2054 réponses à ce sujet

[OhManTFE]

 VICTORY - WE HAVE VICTORY.

I would like to see how they defend the plot-hole-riddled ending though. Sad to see that they are only addressing issues of 'closure'.



We held the line.

[Errationatus]

durasteel wrote...

It will probably encourage a few to make sure they have a robust peer review process, and might even lead to an occasional focus group.

 

Not necessarily a bad thing.

 
Your post implies that you think many of us simply lacked the sohistication to "get" the ending. I assure you, I got it. I understand it perfectly. It was bad.

My post implies nothing of the kind.  I'd prefer if you don't try and just dismiss what I said because you think I'm "pulling some elitist crap," which this implies.  Having read multiple threads on the outrage - the posts of which are starting to blend together and pretty much do nothing but echo each other - ME3 Ending Hate is now a meme - I flat out state that a great many people have missed the point in their "righteous indignation".  The endings make more sense if you pay attention through the whole rest of the game - which is painfully apparent that the majority of the disgruntled have not done.  At no point have I assigned "blame" to either side.  It's an obvious symbiotic relationship.

[Dethead123]

Well what I got from it was this. "Hey everyone just wanted to say the critics love our work and I'm extremely proud of our team but we're gonna try to appease our most passionate fans (aka practically everyone that doesn't get paid to make reviews) so keep a eye out for future content and games."

[chmarr]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Curiouser and curiouser.

The ending fiasco, IMO, stems from a number of surprisingly mundane factors.  I offer my conjecture.  I could be wrong, I'm open to being proven so:

1.  Fan expectations. Humans have about 13 basic story types they like.  These stories all have endings particular to them and, as a rule, the vast majority of folks will accept nothing but the endings they expect.  Anything that deviates from these expected endings gets rejected.  It is not a matter of "bad" endings to a particular type of story.  It's that we want the ending we expect.  The majority of people simply prefer their stories to be utterly predictable.  Not the process.  The characters can be quirky, but they must conform to basic archetypes.  We must be able to relate.  That real life often writes bad endings to our personal stories is not pertinent.  Our fiction must end well within their genres and as we expect, or we will reject them.  It's basically human nature.  It's reflected in the vast majority of media, especially American media, where pretty much everything is spelled out for an audience, usually through visual and audio clues (certain colours, audio cues and musical "stings").  This is a combination both of Hollywood's general belief in that the public is composed primarily of sensation-seeking idiots, and the public's general apathy and laziness over what they're offered.  We don't watch movies or television to think, ya nerds.  We have books for that.  D'uh.  

The structure is simple and straightforward.  Most "first worlders" prefer their entertainment to be simple, expected and easy.  Anything we have to think about is "boring" or "bad".  Patience from a viewer in entertainment is no longer a virtue, and hasn't been for quite some time.

2.  Subtlety.  This is lost on most of the people in point one.  One of the strengths in art is not just in what it says, but also what it isn't saying, so to speak.  Americans do not appreciate subtlety in their entertainment.  Simply look at the current crop of most popular television series.  Look at the last crop  ...and the ones before that.  As I said, the general trend is that the preference is simple and spelled out.  

For example, in ME3 the majority of the game - unlike the other two - has odd corners.  The majority of the game looks like its in "vignette".  This is something done in dream sequences and flashbacks.  To help a bit:  this vignette is not in the endings. Curious, no?

3.  Credit Where Due.  There's an old saying that "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public".  I am beginning to believe that Bioware and ME3's creators made a mistake in overestimating the average intelligence of their fanbase.  I'm not saying Bioware fans are stupid, by any means.  It is simply a matter of both expectations and perception.  Bioware has practically invented this kind of gameplay, and their way of doing it is still relatively new.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of gamers do not play games for either story or nuance. This isn't a criticism of the fans or even of game companies.  No one is going to play "My Dinner With Andre: The Game".  Games are meant to dazzle and excite us, not make us contemplate lofty ideas or reexamine our ways of thinking.  That some do attempt this - even superficially - is to the credit of game creators.  The popularity and zeal of Bioware's fans is a tribute to the market for this sort of thing, and it is growing, as the popularity of games like L.A. Noire and Heavy Rain testify. 

