love in your games and it doesn't show the magnitude of choices like it has been mentioned in interviews.

Modifié par TekFanX, 21 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[Silicon Drifter 82]

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

Good Read

[DeinonSlayer]

No amount of "clarification" will in my mind excuse the inevitable destruction of the Mass Relays, dooming the fleet you gathered to starve in Earth orbit, nor will it excuse marooning the Normandy on a world where Tali and Garrus are doomed to starvation while the Normandy crew horribly inbreeds. Exposition on the existing endings is inadequate. We want more options, and outcomes which reflect your actions - as we were promised.

And yes, damn it, I will admit I want the chance to earn a "happy" ending - as happy as it gets in a galaxy of ruined worlds and billions dead. I'm willing to work my ass off to get it. I'll even stoop to multiplayer, a feature I had no interest in altogether. I'm not asking for a parade, a party, or some pretentious medal ceremony - I would in fact be appalled by it. An opportunity for Shepard to reunite with his/her crew/LI would be enough.  

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

This guy gets it.

"What's
sad to me is how everyone in the gaming media seems to think developers
should just make games for their own gratification. 

As someone studying game design, a prospective developer, I can tell
you  I don't want to spend two to three years and millions of dollars
developing something only I can enjoy. 

If I do make it into the gaming industry, I'll be making games for
consumers, not myself. I wholeheartedly agree that games are an art
form, and tampering with art rarely does any good. 

However, if you're going to turn your art into a product and sell it,
you have an obligation to satisfy your consumers to the best of your
abilities.

How dare anyone say that BioWare is 'caving in'. BioWare is
swallowing their pride and going above and beyond the call of duty to
make their consumers more satisfied.

In my book that makes them heroes."

[bazzag]

Gnoster wrote...

A great response from Bioware and greatly appreciated, so thank you for that.

Personally I do worry where the line goes between providing players the needed closure and holding to your artistic freedom. I am all for art, and I do believe computer games can become a form of art (I do not think they are there yet), but I seriously doubt, what the playerbase is looking for is an explanation of the art that is the current ending. If I look at a painting by Picasso and don't understand the deeper meaning with it, it will very seldom help my appreciation of it as a painting if I'm told, the weird paintstrokes are meant to be a selfportrait or a duck or whatever :-).

Personally I am looking for a total remake of the last 5 minutes where the choices made throughout the three games determine how the final fight against the reapers go. I can easily accept three endings as opposed to the current 16 (or 1 ending with 2% variance 16 times). Here the three endings should follow the framework of Mass Effect 2:
1) Total failure; The Sword Fleet and Hammer Groundforces are both destroyed, Shepard dies, his/her friends die, and the Reapers take over the universe. End of Story, cut scene to some future civilization finding the Mass Relays for the first time, thus beginning the next cycle.
2) Total success; If all the right choices are made, all alliances successfull, then the Galatic forces should prevail. Shepard should be allowed to live with his/her friends and LI alive. Give them a future. Yes, it's cheesy, but sometimes cheese is good, and the Mass effect series stands great on it own with the morale of the series as "when you come together no matter race, religion, sexual orientation, or whatever, you can overcome any odds stacked against you"
3) Middle ground; here the reapers are defeated but at even greater cost not only to the Galatic forces but to Shepards and his/her friends as well. Several of Shepards friends, and possibly even his/her LI or himself/herself should die.
Now both number 2 and 3 should finish off with a Dragon Age: Origins based epilogue, where the continued life of Shepard, his/her LI, and friends as well as the races of the universe are told. And this doesn't have to be perfect. I remember feeling sad (but in a good way) about DAO epilogue when it stated that the Chantry was considering an Exalted March against the dwarven kingdom.

Realising my preference for the above requires a total rewrite of the game's last 5 minutes, and that you (read: Bioware) due to holding to artistic freedom wont delete the God/AI child along with the other stuff containing Joker fleeing the battle and the out of place grandfather and child dreaming of going into space one day, I may have to accept that such stuff is probably in there for good for the simple reason of it being "art" no matter how little sense it makes. In such a case I would still propose that you try and do something in the line of the above, because that massive buildup is what most are looking forward to in such a great game.

As a conclusion I can say that after playing ME3 and being immensely dissappointed not only over the ending, but how the feel of the series felt destroyed by said ending, I chose to start a new character in Mass Effect 1 and try and go through the whole series. Now my Kayla Shepard has destroyed Sovereign and brought down the collectors in Mass Effect 2, and though the ending was always present in my thought, I really enjoyed playing through the first two games and I'm find myself looking forward to starting ME3 with her. However I also know that if I do not shut down the game immediately upon being hit by Harbinger's beam, that great experience will once again be ruined. I guess, what I'm saying is; this is such a great series (all 3 games), and it is not too late to save it.

