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To Mass Effect 3 players, from Dr. Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare


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#1026
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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TSC_1 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Why do we have to treat Bioware like women who were just left at the alter? They delivered a lousy product to their consumers. They're not doing us a favor by acknowledging that we're not pleased with said product. I'm tired of being told that I can't be angry out it.


Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.


Our demeanor isn't going to garner us anything. The only influence we have is our money. And I have no faith in this community to not buy whatever DLC Bioware releases or pre-order whatever games they announce.

#1027
Major Swift

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TSC_1 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Why do we have to treat Bioware like women who were just left at the alter? They delivered a lousy product to their consumers. They're not doing us a favor by acknowledging that we're not pleased with said product. I'm tired of being told that I can't be angry out it.


Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.

exactly this, the minute we start raging is the minute they dismiss us and we lose credibility

#1028
Xyalon

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In light of Dr Muzyka's comment, I have this to say and take pains to ensure that I do not step anywhere into the realms of offense.

I find it difficult to take seriously a comment from someone who can label a large number of people as "some". I quote: "On one hand, some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we're planning to directly address it." That is all well and good, however when a group of like minded individuals amass numbers in excess of 40000, and can raise 75k USD for charity in a matter of days, these people can no longer be branded as "some".

Sir, your loyal fans are those who care enough to tell you what they feel about your games. I doubt you have more than 75k loyal fans across the world, however these are the fans who would be willing to stick up for you, the company they believe in, and the games that you produce. They are the ones who forgive the little errors in continuity, the little bugs in combat, the little graphical glitches, and see the depth of the game as a whole and what it is. The people who buy your games are not all loyal fans, they are people who don't care either way. I myself like to drink Twinings Tea, but if they changed their blend of English Breakfast to something that I found distasteful I would not write in to complain, merely switch to a different brand. This is because I am merely a customer, not a loyal fan.

You have told us that "However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional" and I feel that this is somewhat skewing the perspective. Yes, I would agree that most people think that the game as a whole is exceptional, I believe, in fact, that all three of the series have been truly exceptional games which have broken more than one boundary in their time. The fact is that a majority of the people who have told you that the game is exceptional also includes the people who are telling you that the ending is awful. You cannot take the 50k who say that the game is good and the ending is bad, add it to the 15k who tell you that the game is good and the ending is wonderful, and then say that you have 65k in favour of the game and declare a majority over the 50k who just don't like the ending.

You went on to say "with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s." Since when have critics been worth more than your average user? Especially since a majority of which are under the yoke of knowledge that if they don't give favourable reviews they will receive less popularity, leading to fewer page views, and eventually a loss of sponsorship and advertising income and so be out of a job. Being a critic is comparatively meaningless, it means that you most likely won't pay to play the game yourself, and you may not even complete the game before the review is due. If 75 critics told you that the sky is green and 50000 people told you that it is red, the best thing to do is find out for yourself, but if you can't then going with the majority if you want public opinion is the best bet. The fact that critics are popular means nothing in an age where internet popularity can be made in a day. Marauder Shields attained notoriety greater than many of these critics in a matter of days, but would you listen to his apparent opinion over the voices of thousands of others?

I urge you to look at the facts and figures from Metacritic before going any further with this statement. At the time of writing, there have been 98 reviews by critics which have given the game an overal score of 92.4%. In fact, this score is not something I necessarily disagree with. To a certain extent I do not believe that a game that have given us amazingly emotional moments and joyful fulfilment should be overshadowed by a poor ending. A game that gave us such great memories as the proud and noble sacrifice of Mordin Solus, lead to by actions in order to reconcile his emotional turmoil that has accompanied him since we me truly exceptional. However, if we look at the fact that out of 5048 user reviews, independent and unpaid reviews, the game only is deemed worth 4.2/10. This is the average from players who felt that the emotional moments such as these were reduced to nothing by the ending, who felt that all their efforts and time spent in this game was for naught.

