This made me lol.L00p wrote...
Also, BioWare, this comes to mind regarding your behavior as of late:
"Gorion would have none of this, 'tis shameful!
-From a better game, from a better time-
To Mass Effect 3 players, from Dr. Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare
#1001
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:42
#1002
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:43
Refara wrote...
GuardianCameron wrote...
Well, i personally think ME3 is AWESOME and is one of the best
game i've ever played.
The team making it did a great job and i completely agree with
Mr. Ray Muzyka saying it's the best game they've made so far.
Anyway, Bioware team's always seems to give their 100% while making
games and always care about players opinions.
And we like them like that.
Nobody's saying ME3 was bad, 99% of the people who hated the ending absolutely loved the rest.
I did not mean that.
I simply wanted to say i loved the game and that whatever the development team do,
i'm pretty sure that they'll do what they think is best for the fans and the serie.
#1003
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:43
"The Quarian Fleet lasted a total of 2 years before dying off trapped in the Sol System"
"The Turian Fleet lasted a total of 2 years before dying off trapped in the Sol System"
"The Normandy Crew were never heard from again and are trapped on unnamed planet forever"
F*****g A.
I'm not buying any of this.
#1004
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:49
NOW when we finally at least have our foot in the door you're all gonna start raging? Calm down, stay persistent, but stay civil.
"He who is right has no need to shout to be heard.
Speaking is enough to carry his words"
#1005
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:59
Is this patronage art? Nope there is no 1 to one where we get to call the shots. BW owns all the IP and rights. This argument needs to be put to rest.Heather Cline wrote...
I have some more to add.
Artistic integrity is a load of crap. There I said it. Just like someone else posted earlier. Artists in the past had to answer to their patrons. Without said patrons they wouldn't be considered the artists they are today. A Graphic Designer today has to answer to the client, to the person they work for. A client comes in and asks that a logo be made. They give you a rough sketch of what they want it to look like. You go and make that sketch a reality. Give it color, depth and life. The client returns and says, "No I don't like that color scheme and I don't like the font that you used. Change it." You don't tell your customer no. You tell them okay and come up with some different color scheme and font to get it closer to what they like. It's a back and forth.
Artistic integrity is only that you as an artist are making a work of art. Art can and will be changed several times before the final product. Even then the client may come back later on and demand changes. You as the original artist have to make those changes or lose that client's business. Why you may ask? Because they pay YOU to do the work and that money pays YOUR bills.
So the whole artistic integrity is crap. The whole "It's Art and shouldn't be changed" is a load of crap. I'm a Graphic Designer I know what artistic integrity is. Artistic integrity is having the integrity to not do a half assed job when making a logo, business card, poster, website, whatever have you. That is artistic integrity. Art changes based on the customer, based on the person asking you to make it.
Video games are not considered art. Are they a way to convey an idea? Yes. Are they subject to change? Yes. Are they set in stone? No. Are they like a painting from Van Gough or from Michael Angelo? No.
When doing a painting you cannot alter it after it's been done. It's on the canvas and cannot be changed. The only way to really change it is to redo the entire piece. Same with a statue or some dinner ware. You'd have to redo the entire piece to change it. That is the unchangeable art.
Changeable stuff is like video games. They can be changed, they can be altered. We have proof of this with Fallout 3. With DLC adding or changing the story as it evolves.
One other thing that someone else mentioned that is also a distinct lack of effort was the unveiling of Tali's face. You took a image and photoshopped it. Seriously, that's lazy. I could do better and I know I can. Heck there is a youtube video of someone who did a better job with that photoshop. Also there was someone who did a artistic rendering of what Tali looked like and her husband did a 3D rendering. This reeks of laziness on the ME team and Bioware over all.
I've never seen such disregard for standards in a long time. Now however I'm seeing it and it sickens me.
Artists do alter existing paintings all the time. They paint many layers over others until they get it how they want. If they get the moon wrong they can fix it. Or add trees or whatever they want. It is not the point though. If they accept money to produce a piece to a customer's specifications then it is fair that they honor that contract.