It is a telling comment, however, that because so many people prefer what they expected and thought they rather arrogantly should have got that they ignored - and they must have - things pretty much in their faces the entire time.  Forest for the trees and all that.  Now, because of this, Bioware is forced, very likely, to prempt plans and create filler to "explain things".

I would like to point out that no one is at any particular "fault".  I think ME3 was an attempt at different form of narrative in games.   Bioware tried to be subtle, to layer the experience and counted on their fans to "get it" - and it failed because gamers simply don't expect subtle, or layers.  There's very little about a firefight that's subtle.  Only Mythbusters gets away with Knowledge Through Splosions.

The biggest "problem" with all of this is that it's been handled poorly by both sides.  Bioware is following the corporate model of PR and releases and the machine rolls on without noticing the angry fists in the air.  Those angry fists belong to fans that have forgotten that patience is a virtue and want what they want when they want and it had damn well better be what they expected.  The anger stems from Bioware not living up to what the fans had created themselves for themselves in the interval between ME2 and 3.  This is also the reason for the "outrage" over DA2.  It's human nature to prefer one thing and expect more of the same in the next iteration.  It's why romance novels - which are consistently among the highest-selling "literature" ever - are all basically one story, told over and over with a doctor in this one and a cowboy in this one and a spy in the next.  

A great many people all over are going to feel rather stupid when this is all said and done.  My only hope is that it doesn't end up discouraging game producers from pursuing story and character-driven games.  That'd be a shame.

the indoctrination theroy was incomprehensibly debunked by nearly all the bioware staff that tweeted it, also the nonsensical inconceivble ending was so messed up even a game developer i know went "wow talk about smashing yourself in the face with a bat"

[Cartims]

"Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions."

Integrity, like charging us an extra $10 on release day for DLC already on the disc or giving us an ending with Shep on LSD or making moot every decision you make in the first two games to give us closure...it was pure crap, plain and simple.

"Artistic Integrity"....we have dismissed these claims.

Modifié par Cartims, 21 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[Eliavres33]

There's something people seem to be forgetting and that left me pretty disappointed with the game. I guess I'll post it here, I believe everyone will agree and I hope the mods & higher-ups see it.

In "AngryJoe's Top 10 reasons why we hate the ending" video, he points out in his 5th reason one of the details the game is lacking the most:

"So many of us logically thought that the War Assets we had collected, the hours of multiplayer played and the relationships we repaired over the course of the game would have impact and be shown during the take back of Earth."

In the beginning of the final battle, when they show that huge armada that we assembled to fight the reapers coming through the Mass Relay, they basically just show a huge amount of ships. Aside from the huge Asari dreadnoughts, the only ships we can actually recognise are the Geth and the Quarian ships.

So we ask, where were the Krogan, Hanar and Batarian, no matter how few? Where were the Blue Suns, Eclipse and Blood Pack ships? These would most definitely be easily recognisable, in the very least for their paint jobs. Where were the Volus bombers?

Where were the RACHNI? Even if we saved them in the first game AND in this one, they aren't even mentioned in the final battle, much less their ships shown. This last case especially, is simply blatant, despite their huge potential impact on the fight, they were pretty much just fed to us as cannon fodder in the action parts of the game. To think how eager some of us have been since the first Mass Effect to see Rachni ships..is just desolating.