However I somewhat disagree as assigning somewhat arbitrary numbers and scores to games, especially a game that has pushed boundaries along the course of its development and is scattered through with moments of inspired genius. One cannot look at the beautiful yet tragic offering up of newly attained consciousness by Legion so that its people might finally attain true sapience and give it a digit. Words are required to describe how such a choice affected you, or if you chose other paths allowing for callous execution of these people in order for the galaxy to survive, again a game that provides us with instances like this worth more than just a percentage. However we look at the 98 reviews submitted by official critics and see that all 98 are positive. All of them. Most people who are able to see past their own pride would already be harbouring strongly suspicious thoughts about unilateral results such as these, and I think that the term sycophantic might be at the forefront of their minds. When we look at the 2647 user submitted reviews we see only 1001 positive reviews; less than half. We have 202 mixed reviews which I feel may be those which you should truly seek out as they will tell you where you excelled and where you failed, and then we have 1444 negative reviews. These people who are not able to see past the last few minutes of the game, who feel that their entire experience has been ruined because of it. And you cannot ignore these people; you must not.

If you can provide concrete numbers to back up your claims, then I and I'm sure many others will step down. We won't be happy, we won't feel different, but if we can be truly be shown to be in a minority then at least we will be able to understand why you are hesitant to do anything about it. Should you wish to focus on those who seek to assault you with inflammatory and derogatory remarks and label them as part of your "loyal fans" then, like it or not, you are already dismissing us out of hand. Deny it as you may, by bringing to light the effects of those few, you are effectively casting aside those fans of you who are approaching you with civil and cogent debate, who have raised over 75,000 US Dollars for a charity, which both promotes the gaming industry as a whole and spreads the joy of videogames to children in need, to punctuate their belief in you. You are throwing away the opinons of those who support you the most, whose views are driven by love and support and faith and appreciation, and most of whom are respectfully requesting that you give Shepard and the Normandy at least the choice having an ending that we have worked so hard to grant them.

However, if you are willing to take the silence of 1.53 million players who don't care enough about the game to voice an opinion, and take that as a positive, rather than listen to the 75k who have taken the time to vote and type in forums, to email and write to you, to donate to charity and overall expend the energy to inform you that they disliked or liked, and I am aware there are both, how you have ended this series, then I ask for you to tell us. Give us the respect at least to inform us that our opinons no longer matter to you and show us the door so that we may leave and mourn the passing of a company that was one of the greatest game developers to date, and grieve for a gaming series that touched our hearts, our souls and our minds.

You said "I'm proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better." Well, I would be proud to work for BioWare. I too would be proud to have my name associated with a series such as Mass Effect. And you have an excellent opportunity to strive to do better. The ball is firmly in your court.

This is but one voice in a sea of many. I speak for my companions, but not with their words. Each of us has our own voice, our own feelings which we wish to express to you. These words are mine, but may be reflected in the myriad of different entreaties that have been sent in your direction to give reinforcing as well as redirecting feedback. If they fall on deaf ears then where else shall we turn to? When a Game Developer with a history of brilliance such as your own turns its back on its fans as well as its creations, what lies in future for the Gaming industry? What hope is there for Shepard? What hope is there for us?

#1029
stryke135

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While I would love to really believe that actions are being considered to rectify mass effect three's ending, this response honestly comes across as noncomittal and open ended. Unless something is done this will be the last Bioware game that I buy.

#1030
TamiBx

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TSC_1 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Why do we have to treat Bioware like women who were just left at the alter? They delivered a lousy product to their consumers. They're not doing us a favor by acknowledging that we're not pleased with said product. I'm tired of being told that I can't be angry out it.


Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.


^ This.

Guys, please, do not turn against each other!
This is what they are aiming for, so they can say we are raging. They already hinted at it in the last official statemente. We cannot back down now. We need to stay together. We all want the same thing and the only way we will get is by staying together. We are all mad and upset; we were lied to and our awesome gaming experience was turned into a nightmare. But please, let's remain calm and civil.  

#1031
recyclebin2000

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Pyewacket wrote...

Okay, massive wall of text on the way.  It's primarily for my own catharsis, so feel free to skip it.

So, I've been waiting a while to express my thoughts on all of this.  For good reason, mind you.  It literally took
almost 2 weeks to feel like I could talk about this without losing my temper, or jabbering incoherently in rage.  And lets face it, thats not helpful to anyone.