Show me where BW made a contract WITH USER NAME HEATHER CLINE to provide this person with ME 3 to his/her specifications. Further more show me where Heather Cline paid for all development of ME3. This is the only way your analogy would have any validity.
Fallacious argument because Bethesda provided Broken Steel for reasons of their own does not entitle BW to do the same with ME3. They are not the same company nor are the situations analygous.
Modifié par InvincibleHero, 22 mars 2012 - 03:09 .
#1006
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 02:59
Now then if Divine Art can be changed, then standard art should be equally as malleable. Good day gentlemen.
#1007
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:02
I don't agree. How they can have enough time to come up with a day one DLC and not enough time to make a good ending. You are just giving them excuses based only on speculations, I only judge facts. Either theyld1449 wrote...
Orez7 wrote...
As countless people already stated that taking into consideration the blatant false promises and hyping of expectations the Bioware has no option but to accept all the criticism and deal with it. No artistic integrity, humanization, surprise can excuse these actions. Once again they promised us everything and gave us nothing about the ending.
The other issue is the shear incompetence of the writers. How anyone could have thought that it was acceptable ending taking into consideration the ME spirit and just common sense in baffling. Most of Bioware employees who could have stopped it and didn't are guilty of this and are rightfully being calledincompetent, well some of them are being called liers, but that's a different story.
Hold the line and be strong, cause that's what Shepard wold have done, my Shepard that is.
Dude I have to disagree with your opinion that the writers are incompetent, and its not right for you to simply make these assumptions. Neither you nor I enjoy it so far when the ending defenders or IGN painted us all with the same brush stroke. Calling us haters, whiners and entitled imbeciles among other things that have been less than kind.
You should not do the same.
Fact of the matter is we don't know WHAT happened on the ME team. Maybe they ran out of time. Maybe a good chunk of their writers had to leave for SW so they were understaffed, maybe the ending they originally had really was scrapped because of a leak and they had to try and write something up. Neither you nor I know the circumstances. And I'm certain that most, if not all the Bioware writing team knew just how bad it was but they just had to put it in there because there was no other choice.
To you and everyone else (and please remind ME if I ever forget) painting an entire group with a single brushstroke is wrong. Especially when there really is no conclusive evidence around the circumstances regarding corporate decisions that they had to make.
finished the game early so they could do the DLC or they removed the DLCto make more money and rushed the game at the same time. It's either or, furthermore I believe there is app somewhere it's a video dated November that shows that this is what they wanted to do. In my line of work I learned that most people are incompetent not because they don't understand something, but because they don't have the guts to correct someone else, be it superior or a colleague. I see this all the time andbefore you say it, all of this people care, it just that they lack courage. Bioware employees either loved the ending (HOW COULD THEY????) or hated it but didn't say a word. I base my statements on the current fact and make a judgement call. You are just speculating. Last thing is that I am not trying to be rude, but I am more cynical then the most.
Also Hold the Line, cause it's worth it.
Modifié par Orez7, 22 mars 2012 - 03:05 .
#1008
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:07
#1009
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:10
#1010
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:11
InvincibleHero wrote...
Is this patronage art? Nope there is no 1 to one where we get to call the shots. BW owns all the IP and rights. This argument needs toi be put to rest.
Artists do alter existing paintings all the time. They paint many layers over others until they get it how they want. If they get the moon wrong they can fix it. Or add trees or whatever they want. It is not the point though. If they accept money to produce a piece to a customer's specifications then it is fair that they honor that contract. SHOW ME WHERE BW MADE A CONTRACT WITH USER NAME HEATHER CLINE to provide this person with ME3 to his/her specifications.
Fallacious argument because Bethesda provided Broken Steel for reasons of their own does not entitle BW to do the same with ME3. They are not the same company nor are the situations analygous.
When you look at a painting, when you look at a sculpture, you're getting the full immage. You can see the whole thing from top to botom. And if you so choose, after viewing the product, you can purchase it. Because you're buying what you see.
In this game however, we don't get to "Test before buying" We buy it in good faith, (for most in this case blind faith) that this product was going to be up to the promised standards. Not custom made to please everyone in the world, but with enough quality to satisfy most of the consumers it was marketed to.
