Modifié par King Espi, 21 mars 2012 - 07:24 .
Modifié par VictorianTrash, 21 mars 2012 - 07:25 .
VictorianTrash wrote...
It just sounds like he's saying they're only going to make DLC to explain the endings. I.E middle-of-the-game DLC that attempts to explain away the plot-holes, so that when you reach the ending, you won't be as disappointed.
LPKerberos wrote...
After taking some serious moments to think about my last post, I have still some things to add.
1.) "Games are Art and "Artistic integrity".".
Many of us said it before, but: Artistic integrity only goes that far. If I am comissioned to draw a picture, may it be Manga or Colored Anime, and the person it is for does not like it, I have to redo it. That is the harsh reality. Most people those days say: "Hm, well. Not perfect, but good.". But that is only a sentence to voice displeasure while beeing polite. In no way it reflects anything valuable.
If a game is art, then you must listen to your customers. I am sorry to be rude here, but if 90% of the people say: "It is bad, make a new one.". Well, then I would consider doing so. We cannot force you to do anything, but "Artistic integrity" will not pay your bills. In the end, you are producing games for your fans and the people who buy it. If those loose faith in you right now...will they put any money into your projects?
Yes, be proud of what you have accomplished. Writing one of the best Sci-fi trilogys out there. Now end it properly. No plot-holes, no Deus ex Machina, no Starchild. Give us what we always had in Mass Effect I and II: An epic end, where we would always love to get back to. This is not in any way what we got now, even if some people disagree.
Give us this feeling of the first games. Even now, I remember my first end from Mass Effect I. Evening, Tuesday. Was done at 9pm. I emmediatly wanted to see "another" end, it motivated me to kill the Council. And then, time later, I had to go to school. Forgot about time. What I think now is: "Why play again? Some Star-child will tell me what to do, and it will only affect the color in the end.". Is that what you call "The last point on a piece of art"?
2.) "The overall theme of sacrifice"
I said it many times, and I will say it once again: Mass Effect cannot end, even if Shepard lives, without the theme of sacrifice beeing voiced. We have assembled hammer and sword, and trough what? Sacrifice. Will we ever forget how Mordin Solus sacrificed himself to save the Krogans, to give them a second chance? Will we ever forget how Thane died at our side, while we were praying for his (Or our) peace? Will we forget Legions attempt to transmit the Code to the Geth, sacrificing his own intelect?
Will we forget all those smaller people who have fallen to unite everyone? The son of the Primarch, Nihlus at the beginning, Kaidan Alenko/Ashley Williams. Even if Shepard lives, stands to his promise with two little blue children and Liara... sacrifice will always be there. I was so emotionaly hit by Mordins and Thanes death that I was actually ready to tear Harbinger to pieces with my biotics. For everything he did, for every single life the Reapers eradicated over the past billion years.
Give us good endings, but remind us in them what we lost on the way. What our friends got.
3.) "In a Story like this, the hero has to die."
That was quoted by some fans of the ending. Even if they are the minority, they are out there. That Shepard has to die...is simply wrong. In a game of choices, make it possible for Shepard to survive. Talking about sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice to be forced into a worthy action?
There can be endings where Shepard dies a heroic death. For example: War assets less then 3000. The Sword has no way of defeating the Reapers. Shepard is the person at choice. He has the choice: "Run away with his love interest and try to flee the inevitable, or to actually pull of the Paragon action.". Make him turn around, watch the stars. Make him think... of all we had, of all we lost...of all he will save. Then he can turn around and sprint into every beam there is. This would be a sacrifice. If he would sacrifice himself so everyone could be happy. But not for some starchild. Yes, cheesy, but people like such things. We get enough bad news in real-life (I decently point to france). Make us able to get a happy one here if we really try.
But also give us an ending where Shepard emerges out of the rubble, Garrus helping him up, laughing. "We did it Shepard." and Shepard giving one of his famous answers, like: "Yes Garrus. Didn't notice the best Sniper on the Citadel however...was he taking a break?". Show us the Sword, winning over the Reapers.
Or give us a really bad ending. Let an unknown alien race pick up the message in the stars. Let it count what we always had in Mass Effect: Choice. And reflect on them.
4.) "Give us what we were promised to get."