I'm not going to harp on the endings.  I literally can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said by people more clever and articulate than I am.  Plot holes, nonsensical situations, and an overall extremely unsatisfying experience.  There's really nothing more you can say about it.  The Indoctrination Theory?  It's actually an extremely interesting and well thought out idea.  Is it what Bioware had in mind?  I'm leaning towards no, and nothing Bioware has or hasn't said (this post included) leads me to believe differently.  I understand people's need to believe that Bioware is secretly completely brilliant, but at this point I am completely underwhelmed.  Anyways, I digress and that's not what I want to talk about anyway.

First of all, I would like to make something clear to the fans who have been leaving imploring messages to Bioware stating things like, "We LOVE 95% of ME3!  It's just those last 10 minutes!".   Please, in the future be sure to realize that you don't speak for all the fans, and most importantly you don't speak for ME.  When you state an opinion you are representing youself and no one else.  That being said, the following is my opinion and I speak for no one but myself.

ME3 is a great game.  It is by no means a superb game. It is not an epic masterpiece, and it is most certainly not the best game in the series.  

With everyone focusing on the disaster that was the end of the game, it's easy to brush aside the problems with the game itself.  For me, it was actually the opposite.  The lackluster ending just highlighted the issues I had with the game itself, and made them impossible for me to ignore.  Had the ending been the satisfying conclusion we were promised I would have been able to gloss over my issues and say, "You know what?  I don't even care about the nitpicks.  I'm going to go give it another playthrough right now.".  As it is, I can't even stand to look at it.

First and foremost, there are technical issues bare minutes after starting the game.  The inability to carry over you characters face from the first two games is a pretty crucial flub for those of us who have carried the same Shepard through ME1 and 2.  Not to mention that the import system failed to recognize my DLC that I bought, played through, and completed from ME2.  Imagine my surprise When Liara proceeded to "shock" me with the knowledge that she was now the Shadow Broker.  Uh yeah, no ****.  I was there.  No matter how many times I imported my save, I was met with the same problem. 

I'd also like to point out the number of times I was having a conversation with a squad member only to have them vanish and keep talking, the numerous times my game froze, and what was up with Joker's giant lidless eyes that pierced the very depths of my soul?  I can't even look at his face anymore! *shivers*

From a gaming standpoint, Mass Effect has effectivly become a shooter with a story attached.  The dialogue wheel was dumbed down to an almost insulting degree, and the ability to explore enviroments?  Completly gone.  The game was "Shoot, shoot, shoot.  Go to the Citadel.  Shoot, shoot, shoot.  Go back to the Citadel.  Get a kitten out of a tree, sex up another crew member, go back to the Citadel."  Where was the RPG in this RPG/Shooter?  Add a tacked on multiplayer that, despite claims, you really DO need to get the "best ending", (Yes I know it can be done without it, but it's darn near impossible, and really?  What's the point?) and you've got a recipe for disappointment.  For me, anyway.

And lastly, I'd like to address something that bothered me the most out of everything.  When Bioware told us that they were going to include a gay male relationship in the game, I thought that was fantastic.  Bioware has always taken brave steps forward when it comes to equality, and this was a great step forward for the LGBT community.  Unfortunately, in taking this step forward they decided to compensate by taking about five steps backward in regards to how they portray women in the game.  Go figure.

In fact, as a female gamer, my demographic often gets the short end of the stick.  We gals are often delegated as love interests or fan service when it comes to games, because games are still primarily a guys domain.  They're where the money's at.  I don't often expect to see a female protagonist in a game that isn't a boobtastic **** or a giggly gibbering idiot.  So in 2007, when my friend told me that I HAD to give ME1 a try because you could play as a GIRL, my expectations were understandably low. 

I was blown away, and not just by Shepherd!  Ashley, Liara and Tali were well fleshed out characters who served a greater purpose than relationship fodder.  IT. WAS. AWESOME.

5 years later and I'm watching the first trailer to show Ashley and thinking, "Oh crap, that's not good.".  Because yeah, apparantely Ashley's figured out what everyone in the future (except Sheperd) has figured out, and that's that nothing deflects bullets better that a skin tight pleather outfit with thigh-high boots.  But don't forget to flat iron your hair, that's totally important.  Look, I'll give you the gratuitious Miranda ass-shots, hell, I'll even give you 007fembot!Edi, because lord knows that all the 12 year olds out there need SOMETHING to ****** to during all the loading screens. But was the Ashley overhaul really necessary?  Was it really SOOO intregal to the plot?