It failed to meet that standard. We essentially bought a car that has the best gas mileage in the world, the best interior design, the best horsepower ect ect ect. only to find out that when they released it to us just after the test drive, they removed the brakes.
Casey Hudson and the writers promised something that the game has blatantly failed to deliver on.
If I were to pay an artist for a painting to hang up on my living room, going only on the faith that this man or woman has done art for me before and has delivered good quality landscapes, (ME1 ME2) and the guy gives me a 2 by 4 drawing of a stick figure on a white canvas, yes I'm going be a very angry patron. And I will probably tell him to make a new one or take that particular piece elsewhere.
So while you may believe they're under no real obligation to make this happen. One does not simply advertise (falsely) a product, then claim its art when the majority of its clientelle tell them to go back and actually deliver on what was promised.
#1011
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:13
Just as it is wrong for players to respond with ad hominem attacks and lawsuits, so too is it... problematic that it takes over $75,000 donated to a charity organization in protest before there is any meaningful response. I understand that it takes a while to come up with a response to this sort of thing, but over $75,000? That people are willing to collectively sacrifice so much in protest of a $60 game speaks volumes of the discontent felt.
I would hesitate to call this an overwhelming success of a game, and credit where credit is due, I'm glad to see Dr. Muzyka acknowledge that the protest movement is not just 'some disapointed fans'.
On a lighter note, I enjoyed this post overall, and given the trend of developer posts getting less and less vague, hopefully by April we'll get some real answers.
Stay strong, Bioware! If any game company can pull this off, I'm sure it's all of you guys!
#1012
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:14
It's hard to talk about things concerning the game in here, seeing as how spoilers aren't allowed.
You get to choose between 3 endings that are all basically the same. Didn't BioWare state at some point that ME3 would have multiple endings, that would be different based on your choices throughout the entire game? Wasn't it stated by BioWare at one point that ME3 had 1000 variables, based on decisions made in ME1 and 2? I played through ME1 5 times, and I have 250+ hours played in ME2 according to Steam. I haven't even finished my second playthrough of ME3, and I don't feel like completing it because I already know how it's going to end and my last save is still on Earth.
As far as the day 1 DLC goes, most of us who bought it didn't mind spending $70+ on ME3, because we expected it would be a great game from a great developer. But a lot feel that day 1 DLC feels like we were forced to spend extra money for a part of the game that belonged there in the first place.
BioWare has a great track record of games, but surely they aren't oblivious to the fact that their games aren't perfect. I'm glad they enjoy making their games, and that they take pride in what they accomplish. But it's very very difficult to make a game that's perfect that almost everyone will like. Especially when the game feels like it has cut corners.
btw the fact that BioWare is even responding to the criticism shows that they ARE worried.
Modifié par Mole267, 22 mars 2012 - 03:19 .
#1013
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:15
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
addiction21 wrote...
BrotherWarth wrote...
Another is that Shepard meekly accepts this premise and the choices presented to him, which is completely out of character for Shepard and the franchise.
Really? Have I played the same games as you? Shepard always accepts the premises presented to him. EVERY TIME.
Zapped with images on Eden Prime and Shepard happily follows them even tho it goes against everything he knows and understands.
TIM tells him he is the hero that can stop the collectors and he goes with that premise. Just takes the Councils spurns and helps TIM.
The sudden discovery of the Crucible he happily takes ahold of it. Even tho he has no idea of what it is or what it does (something repeatedconsistently thrughout the enitre game?). even when he compares it to "a child with a loaded gun".
If anything Shepard has always accepted whatever premise presented to him meekly and has then made only the choices that were made available within that premise.
BS.
Memories of pain, death and destruction were inserted directly into Shepard's mind by the beacon. They became his memories. Why would the Protheans leave beacons just to troll people?
He helps TIM because entire colonies are vanishing and the council/Alliance won't do anything to stop it. And you can be outright hostile to TIM the entire time. Going so far as destroying the Collector base when he demands you give it to him.