But it's not just about appearing in the Final Battle. Bioware could have and should have shown us a bit of each races' battle tactics, big or small. Regardless of their opinion on the ending(s), everyone would've liked to see small details like a squad of elcor tanks in action, or a group of rachni overwhelming a brute, or some volus finally picking up a gun. Little bits and pieces of Mass Effects' lore that we always assumed would find their way into the game to give us a sense that truly every race was out there, playing their part, giving out their all in a desperate attempt to stop the Reapers.
Bits and pieces that, when all summed up, would have made the ending even more spectacular and awe-inspiring. But instead, it left us feeling like a lot is missing.

So if you're working hard on giving us closure, please take this matter in to account

[chammie]

My first blog on this site. I guess the ending didn't settle super well and I came here looking for more information. It seemed incomplete at best and I remember just sitting there for a few minutes when given the choices thinking did I miss something major in the game. Then the crash sequence really had me scratching my head. After discussing with some other gaming friends I realized I wasn't alone on this conclusion so I started searching the net.

I came up with two conclusions:

• The whole ending is a rouse an actual attempt to make fool the gamer as part of the indoctrination scenario. Plausible and risky especially considering the general reaction in the overall community. Not sure if I fully buy this one but it is possible.
• This may have not been exactly the ending they had itended due to time constraints placed on the delivery of the product. I think they were likely scrambling under some deadline pressure and thought well we can put this solution forward which closes out the story line. They tested the ending and said ok this might not fly so lets redo the scene with TIM with some slight modifications that can give us an out in case it is recieved poorly. (This means you could write new content and connect it up with the original game and not destroy the story line in the game).  They you wait and see what happens. I know that we have done this before on projects that had impossible completion dates.

Of course this is all opion and conjecture. No one really knows what the actual truth is other than Bioware. I am hoping for a new ending to the game since this would really improve the games replayability for me personally.

Modifié par chammie, 21 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[camoboy_19]

I think there's this misconception that Mass Effect's universe and plot is only to be critiqued and changed by Bioware. The whole "this is art and we have no right to judge". While Video Games are an artwork, Mass Effect is one of the forms of artwork that is created through working with the community. A lot of feedback from the fans has gone into the games themselves before, not to mention that the majority of the story of your Mass Effect experience is dependent on decisions the player makes.

Bioware and the supporters of ONLY the current ending and no other, seem to think that "We don't get the ending", and it can be implied that some people believe we aren't "deep" enough in critical thought to understand the ending. We understand perfectly well, but this game isn't some indie movie project. It's art, but it is also a product, a product we have been involved deeply in creating through our individual efforts. To make the foundation of the game being our input into the story and universe, and then in the last throes of the game to make such a linear and clearly unsatisfying ending in multiple ways, is what ruins the experience for us.

We never asked for you to re-do the entire game. We aren't saying that the entire game or Bioware itself is horrible. We just want to experience the same value we have through the entire series, where, to our tastes, we can end the game on a happy note, make the entire story end in a bittersweet victory, destroy, save, create, and protect what we want and for our actions in this game of impossible feats completed to be reflected in any ending we want.

Btw, Dr. Muzyka uses favorable reviews by critics as a defense for the ending. Not only is that forgetting all the articles AGAINST the ending (and the history of rEApers sweetening the deal for reviews to be more.... marketable), but it is also assuming that the opinions of the few (reviewers) are more substantial than the opinions of the many (the many many many disappointed fans who, for the most part, love everything until you get to the end). And, honestly, that's not a good stance to have.

[_symphony]

Artistic integrity.

If artistic integrity were important then the game should have been delayed until it meet the ending it deserved. I'm not naive, the game got what it got for the sake of meeting a deadline, not for the sake of art.

[TobyTucker]

Getorex wrote...

While the face import thing is an irritant, it is not a deal breaker.  Seriously, it takes all of 2 minutes to get your character looking essentially like you want it.  If it helps, assume any variations are due to aging - years have passed since ME1 in the story. 