Don't even get me started on Jessica "I lick gaming equipment" Chobot.  Just... ew, you guys.

*sigh*  Whatever.  Just an airing of grievances, everyone.  It was good while it lasted.  

I guess. 


Well said.

#1032
TamiBx

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BrotherWarth wrote...

Our demeanor isn't going to garner us anything. The only influence we have is our money. And I have no faith in this community to not buy whatever DLC Bioware releases or pre-order whatever games they announce.


Unless it's a new ending, I'm not buying it. Gosh, I can't even play video games anymore without thinking how awful ME3 ended...

#1033
Pyewacket

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recyclebin2000 wrote...

Pyewacket wrote...

Okay, massive wall of text on the way.  It's primarily for my own catharsis, so feel free to skip it.

So, I've been waiting a while to express my thoughts on all of this.  For good reason, mind you.  It literally took
almost 2 weeks to feel like I could talk about this without losing my temper, or jabbering incoherently in rage.  And lets face it, thats not helpful to anyone.

I'm not going to harp on the endings.  I literally can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said by people more clever and articulate than I am.  Plot holes, nonsensical situations, and an overall extremely unsatisfying experience.  There's really nothing more you can say about it.  The Indoctrination Theory?  It's actually an extremely interesting and well thought out idea.  Is it what Bioware had in mind?  I'm leaning towards no, and nothing Bioware has or hasn't said (this post included) leads me to believe differently.  I understand people's need to believe that Bioware is secretly completely brilliant, but at this point I am completely underwhelmed.  Anyways, I digress and that's not what I want to talk about anyway.

First of all, I would like to make something clear to the fans who have been leaving imploring messages to Bioware stating things like, "We LOVE 95% of ME3!  It's just those last 10 minutes!".   Please, in the future be sure to realize that you don't speak for all the fans, and most importantly you don't speak for ME.  When you state an opinion you are representing youself and no one else.  That being said, the following is my opinion and I speak for no one but myself.

ME3 is a great game.  It is by no means a superb game. It is not an epic masterpiece, and it is most certainly not the best game in the series.  

With everyone focusing on the disaster that was the end of the game, it's easy to brush aside the problems with the game itself.  For me, it was actually the opposite.  The lackluster ending just highlighted the issues I had with the game itself, and made them impossible for me to ignore.  Had the ending been the satisfying conclusion we were promised I would have been able to gloss over my issues and say, "You know what?  I don't even care about the nitpicks.  I'm going to go give it another playthrough right now.".  As it is, I can't even stand to look at it.

First and foremost, there are technical issues bare minutes after starting the game.  The inability to carry over you characters face from the first two games is a pretty crucial flub for those of us who have carried the same Shepard through ME1 and 2.  Not to mention that the import system failed to recognize my DLC that I bought, played through, and completed from ME2.  Imagine my surprise When Liara proceeded to "shock" me with the knowledge that she was now the Shadow Broker.  Uh yeah, no ****.  I was there.  No matter how many times I imported my save, I was met with the same problem. 

I'd also like to point out the number of times I was having a conversation with a squad member only to have them vanish and keep talking, the numerous times my game froze, and what was up with Joker's giant lidless eyes that pierced the very depths of my soul?  I can't even look at his face anymore! *shivers*

From a gaming standpoint, Mass Effect has effectivly become a shooter with a story attached.  The dialogue wheel was dumbed down to an almost insulting degree, and the ability to explore enviroments?  Completly gone.  The game was "Shoot, shoot, shoot.  Go to the Citadel.  Shoot, shoot, shoot.  Go back to the Citadel.  Get a kitten out of a tree, sex up another crew member, go back to the Citadel."  Where was the RPG in this RPG/Shooter?  Add a tacked on multiplayer that, despite claims, you really DO need to get the "best ending", (Yes I know it can be done without it, but it's darn near impossible, and really?  What's the point?) and you've got a recipe for disappointment.  For me, anyway.

And lastly, I'd like to address something that bothered me the most out of everything.  When Bioware told us that they were going to include a gay male relationship in the game, I thought that was fantastic.  Bioware has always taken brave steps forward when it comes to equality, and this was a great step forward for the LGBT community.  Unfortunately, in taking this step forward they decided to compensate by taking about five steps backward in regards to how they portray women in the game.  Go figure.