And Shepard's struggle has always been about hope. Why wouldn't he latch onto what the Protheans saw as their last chance of saving themselves? Why wouldn't he do whatever it takes to save the galaxy?
The way the entire dialogue between Shepard and the God-child plays out is so poorly scripted and out of character. Shepard never questions ANYTHING he's told. You're given 3 lousy choices by the being who set these events in motion and just roll with it? Nonsense. Why wouldn't Shepard be hostile towards this little punk, or at least have the option? Why would Shepard accept causing the deaths of possibly billions of people just because he's told no matter what he does it's gonna be bad?
#1014
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:22
#1015
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:25
So, I've been waiting a while to express my thoughts on all of this. For good reason, mind you. It literally took
almost 2 weeks to feel like I could talk about this without losing my temper, or jabbering incoherently in rage. And lets face it, thats not helpful to anyone.
I'm not going to harp on the endings. I literally can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said by people more clever and articulate than I am. Plot holes, nonsensical situations, and an overall extremely unsatisfying experience. There's really nothing more you can say about it. The Indoctrination Theory? It's actually an extremely interesting and well thought out idea. Is it what Bioware had in mind? I'm leaning towards no, and nothing Bioware has or hasn't said (this post included) leads me to believe differently. I understand people's need to believe that Bioware is secretly completely brilliant, but at this point I am completely underwhelmed. Anyways, I digress and that's not what I want to talk about anyway.
First of all, I would like to make something clear to the fans who have been leaving imploring messages to Bioware stating things like, "We LOVE 95% of ME3! It's just those last 10 minutes!". Please, in the future be sure to realize that you don't speak for all the fans, and most importantly you don't speak for ME. When you state an opinion you are representing youself and no one else. That being said, the following is my opinion and I speak for no one but myself.
ME3 is a great game. It is by no means a superb game. It is not an epic masterpiece, and it is most certainly not the best game in the series.
With everyone focusing on the disaster that was the end of the game, it's easy to brush aside the problems with the game itself. For me, it was actually the opposite. The lackluster ending just highlighted the issues I had with the game itself, and made them impossible for me to ignore. Had the ending been the satisfying conclusion we were promised I would have been able to gloss over my issues and say, "You know what? I don't even care about the nitpicks. I'm going to go give it another playthrough right now.". As it is, I can't even stand to look at it.
First and foremost, there are technical issues bare minutes after starting the game. The inability to carry over you characters face from the first two games is a pretty crucial flub for those of us who have carried the same Shepard through ME1 and 2. Not to mention that the import system failed to recognize my DLC that I bought, played through, and completed from ME2. Imagine my surprise When Liara proceeded to "shock" me with the knowledge that she was now the Shadow Broker. Uh yeah, no ****. I was there. No matter how many times I imported my save, I was met with the same problem.
I'd also like to point out the number of times I was having a conversation with a squad member only to have them vanish and keep talking, the numerous times my game froze, and what was up with Joker's giant lidless eyes that pierced the very depths of my soul? I can't even look at his face anymore! *shivers*
From a gaming standpoint, Mass Effect has effectivly become a shooter with a story attached. The dialogue wheel was dumbed down to an almost insulting degree, and the ability to explore enviroments? Completly gone. The game was "Shoot, shoot, shoot. Go to the Citadel. Shoot, shoot, shoot. Go back to the Citadel. Get a kitten out of a tree, sex up another crew member, go back to the Citadel." Where was the RPG in this RPG/Shooter? Add a tacked on multiplayer that, despite claims, you really DO need to get the "best ending", (Yes I know it can be done without it, but it's darn near impossible, and really? What's the point?) and you've got a recipe for disappointment. For me, anyway.
And lastly, I'd like to address something that bothered me the most out of everything. When Bioware told us that they were going to include a gay male relationship in the game, I thought that was fantastic. Bioware has always taken brave steps forward when it comes to equality, and this was a great step forward for the LGBT community. Unfortunately, in taking this step forward they decided to compensate by taking about five steps backward in regards to how they portray women in the game. Go figure.