Maybe things are different if you're playing a male Shepard, so I can't conclusively say you're full of it, but I created a rather stunning femShep in ME1 that I cannot recreate in ME3 after spending considerably longer than your "2 minutes" at the effort. It's kinda like dating a girl and then being forced to go out with her sister instead. There's a very strong resemblance, but it's not the same experience. Creating a character and then being able to play that same character throughout the series is a very appealing idea and I cannot see how the face import failure was not noticed and addressed before the game was released.

I hope problems like this are going to be fixed in an upcoming patch, but I'm wondering if I should be worried that there isn't a seperate section of the forums for "bug reports" or "known issues" so that we know the developers are aware of the other problems with the game, not just those with the "endings". From some of the comments made by various members of the team it sounds like they're going through the comments and noting problems as they come across them on spreadsheets, etc, but this seems kinda inefficient. And one has no idea that all the problems that people encounter are being caught. The biggest problem is the uncertainty, isn't it?

[OhManTFE]

I just don't understand how they are surprised at the negative reaction of the ending. I mean what the hell how could they have thought that ending was good? SOMEONE GET DREW BACK TO FIX THIS **** DAMN IT.

[aries1001]

Bioware has always been know to be listening to the fans. However, this doesn't mean that the fans get (everything) what they want. Sometimes, we don't and sometimes we do. I haven't played the game as money is tight these days and my backlog of games are a decade ago - I do, however, have read every thread on this subject. (not every post this, since this is impossible to do as these forums are moving really fast...)

The statement 'we are listening' is a cliché now, however, 15 years ago or so it was a novel/new thing to do. And Bioware listened to feedback from BG1 and BG2 etc. etc. and made better games etc. etc. And then came DA2's launch. The launch of ME3 reminds me a lot of the launch of DA2. People were also wanting to know what happened to the characters etc. etc. after the game ended. The game, DA2, did, however, end, like ME3, in an open ending. This means that nothing seems resolved, yet some stories are resolved, but the main story sets the story arc for another story. Or in short: ME3's endings are probably a way to set the setting for a new story in the ME3 universe. Also, this: Bioware, please try to get the same message out from whoever is talking to game magazines, websites etc. Casey Hudson said in a post that this is not the last you have seen of Shepard and then another person from Bioware said that the ME3 game was the end to Shepard's story. I understand that during this time it may be hard to get the samme message out from different people at your end, but please try to be bit more consistant in your messages to to public and to the fans.

At one point, Ray M. says something about being consctructive. From what I've seen on these very forums, people have been polite, have been constructive, and have quickly dealt with any one who attacked either a Bioware dev. or a forumite personally. People have contributed to the solution, even when they were not part of the problem, they have suggested various things that could be done in a polite, and courteous manner (mostly). It was nowhere near the level of anger and hate, yes hate (not from me, though) that flooded through the DA2 forums when it was released in 2011; actually I think I have only seen one post, maybe two that called for someone to be fired....(not from me, though).

As for not understanding, maybe Bioware can afford? to not have fanbase? understand the endings, but when a young man who only play CoD games don't understand the ending either, Bioware seem to be in - ehm- problems? [I'm referring to a post by someone on the forums who has a friend that played ME3 to the end, and who normally play games like CoD. This friend had to ask the forumite if he had done anything wrong in the game since he got the ending he got....not cool, Bioware....]. The point being, of course, that it is these casual players like him, the CoD friend, that Bioware needs in order to make a profit from the game.
And if they don't understand the ending, chances are that they won't be buying anymore ME games. Sorry to be so business like, but this seems to be language at least the man behind the finance, the CFO, understands.

As for the ending is the way it is: maybe all that's supposed to happen in the ending made perfect sense to the team, since the ME3 team is so involved in the deeper findings and happenings in the game, that the endings and why the would or should happen this or that way seemed clear to me. As I am teacher, this is something, I sometimes have to remind myself of: just because, I, as a teacher know why something is a certain way, it is not necessarely so for the students. I have to view the lesson plan from the students' point of view and change it accordingly, explaining it in more detail so that they understand it and what it is I want them do.