You, my friend, should be a writer for bioware

[Getorex]

Brownfinger wrote...

"Rage until you get your way". Ah, that old chestnut. It used to work for me, when I was nine.
I feel badly, seeing them hammered to the point of submission. Well, as badly as one can feel for people who make assloads of cash.

But hey, if it brings a more thoughtful ending, then maybe it's justified. I think I'm in the minority in that I didn't completely hate the ending, but I would welcome something slightly less metaphysical and weird.

I respect the need to tow the company line, but surely there were a few Bioware employees who cocked an eyebrow at the ending to their game.

Sure, raging when a child can work (or get you a swat on the butt), when you grow up you sublimate it into something else.  Passive-aggressiveness, sabotage, etc.  Adults CAN do this much better than a child with the proper technique.  It is the adults who try the child's techniques where things go off the rails.

[Lookout1390]

Once again, you only resort to the feedback from major reviewers, and this is a heavily lop-sided biased opinion.

We go to work, save up money, found an interest in your game and decided to spend alot of our time/money into it.

You didn't send us a free-copy of the game to be reviewed and give feedback on it. The money we spend for your game/dlc comes directly out of our pockets. You made so many promises, most of which are what are exactly what we wanted.

Instead you give us this....I waited a long time for ME3 like everybody else, I wanted an end to my questions..instead I was left with even more. No closure at all, and for all we know, everyone in the ME galaxy is pretty much doomed or are forced back into a dark-age.

[AntAras11]

Trying to deconstruct Dr.Ray's words, I get the feeling that we can rule out more ending options. The way I see it:
Best case scenario, we get some more TIM/starchild dialogue, extended war-assets related visuals, cut-scene explanation of the teleporting and fleeing controversy plus video epilogue.
Worst case, we only get audio explanation of the controversy plus text epilogue.

I'm leaning on something closer to the worst case scenario. Hope to be proven wrong.

[laughing sherpa girl]

phouria wrote...

Just woke up.

wow lotsa stuff!

even got this forwarded to me at work:

http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1221273p1.html
"Mass Effect 3: New Ending Incoming
New content will provide more closure."

i'm sure its a repost - u guys are always on the ball.

yes, but you see, even the most eloquent and polite critisizms can be misconstued as destructive if all you wish to hear are crtiques which support your position, or at worst, allow for only minor changes in direction requiring neither effort or overhead costs.
Again, constuctive and destructive are subjective definitions and lend themselves to a broad base of usage.  Dr. Muzyka knows this, and we know this.
Isnt that correct Dr. Muzyka??

[Belgarath001]

I'm happy with this. I loved 99% of the game and will probably be the best game I play this year with the only possible exception of Borderlands. The ending was the only let down so more closure will make me a very happy bunny.

[Mmw04014]

In the first paragraph, Ray says he won't defend the game by pointing to the critic scores, yet by the sixth, that is exactly what he does.

Until I see something concrete being planned, all of these "well intentioned" statements that only manage to say absolutely nothing and to trivialize the people with criticisms are meaningless to me. It's clear that Bioware was not being honest right up to release, I'm not expecting them to be honest now.

[TobyTucker]

Whether we actually get the satisfaction of successfully managing to "Take Earth Back" or experiencing the "radically different ending scenarios" that we were promised remains to be seen. This at least is a hopeful sign that they realize they failed to live up to their promises.

[IST]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

IGN guy who called gamers entitled is taking this non-commital announcement pretty hard.

twitter.com/#!/notaxation/status/182512779385765888

Holy sh*** that is hilarious.. these writers crying along side him on the page actually made me spill my Weet Bix on my lap. (a breakfast cereal for non-NZ/Aus BSNers lol).  

This has been a glorious day, the fact conclusion DLC AND new full games are all in the works is extremely welcome news.

Now, the next debate will be are they rolling with their pre-meditated Indoctrination Theory DLC - which would stay true to the "original story" AND maintain "artistic integrity" - I believe, that they most definately are.

Think about it..... what other way could they "continue the adventure" WITHOUT using Indoctrination Theory?

[Star]

Heather Cline wrote...

I have some more to add.