In fact, as a female gamer, my demographic often gets the short end of the stick.  We gals are often delegated as love interests or fan service when it comes to games, because games are still primarily a guys domain.  They're where the money's at.  I don't often expect to see a female protagonist in a game that isn't a boobtastic **** or a giggly gibbering idiot.  So in 2007, when my friend told me that I HAD to give ME1 a try because you could play as a GIRL, my expectations were understandably low. 

I was blown away, and not just by Shepherd!  Ashley, Liara and Tali were well fleshed out characters who served a greater purpose than relationship fodder.  IT. WAS. AWESOME.

5 years later and I'm watching the first trailer to show Ashley and thinking, "Oh crap, that's not good.".  Because yeah, apparantely Ashley's figured out what everyone in the future (except Sheperd) has figured out, and that's that nothing deflects bullets better that a skin tight pleather outfit with thigh-high boots.  But don't forget to flat iron your hair, that's totally important.  Look, I'll give you the gratuitious Miranda ass-shots, hell, I'll even give you 007fembot!Edi, because lord knows that all the 12 year olds out there need SOMETHING to ****** to during all the loading screens. But was the Ashley overhaul really necessary?  Was it really SOOO intregal to the plot?

Don't even get me started on Jessica "I lick gaming equipment" Chobot.  Just... ew, you guys.

*sigh*  Whatever.  Just an airing of grievances, everyone.  It was good while it lasted.  

I guess. 


Well said.


Thanks.  I actually feel better now that I've typed all that out.  :D

#1034
Jymm

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All the ending rage is surreal if you haven't made it to the ending. This game is amazing and I totally agree with Ray that its their best work. And I'm totally prepared to change my opinion 180 degrees and be filled with untold nerd rage when I finish it in a few weeks. Several of my friends have done exactly that. Watching it unfold from a position where I'm only about halfway through my play is very odd. Its possible Bioware will have done something with the ending before I ever even get there. And that thought is even more weird.

So to the BW people: the first 30 minutes are kind of lame, but the next 33 hours are so far some of the best game time I've ever had in 25 years. Just a little perspective to go with all that bitterness. If all you have to do next time is write a better ending, that's a huge win, right? ;)

#1035
InvincibleHero

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ld1449 wrote...

When you look at a painting, when you look at a sculpture, you're getting the full immage. You can see the whole thing from top to botom. And if you so choose, after viewing the product, you can purchase it. Because you're buying what you see.

In this game however, we don't get to "Test before buying" We buy it in good faith, (for most in this case blind faith) that this product was going to be up to the promised standards. Not custom made to please everyone in the world, but with enough quality to satisfy most of the consumers it was marketed to.

It failed to meet that standard. We essentially bought a car that has the best gas mileage in the world, the best interior design, the best horsepower ect ect ect. only to find out that when they released it to us just after the test drive, they removed the brakes.

Casey Hudson and the writers promised something that the game has blatantly failed to deliver on.

If I were to pay an artist for a painting to hang up on my living room, going only on the faith that this man or woman has done art for me before and has delivered good quality landscapes, (ME1 ME2) and the guy gives me a 2 by 4 drawing of a stick figure on a white canvas, yes I'm going be a very angry patron. And I will probably tell him to make a new one or take that particular piece elsewhere.

So while you may believe they're under no real obligation to make this happen. One does not simply advertise (falsely) a product, then claim its art when the majority of its clientelle tell them to go back and actually deliver on what was promised.

I agree with your you don't get to exactly try it before you buy it. People do need to do due dilligence to prevenet wasting their money.

Now the fact that many users here post they are satsified with the product means the flaws you see are your own opinion not lies or defects in the product just your own feelings and interpretations. Kind of like not everyone likes a certain piece of art. Wow crazy how that worked out right?Posted Image

You did not pay BW to make ME3 you bought a finished product period. As I said the patronage argument is a fail. Like it or not you got a complete product you just don't like the end for whatever reason.

#1036
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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TamiBx wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Our demeanor isn't going to garner us anything. The only influence we have is our money. And I have no faith in this community to not buy whatever DLC Bioware releases or pre-order whatever games they announce.