Maybe a similar thing happened here? The team got so involved with the project that they forgot (or didn't have time) to? sit back and watch it from a distance, thus getting a sound and creative distance between themselves and the project of ME3. And asking clearly: does this make sense to the player? How could we explain this better to the player? How could we communicate - during the endgame - what we have intended to the player? And how do we want the player to feel? Any teacher - and probably any game developer? - will tell you that the most difficult thing is to communicate the knowledge, the thing you know, to a student or player. From what I've read so far it seems that the Bioware ME3 team took somethings in the ME3 universe for granted e.g. that they thought the player would have an understand that in the game x were happening while the player thought that y were happening. And this is something a teacher nor a developer should ever do....

As I've said before, the only thing that would calm people down enough are Free Ending DLC on pc. And an Ending DLC that'll cost maybe 1 US dollar on the consoles (since you can't have free dlc on the consoles apparently?)

Edit:

I often wonder what Ray M. and Greg Z. do all day ? Go to meeting? Play videogames? My feeling is that if Bioware are to come out on this deadend, Ray M. need to take charge. And to actually say to the Project Lead and the Exec Producer "why is this ending in ME3? I don't understand it. Either change it or cut it." That's why Ray M. is the CEO/GM of Bioware. He is the top boss should he have forgotten it, he still runs the company (even if it a division of EA - sort of). From what I've read it would have been far better to have cut thelat 5-10 minutes of the game, leaving Shepard where he is at in this moment with a two be continued sign. Or to to have Shepard battle it out with a certain transperable man. And after this final battle, showing a to be continued sign.

Edit 2:
After viewing the endings on youtube, I like them. But that's me. I can certainly understand why people are feeling confused and bewildered at the endings in ME3. The game doesn't end, it seems. It just leads you to have a lot of questions on what happens next. As I've said this is an open ending, but what's worse is that the ending apparently doesn't seem to make much - or any? - sense. (re: the whole speech from the -.ehm- ghost in the machine....)

Modifié par aries1001, 21 mars 2012 - 09:23 .

[nikola8]

My take away from Ray Muzyka's blog - no ending rewrite, but rather more explanation and closure for the current endings.

Smart move by Bioware to play all sides.

[Heather Cline]

Cartims wrote...

"Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions."

Integrity like charging us an extra $10 on release day for DLC already on the disc or giving us an ending with Shep on LSD or making moot every decision you make in the first two games.

"Artistic Integrity"....we have dismissed these claims.

Funny thing is the Day 1 DLC for those who didn't get the Collectors edition isn't even worth it. Compare it to MotA for DA2 or the other DLC for DA2 regarding Hawke's father. Both were at least 3 hours of game play apiece. From the Ashes for ME3 wasn't even an hour long, even with the cutscenes and finding all the data to help the colonists. It was about 45 minutes long. Not worth 10 dollars for those who had to pay for it. 

Yeah Artistic Integrity as they define it is crap.

[Eliavres33]

All in all it was the only move they could make. They couldn't just switch back to that dark energy ending, not after they put this one in the final game.

Meh.

[GuttapwN]

Thank you Ray. I loved ME3 all through, even the ending.

[camoboy_19]

JakeMacDon wrote...

My post implies nothing of the kind.  I'd prefer if you don't try and just dismiss what I said because you think I'm "pulling some elitist crap," which this implies.  Having read multiple threads on the outrage - the posts of which are starting to blend together and pretty much do nothing but echo each other - ME3 Ending Hate is now a meme - I flat out state that a great many people have missed the point in their "righteous indignation".  The endings make more sense if you pay attention through the whole rest of the game - which is painfully apparent that the majority of the disgruntled have not done.  At no point have I assigned "blame" to either side.  It's an obvious symbiotic relationship.