Artistic integrity is a load of crap. There I said it. Just like someone else posted earlier. Artists in the past had to answer to their patrons. Without said patrons they wouldn't be considered the artists they are today. A Graphic Designer today has to answer to the client, to the person they work for. A client comes in and asks that a logo be made. They give you a rough sketch of what they want it to look like. You go and make that sketch a reality. Give it color, depth and life. The client returns and says, "No I don't like that color scheme and I don't like the font that you used. Change it." You don't tell your customer no. You tell them okay and come up with some different color scheme and font to get it closer to what they like. It's a back and forth.

Artistic integrity is only that you as an artist are making a work of art. Art can and will be changed several times before the final product. Even then the client may come back later on and demand changes. You as the original artist have to make those changes or lose that client's business. Why you may ask? Because they pay YOU to do the work and that money pays YOUR bills.

So the whole artistic integrity is crap. The whole "It's Art and shouldn't be changed" is a load of crap. I'm a Graphic Designer I know what artistic integrity. Artistic integrity is having the integrity to not do a half assed job when making a logo, business card, poster, website, whatever have you. That is artistic integrity. Art changes based on the customer, based on the person asking you to make it.

Video games are not considered art. Are they an way to convey an idea? Yes. Are they subject to change? Yes. Are they set in stone? No. Are they like a painting from Van Gough or from Michael Angelo? No.

When doing a painting you cannot alter it after it's been done. It's on the canvas and cannot be changed. The only way to really change it is to redo the entire piece. Same with a statue or some dinner ware. You'd have to redo the entire piece to change it. That is the unchangeable art.

Changeable stuff is like video games. They can be changed, they can be altered. We have proof of this with Fallout 3. With DLC adding or changing the story as it evolves.

One other thing that someone else mentioned that is also a distinct lack of effort was the unveiling of Tali's face. You took a image and photoshopped it. Seriously, that's lazy. I could do better and I know I can. Heck there is a youtube video of someone who did a better job with that photoshop. Also there was someone who did a artistic rendering of what Tali looked like and her husband did a 3D rendering. This reeks of laziness on the ME team and Bioware over all.

I've never seen such disregard for standards in a long time. Now however I'm seeing it and it sickens me.

This.   I would also add that published writers also make changes based upon editorial feedback - they may argue but their editor has a lot of power over the story's shape.  And while stories aren't typically changed after publication, certain there have been series where the author makes what fans consider a misstep and written later books to get around said misstep. 

And movie endings have certainly been altered after test screenings which makes me wonder how widely ME3 was beta'd.

Modifié par Star58, 21 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[carnage4u]

Top issues for me

•  Explain the logic of Creating synthetics to Destroy Organics to Save Organics from being destroyed by Synthetics.
• Explain why Sherpard cannot refute this logic by using EDI or the Geth/ Quarians resolution, (which was really all the quarians fault) and choosing a different ending instead of the dues ex options.

I have other concerns with the endings, but they all stem from accepting the current endings as well (relays explisions, death of billions due to this,  Joker fleeing, plus fleeing with squadmates that were in London )

[Farbautisonn]

Well... Dissected in my blog. Started out great. Ended out... not so great. Ended with "meh".

6/10.

I appreciate the try and the fact that you put your personal weight behind this Ray, but really.... The only thing you bought was time. Till april.

And You didnt stifle the criticism. Because basically all the Blog amounts to is "We are listeing, but I promise you things will happen". And we have heard that before. The hope is now that you can deliver. I sincerely hope you can.

[Getorex]

Cheesy happy endings can work and be powerful if done well.

Hmmmmm. Cheese. I love cheese. Some people don't like cheese so a proper host provides alternatives to cheese.

[Spitfire_mcguire]

GBGriffin wrote...

Personally...I'm somewhat satisfied. Still highly skeptical of what they'll do, of course...but hopeful. Yes, they could just as easily announce take Back Omega DLC or some other nonsense...but I want to believe they would actually take the suggestions seriously.

Either way, at least we have a relative timeline on when to expect an answer. So...that's something.

^This. Hope and satisification that we are getting something from Bioware, mixed with skepticism.

But, I would be willing to play a take Back Omega DLC. It sounds much more exciting than just the side quests from Aria on the Citadel. Take back Omega, with the help of mercs, and you get the full might of the Terminus system on your side and your EMS raises significantly... if only you chose the renegade option at the end. Paragon option results in slightly higher EMS.

[Heather Cline]

Silicon Drifter 82 wrote...

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

Good Read

Yeah and hits many nails on the head. This person really tore apart the so called apology. I like it.