Make every decision in the game count. Give us 16 different TV's in a room. We turn on one, see a bad ending, turn him off and shout: "Wrong channel!". Give us a new ending every time we play trough the game. Well, that is not possible, but give us a different one. Make us play, with new choices, and then when charging in London, let us think: "What will I get now?". Make it a surprise, like a child opening a present at christmas.
5.) "Show us the impact. Make reuniting with our ex-squadmates memorable."
What we build up in the last games isn't easy to explain. We came to care for our squadmates, helping them with the most desperate missions and their deepest wishes (For example Morinth for Samara) bound them together like nothing else. If Hammer is an army, all of them together are something more. They are unstopable. In the end, show us that friendship. For example: As you proceed trough the city, you get a comm from Samara, stating that she has trouble. Make her say something like: "Shepard. After all we have done together...it was an honor serving with you.". Then she disconnects and you have the chance to get to her if you do it right.
And if you reach her in time, make Shepard blast his way trough Husks, reaching her, giving us a little dialog, along the lines: "Oh no! You do not die on me now Samara!". If this could change for the "Romance" option in Mass Effect II has to be seen.
Or make Shepards who were close with Thane (Maybe even romanced him) hear his voice while shooting Reapers, quoting some of his famous lines like: "A prayer...for the wicked.". Make Shepard regain his strenght.
It is a lot of work. But I know: You could do it, Bioware. You sure could. Give us the emotion of our squad...of this friendship that shakes every odd. Hell, I would write them myself if I had to if you give us this emotional attachment in words.
6.) "Listen to us...carefully."
Please, do not make the mistake to take our comments as: "We only want explanation". No, we want what we were promised. We want emotion, we want a fitting ending. We do not want a Star-child, a Deus Ex machina, the unexplainable logic of our squad defecting, of the reasons behind the Reapers.
We do not want to destroy your art...we want to change it for better. Do not read trough half of our post and assume. Take every word into consideration, and make them count. Give us what you promised us, what we want as an ending to the best Sci-Fi trilogy ever. To OUR Story, to our memories.
I do not know if this will reach Dr. Muzyka, or if anyone thinks the same. Only wanted to share my other thoughts on how the endings could improve. Those are some serious thoughts that I get when reading the letter. Do not explain, consider the things above. If necessary I can also write it as a response to the feedback thread... if people believe it sounds good.
King Espi wrote...
I just hope BioWare knows that's not the case. While I'm sure some do, not all of us do. A lot of us are perfectly fine with Shepard dying and from most posts I have seen, we expected it. I'm glad they plan on changing it, but I just hope they understand the complaints and don't just believe what these game journalists write.
Chugster wrote...
Kersca wrote...
You lose any claim to artistic integrity when the final thing we see in the game is an ad for DLC.
you see, this is exactly why they dont say much....someone always moans about what is said...no matter what is said
Heather Cline wrote...
I have some more to add.
Artistic integrity is a load of crap. There I said it. Just like someone else posted earlier. Artists in the past had to answer to their patrons. Without said patrons they wouldn't be considered the artists they are today. A Graphic Designer today has to answer to the client, to the person they work for. A client comes in and asks that a logo be made. They give you a rough sketch of what they want it to look like. You go and make that sketch a reality. Give it color, depth and life. The client returns and says, "No I don't like that color scheme and I don't like the font that you used. Change it." You don't tell your customer no. You tell them okay and come up with some different color scheme and font to get it closer to what they like. It's a back and forth.
Artistic integrity is only that you as an artist are making a work of art. Art can and will be changed several times before the final product. Even then the client may come back later on and demand changes. You as the original artist have to make those changes or lose that client's business. Why you may ask? Because they pay YOU to do the work and that money pays YOUR bills.
So the whole artistic integrity is crap. The whole "It's Art and shouldn't be changed" is a load of crap. I'm a Graphic Designer I know what artistic integrity is. Artistic integrity is having the integrity to not do a half assed job when making a logo, business card, poster, website, whatever have you. That is artistic integrity. Art changes based on the customer, based on the person asking you to make it.
Video games are not considered art. Are they a way to convey an idea? Yes. Are they subject to change? Yes. Are they set in stone? No. Are they like a painting from Van Gough or from Michael Angelo? No.