If anything you just clarified you ARE pulling some elitist crap.  You state very clearly you think that "the majority of us" do NOT understand the subtle overtones you are standing behind.  You don't NEED to look for subtle overtones for this ending, the "hidden meanings" and psuedo-philisophical jargon of the story don't necessarily change the fact that the ending of this story was awful, and that most people see that very clearly.  Saying that you aren't saying that we couldn't understand and then impling again that we don't have the critical thought to do so (you aren't the first to) is 100% hypocrisy.

Also, I know people have said in Bioware that they wanted to make sacrifice a strong overtone, but you can ask any player who saw the fleets in ME1 demolished by 1 Reaper and the geth fleet, the Human-Reaper made of the DNA of MILLIONS of humans, and every meaningful death and personal sacrifice you made throughout all the games is quite enough sacrificing as it is.  We got it, trust us.

[Salyut]

This response has made me cautiously optimistic. While I'm happy to hear that BioWare will attempt to address some of our problems with the endings, I won't get my hopes up too much until I have more information.

That being said, I know BioWare can give us the endings that Mass Effect deserves. The great quality of the rest of the game shows they're more than capable. In fact, if this was not a BioWare game I wouldn't be here complaining. I'm used to bad writing in video games, I expect better from a BioWare game. No other game is capable of making me feel immersed and invested the way ME has done. Come on, BioWare. You haven't let me down with ME1 or ME2 and I loved the majority of ME3. Please don't let us down.

I'll be looking forward to hearing more in April. I assume this means we get an announcement regarding the endings during PAX? As for giving feedback... I think everything that can be said about the endings has been said by now.

[MetalCargo999]

Eliavres33 wrote...

All in all it was the only move they could make. They couldn't just switch back to that dark energy ending, not after they put this one in the final game.

Meh.

Well, they could use indoctrination theory as a springboard into the dark energy ending.

[OhManTFE]

Ugh the ending is so bad though, we should keep campaigning to get it rewritten.

HOLD THE LINE.

[XTR3M3]

The Mass Effect series was like a perfect pro football season. There were a couple of small missteps on the way but not enough to stall the juggernaut of awesomeness that is Mass Effect. The Superbowl arrives and they are on the 1 yard line with no one around with 1 second left.....and then they fumble the ball and lose the Superbowl.....but hey, they still had the perfect season.

But wait! Dr. Ray has spoken! He has a chance to dispute the call and put a couple of seconds back on the clock. They now have a chance to win that game back. Let's see what the officials say...

Modifié par XTR3M3, 21 mars 2012 - 09:24 .

[venom56321489]

I still have to wait and see! But I am happy we got a conformation and a date, we the fans deserved that. So thank you ray for stepping up to the plate. But hopefully they look close at all feedback, cause there are many plotholes.
1. more CLOSURE WITH SQUADMATES (WHERE ARE THEY NOW)
2. MORE SCENARIOS FOR ENDING depending on how you played.
3. BETTER LOVE SCENES FOR ALL CHARACTERS(IF THATS LAST TIME YOU SEE YOUR LOVE INTERST BEFORE END ALL BATTLE MAKE IT UNFORGETTABLE NOT FADE TO BLACK).
4. MAYBE HUGE CINEMATIC SPACE BATTLE LIKE WHEN FLEET CAME OUT OF RELAY(THAT WAS STAR WARS AWESOME).

[Mikko182]

I loved me3 but I hated last 10 minutes or so. I'm grateful that you guys are going to do something about it.

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey."

I can't speak for everyone, but most of us just don't want closure, we want more different kind of endings. I hope you guys realize that.

If it's gonna be dlc, I'm willing to pay for it, I just want better ending. Though I want to make it unequivocally clear that I have no intention whatsoever to buy any other future me3 dlc, if I'm not happy the way you guys are gonna fix ending. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but that's how I feel.

I still have faith in you BioWare and I'm hoping you will do the right thing.

Modifié par Mikko182, 21 mars 2012 - 09:25 .