In fact, as a female gamer, my demographic often gets the short end of the stick. We gals are often delegated as love interests or fan service when it comes to games, because games are still primarily a guys domain. They're where the money's at. I don't often expect to see a female protagonist in a game that isn't a boobtastic **** or a giggly gibbering idiot. So in 2007, when my friend told me that I HAD to give ME1 a try because you could play as a GIRL, my expectations were understandably low.
I was blown away, and not just by Shepherd! Ashley, Liara and Tali were well fleshed out characters who served a greater purpose than relationship fodder. IT. WAS. AWESOME.
5 years later and I'm watching the first trailer to show Ashley and thinking, "Oh crap, that's not good.". Because yeah, apparantely Ashley's figured out what everyone in the future (except Sheperd) has figured out, and that's that nothing deflects bullets better that a skin tight pleather outfit with thigh-high boots. But don't forget to flat iron your hair, that's totally important. Look, I'll give you the gratuitious Miranda ass-shots, hell, I'll even give you 007fembot!Edi, because lord knows that all the 12 year olds out there need SOMETHING to ****** to during all the loading screens. But was the Ashley overhaul really necessary? Was it really SOOO intregal to the plot?
Don't even get me started on Jessica "I lick gaming equipment" Chobot. Just... ew, you guys.
*sigh* Whatever. Just an airing of grievances, everyone. It was good while it lasted.
I guess.
#1016
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:29
Art for the sake of profit (where video games fall) can be changed if needed, because the people that commission it have expectations and if they aren't met, they will take their business elsewhere if not satisfied.
I love video games. I spend the majority of my free time (and occasionally procrastinate important things) to play. As a gamer, as well as a designer, I have strong feelings about what the word “art” carries.
“I believe passionately that games are an art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team. The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.”
Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare
I’m sorry, but video games (or any artistic medium) stop being art when you charge money for them. They become products that tend to carry expectations from consumers. Not meeting expectations often means swallowing pride and making changes. There is no room for an ego as a designer or game developer.
When I design something for a client, I have to give up some part of my artistic integrity because I am designing for the client, not for myself. I can’t change his idea of a coffee shop logo into a doughnut shop logo because I like it better (or really like doughnuts). I am being paid to produce something satisfactory to my client. It isn’t back pedaling if I have to make changes because the client doesn’t agree with what I have produced. That is part of being a designer.
I am willing to bet even Michelangelo received missives from the pope who commissioned the Sistine Chapel. “Hey bro, could you make God’s beard a little wavier? Thnx, Pope Julius II.” As a commissioned artist/designer you have to put up with demands, because you are being paid. If you don’t want to put up with demands, you have to make art on your own time and hope people like it. That is the only way to have total control of your artistic integrity.
A quote from The Simpsons comes to mind. A cameraman for a parody of the show Cheaters says ” You know, I used to make documentaries about coal miners, migrant workers- things that matter.”
To which the host glibly replies “Yeah yeah, we’re all ****s, just get in there.”
When you want to make real money, you often have to sell yourself and your artistic integrity down the river. That is just the cruel way of the world.
There is nothing wrong with admitting you misjudged what your client wanted, but unless you want them taking their business elsewhere, you have to be willing to make those changes.
So BioWare changing the endings or giving alternatives, isn’t back pedaling. It isn’t creating a dangerous precedent. It is making the client happy so they keep returning for more business.
#1017
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:32
^this, cant just start going all renegade now, gotta keep it paragon for nowld1449 wrote...
People calm down, it might just be more PR double speak but now is not the time for any of you to fall into anger and just start raging. We've held the line for two weeks with little to no sign Bioware was cracking under the pressure.
NOW when we finally at least have our foot in the door you're all gonna start raging? Calm down, stay persistent, but stay civil.
"He who is right has no need to shout to be heard.
Speaking is enough to carry his words"
#1018
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:38
Major Swift wrote...
^this, cant just start going all renegade now, gotta keep it paragon for nowld1449 wrote...
People calm down, it might just be more PR double speak but now is not the time for any of you to fall into anger and just start raging. We've held the line for two weeks with little to no sign Bioware was cracking under the pressure.