When doing a painting you cannot alter it after it's been done. It's on the canvas and cannot be changed. The only way to really change it is to redo the entire piece. Same with a statue or some dinner ware. You'd have to redo the entire piece to change it. That is the unchangeable art.
Changeable stuff is like video games. They can be changed, they can be altered. We have proof of this with Fallout 3. With DLC adding or changing the story as it evolves.
One other thing that someone else mentioned that is also a distinct lack of effort was the unveiling of Tali's face. You took a image and photoshopped it. Seriously, that's lazy. I could do better and I know I can. Heck there is a youtube video of someone who did a better job with that photoshop. Also there was someone who did a artistic rendering of what Tali looked like and her husband did a 3D rendering. This reeks of laziness on the ME team and Bioware over all.
I've never seen such disregard for standards in a long time. Now however I'm seeing it and it sickens me.
JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Thank you Dr. Muzyka.
I have faith that you will take your time and carefully respond to and produce content that will vindicate your companies outstanding reputation as the number one RPG development house around.
Destructive criticism should indeed be disregarded. Rage is only good in the ring or on the battlefield.
Chatboy 91 wrote...
I’ve been a bit silent these past few days, mostly just distracting myself from this mess while catching the occasional bit of news. But then I saw the new blog post, and I had to respond.
First of all, stop grasping at your artistic integrity BioWare. It isn’t there anymore, for a few reasons I will outline. There are a few issues surrounding this ending, but one of the most glaring is the poor construction of it. The community has pointed out a multitude of plot holes, and logical fallacies that thus far, have been completely ignored. The team may be “poring over everything they can find about reactions to the game…” but thus far, we have not received any explanation, or recognition for these issues. From an artistic stand point, I think it’s safe to say any proper writer would level a very harsh critique on this ending; especially considering the previous promises and statements that were issued leading up to release day.
Secondly, taking a quick read over the article I see a certain phrase being thrown around: “constructive criticism”. I also noticed the phrase: “…become destructive rather than constructive”. At this point, I would say your artistic integrity, has been completely thrown out the window. All great artists, especially in the medium of video games, and digital art in general, understand and accept all forms of criticism. There is no distinction between, “constructive” and “destructive” criticism. I know how tempting it is to fall into this trap. As a 3D artist myself, I’ve used the same defense before, much to my amateur chagrin. However, you cannot throw out a mountain of criticism simply because it isn’t “constructive” enough. That is not being a proper artist in this medium. I fully understand that “flaming” should be completely intolerable. However, in my experience of this movement, I have seen little to no personal attacks, only criticism that by definition is constructive.
I don’t know what your plans are BioWare. As a huge fan of the Mass Effect series, and your work in general, I hope you can come to some sort of understanding. While gaming critics may be lauding Mass Effect 3 as one of the greatest games of all time, as you stated, “…loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded…” While proper reviews from gaming critics are all fine and dandy, at the end of the day, the biggest opinion that matters is not the opinion offered by a critic who sped through the game to get a review out. Your loyal fans are the ones who should be determining your “net pride”.
In the meantime, I’ll just keep holding the line with my fellow comrades.
WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Jsxdf wrote...
We do need to chill out with the destructive & insulting comments/feedback. Bioware does not deserve the insane crap some people are saying and doing to them. They have listened to their fans on many issues and gave us alot of what we wanted in Mass Effect.
Thank you Bioware for everything you guys have done for us, making great games, and just generally being awesome. I hope to see and play more of your games in the future, especially Mass Effect.
Btw, to those demanding they alter/remove content, they don't have to alter or remove anything. There is something called DLC that can easily address our concerns. Also, don't expect them to come out and say exactly what they are doing. That would basically be spoilers.
Of course people need to lay off the destructive and insulting messages. That's pretty much a given. Not only do they not deserve it but even if they did it would not be acceptable to give it. Unfortunately, when people get that worked up there's really nothing you can say to them to stop it. They just burn out naturally and calm down. Usually.
People would appreciate to know how extensive of a solution they are considering. Whether it will just explain things, whether it will alter things, or whether it will be an entirely new branch(s). You don't have to be vague to get a point across. You just have to be honest with what you *can* share and don't even try sharing things you can't get into any details on.
Modifié par Naughty Bear, 21 mars 2012 - 07:27 .
LPKerberos wrote...
VictorianTrash wrote...
It just sounds like he's saying they're only going to make DLC to explain the endings. I.E middle-of-the-game DLC that attempts to explain away the plot-holes, so that when you reach the ending, you won't be as disappointed.
One of the possible options, yes.
I do not hope it will come to this, but it would be cheaper then redoing the end.
Modifié par V0RP4L, 21 mars 2012 - 07:27 .
I sincerely hope that is -not- what they mean ^^;VictorianTrash wrote...
It just sounds like he's saying they're only going to make DLC to explain the endings. I.E middle-of-the-game DLC that attempts to explain away the plot-holes, so that when you reach the ending, you won't be as disappointed. Sigh.
Guest_L00p_*
llandwynwyn wrote...
People are being too trusting, really, he made no promise of a fix for the endings.
Bioware is walking on thin ice here, so I hope it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get news of Aria's dlc in April.
MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Thank you Dr. Muzyka.
I have faith that you will take your time and carefully respond to and produce content that will vindicate your companies outstanding reputation as the number one RPG development house around.
Destructive criticism should indeed be disregarded. Rage is only good in the ring or on the battlefield.
As another article stated, destructive critisism is some of the best because it pulls no punches. It also can sound less fake and condescending.
ragnorok87 wrote...
this is a battlefield. a great epic battle to save what could be the greatest story ever told.
LPKerberos wrote...
After taking some serious moments to think about my last post, I have still some things to add.
1.) "Games are Art and "Artistic integrity".".
*snip*
I do not know if this will reach Dr. Muzyka, or if anyone thinks the same. Only wanted to share my other thoughts on how the endings could improve. Those are some serious thoughts that I get when reading the letter. Do not explain, consider the things above. If necessary I can also write it as a response to the feedback thread... if people believe it sounds good.
LPKerberos wrote...
After taking some serious moments to think about my last post, I have still some things to add.
1.) "Games are Art and "Artistic integrity".".
Many of us said it before, but: Artistic integrity only goes that far. If I am comissioned to draw a picture, may it be Manga or Colored Anime, and the person it is for does not like it, I have to redo it. That is the harsh reality. Most people those days say: "Hm, well. Not perfect, but good.". But that is only a sentence to voice displeasure while beeing polite. In no way it reflects anything valuable.
If a game is art, then you must listen to your customers. I am sorry to be rude here, but if 90% of the people say: "It is bad, make a new one.". Well, then I would consider doing so. We cannot force you to do anything, but "Artistic integrity" will not pay your bills. In the end, you are producing games for your fans and the people who buy it. If those loose faith in you right now...will they put any money into your projects?
Yes, be proud of what you have accomplished. Writing one of the best Sci-fi trilogys out there. Now end it properly. No plot-holes, no Deus ex Machina, no Starchild. Give us what we always had in Mass Effect I and II: An epic end, where we would always love to get back to. This is not in any way what we got now, even if some people disagree.
Give us this feeling of the first games. Even now, I remember my first end from Mass Effect I. Evening, Tuesday. Was done at 9pm. I emmediatly wanted to see "another" end, it motivated me to kill the Council. And then, time later, I had to go to school. Forgot about time. What I think now is: "Why play again? Some Star-child will tell me what to do, and it will only affect the color in the end.". Is that what you call "The last point on a piece of art"?
2.) "The overall theme of sacrifice"
I said it many times, and I will say it once again: Mass Effect cannot end, even if Shepard lives, without the theme of sacrifice beeing voiced. We have assembled hammer and sword, and trough what? Sacrifice. Will we ever forget how Mordin Solus sacrificed himself to save the Krogans, to give them a second chance? Will we ever forget how Thane died at our side, while we were praying for his (Or our) peace? Will we forget Legions attempt to transmit the Code to the Geth, sacrificing his own intelect?
Will we forget all those smaller people who have fallen to unite everyone? The son of the Primarch, Nihlus at the beginning, Kaidan Alenko/Ashley Williams. Even if Shepard lives, stands to his promise with two little blue children and Liara... sacrifice will always be there. I was so emotionaly hit by Mordins and Thanes death that I was actually ready to tear Harbinger to pieces with my biotics. For everything he did, for every single life the Reapers eradicated over the past billion years.