NOW when we finally at least have our foot in the door you're all gonna start raging? Calm down, stay persistent, but stay civil.
"He who is right has no need to shout to be heard.
Speaking is enough to carry his words"
Ditto this. Calm down folks.
#1019
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:39
#1020
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:40
http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/
Read this article on Forbes. Then remember, hold the line, stay vocal, but stay CIVIL
We were all signed on to get in here for the long haul and that's exactly what we're gonna do. But we need to do it Calmly.
#1021
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:41
There is nothing to clarify, because there are no other logical outcomes. We need new ending options which help us avoid some of these horrific consequences, not a DLC which describes them in full, grisly detail. I personally will settle for nothing less. There are easy ways to fix this, and if they are willing to truly listen to the fanbase instead of dogmatically clinging to the ending which is already in place, we will help them see what needs to be done.
#1022
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:41
Guest_BrotherWarth_*
Modifié par BrotherWarth, 22 mars 2012 - 03:42 .
#1023
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:42
#1024
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:42
BrotherWarth wrote...
Why do we have to treat Bioware like women who were just left at the alter? They delivered a lousy product to their consumers. They're not doing us a favor by acknowledging that we're not pleased with said product. I'm tired of being told that I can't be angry out it.
Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.
Modifié par TSC_1, 22 mars 2012 - 03:42 .
#1025
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 03:42
corpselover wrote...
You just insulted critics of the ending, and tried to pass yourself off as elite and better able to comprehend the content. Your post was probably the least insightful in the entire thread.
Alas. You'll forgive me if I let my original post stand on its own merits, yes? I'm not here to educate you in the obvious, nor teach you how to understand what you read. There are remedial schools for that. Failing that, there are several excellent online encyclopedias, dictionaries and grammars that can help you.
Lol. You still have not provided a single insight of substance. You imply there is something we are not getting about the ending, but won't actually come out and say what it is.
Ah. I see where your trouble is. I never actually did that. You seem to think that I was talking about the endings specifically. Well, I wasn't. In fact, I was talking more about their effect than they themselves. Missed that, I see. This kinda proves you didn't read what I said, or if you actually had read all of it, you had trouble understanding what I wrote. I'm going to assume you aren't a total cretin, so I'll further assume I was at fault and wasn't clear. So...
I'll try to help you one last time: All I said, to paraphrase, was that this entire drama was a mixture of a little too many expectations, too much faith, too little attention to detail and too much ball dropping and far, far too many assumptions made - by both sides. I accused no one especially of anything specific. I was not judging any particulars in fans or Bioware nor pointing specific fingers, just trying to suss out the whys and wherefores of the rage and response to it. I put at least half-a-dozen disclaimers to that effect in the post itself. I made it as clear as I could, but you and a few others missed it.
As to the endings, they were presaged pretty much from the beginning of the game. There were enough bleeding hints dropped through both dialogue and actions. Personally, I don't care about the endings. I knew the sh!tstorm would roll in. I wasn't remotely surprised. I also don't care about the rage or its idiotic heights/lows. I just find this whole thing interesting from a psychological standpoint. It's amusing to watch this kind of activism over a game, while half the planet starves and bleeds.
Just like, when it's all over, I'll find the sea of spite that washes over BSN and the smug, self-satisfied "told-you-so's" amusing.
Then you pull some elitist crap, where yes, you do insult large portions of the community by stating Bioware overestimated the intelligence of its fan base. How is implying that we are not smart enough to understand the ending not an insult?
Simple. You have apparent reading comprehension difficulties.
You are wonderfully illustrative of what I was getting at and I thank you for proving my point for me. Again. Looking back on my original post, it was written in perfectly comprehensible English, and no one with a reasonable grasp of same should have had any particular trouble in grasping its meaning.
I am also done explaining it. Anything further would be a waste of our time. Mostly mine.
But hey, you get it right, so that's good. You can't actually come out and say what it is, but you get it. And at least you are outright insulting people now though. No need to veil it right?
I rest my case.





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