Give us good endings, but remind us in them what we lost on the way. What our friends got.
3.) "In a Story like this, the hero has to die."
That was quoted by some fans of the ending. Even if they are the minority, they are out there. That Shepard has to die...is simply wrong. In a game of choices, make it possible for Shepard to survive. Talking about sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice to be forced into a worthy action?
There can be endings where Shepard dies a heroic death. For example: War assets less then 3000. The Sword has no way of defeating the Reapers. Shepard is the person at choice. He has the choice: "Run away with his love interest and try to flee the inevitable, or to actually pull of the Paragon action.". Make him turn around, watch the stars. Make him think... of all we had, of all we lost...of all he will save. Then he can turn around and sprint into every beam there is. This would be a sacrifice. If he would sacrifice himself so everyone could be happy. But not for some starchild. Yes, cheesy, but people like such things. We get enough bad news in real-life (I decently point to france). Make us able to get a happy one here if we really try.
But also give us an ending where Shepard emerges out of the rubble, Garrus helping him up, laughing. "We did it Shepard." and Shepard giving one of his famous answers, like: "Yes Garrus. Didn't notice the best Sniper on the Citadel however...was he taking a break?". Show us the Sword, winning over the Reapers.
Or give us a really bad ending. Let an unknown alien race pick up the message in the stars. Let it count what we always had in Mass Effect: Choice. And reflect on them.
4.) "Give us what we were promised to get."
Make every decision in the game count. Give us 16 different TV's in a room. We turn on one, see a bad ending, turn him off and shout: "Wrong channel!". Give us a new ending every time we play trough the game. Well, that is not possible, but give us a different one. Make us play, with new choices, and then when charging in London, let us think: "What will I get now?". Make it a surprise, like a child opening a present at christmas.
5.) "Show us the impact. Make reuniting with our ex-squadmates memorable."
What we build up in the last games isn't easy to explain. We came to care for our squadmates, helping them with the most desperate missions and their deepest wishes (For example Morinth for Samara) bound them together like nothing else. If Hammer is an army, all of them together are something more. They are unstopable. In the end, show us that friendship. For example: As you proceed trough the city, you get a comm from Samara, stating that she has trouble. Make her say something like: "Shepard. After all we have done together...it was an honor serving with you.". Then she disconnects and you have the chance to get to her if you do it right.
And if you reach her in time, make Shepard blast his way trough Husks, reaching her, giving us a little dialog, along the lines: "Oh no! You do not die on me now Samara!". If this could change for the "Romance" option in Mass Effect II has to be seen.
Or make Shepards who were close with Thane (Maybe even romanced him) hear his voice while shooting Reapers, quoting some of his famous lines like: "A prayer...for the wicked.". Make Shepard regain his strenght.
It is a lot of work. But I know: You could do it, Bioware. You sure could. Give us the emotion of our squad...of this friendship that shakes every odd. Hell, I would write them myself if I had to if you give us this emotional attachment in words.
6.) "Listen to us...carefully."
Please, do not make the mistake to take our comments as: "We only want explanation". No, we want what we were promised. We want emotion, we want a fitting ending. We do not want a Star-child, a Deus Ex machina, the unexplainable logic of our squad defecting, of the reasons behind the Reapers.
We do not want to destroy your art...we want to change it for better. Do not read trough half of our post and assume. Take every word into consideration, and make them count. Give us what you promised us, what we want as an ending to the best Sci-Fi trilogy ever. To OUR Story, to our memories.
I do not know if this will reach Dr. Muzyka, or if anyone thinks the same. Only wanted to share my other thoughts on how the endings could improve. Those are some serious thoughts that I get when reading the letter. Do not explain, consider the things above. If necessary I can also write it as a response to the feedback thread... if people believe it sounds good.
Chugster wrote...
Kersca wrote...
You lose any claim to artistic integrity when the final thing we see in the game is an ad for DLC.
you see, this is exactly why they dont say much....someone always moans about what is said...no matter what is said
Modifié par eghbdgdsgh, 21 mars 2012 - 07:34 .
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