Unless it's a new ending, I'm not buying it. Gosh, I can't even play video games anymore without thinking how awful ME3 ended...


PAYING for the ending they promised would be THEM winning. How are people not getting that? If you give them EVEN MORE money just to deliver on their promises then you're not holding the line, you're being over it.

#1037
ajaxbr

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Question: How would you feel if the creators of "The Sopranos" came back with an additional ending that was available for an additional charge? (This is an example you don't have to be a fan of the show to get the question's underlying meaning.)

#1038
DeinonSlayer

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Pyewacket wrote...

Okay, massive wall of text on the way.  It's primarily for my own catharsis, so feel free to skip it.

So, I've been waiting a while to express my thoughts on all of this.  For good reason, mind you.  It literally took
almost 2 weeks to feel like I could talk about this without losing my temper, or jabbering incoherently in rage.  And lets face it, thats not helpful to anyone.

I'm not going to harp on the endings.  I literally can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said by people more clever and articulate than I am.  Plot holes, nonsensical situations, and an overall extremely unsatisfying experience.  There's really nothing more you can say about it.  The Indoctrination Theory?  It's actually an extremely interesting and well thought out idea.  Is it what Bioware had in mind?  I'm leaning towards no, and nothing Bioware has or hasn't said (this post included) leads me to believe differently.  I understand people's need to believe that Bioware is secretly completely brilliant, but at this point I am completely underwhelmed.  Anyways, I digress and that's not what I want to talk about anyway.

First of all, I would like to make something clear to the fans who have been leaving imploring messages to Bioware stating things like, "We LOVE 95% of ME3!  It's just those last 10 minutes!".   Please, in the future be sure to realize that you don't speak for all the fans, and most importantly you don't speak for ME.  When you state an opinion you are representing youself and no one else.  That being said, the following is my opinion and I speak for no one but myself.

ME3 is a great game.  It is by no means a superb game. It is not an epic masterpiece, and it is most certainly not the best game in the series.  

With everyone focusing on the disaster that was the end of the game, it's easy to brush aside the problems with the game itself.  For me, it was actually the opposite.  The lackluster ending just highlighted the issues I had with the game itself, and made them impossible for me to ignore.  Had the ending been the satisfying conclusion we were promised I would have been able to gloss over my issues and say, "You know what?  I don't even care about the nitpicks.  I'm going to go give it another playthrough right now.".  As it is, I can't even stand to look at it.

First and foremost, there are technical issues bare minutes after starting the game.  The inability to carry over you characters face from the first two games is a pretty crucial flub for those of us who have carried the same Shepard through ME1 and 2.  Not to mention that the import system failed to recognize my DLC that I bought, played through, and completed from ME2.  Imagine my surprise When Liara proceeded to "shock" me with the knowledge that she was now the Shadow Broker.  Uh yeah, no ****.  I was there.  No matter how many times I imported my save, I was met with the same problem. 

I'd also like to point out the number of times I was having a conversation with a squad member only to have them vanish and keep talking, the numerous times my game froze, and what was up with Joker's giant lidless eyes that pierced the very depths of my soul?  I can't even look at his face anymore! *shivers*

From a gaming standpoint, Mass Effect has effectivly become a shooter with a story attached.  The dialogue wheel was dumbed down to an almost insulting degree, and the ability to explore enviroments?  Completly gone.  The game was "Shoot, shoot, shoot.  Go to the Citadel.  Shoot, shoot, shoot.  Go back to the Citadel.  Get a kitten out of a tree, sex up another crew member, go back to the Citadel."  Where was the RPG in this RPG/Shooter?  Add a tacked on multiplayer that, despite claims, you really DO need to get the "best ending", (Yes I know it can be done without it, but it's darn near impossible, and really?  What's the point?) and you've got a recipe for disappointment.  For me, anyway.

And lastly, I'd like to address something that bothered me the most out of everything.  When Bioware told us that they were going to include a gay male relationship in the game, I thought that was fantastic.  Bioware has always taken brave steps forward when it comes to equality, and this was a great step forward for the LGBT community.  Unfortunately, in taking this step forward they decided to compensate by taking about five steps backward in regards to how they portray women in the game.  Go figure.

In fact, as a female gamer, my demographic often gets the short end of the stick.  We gals are often delegated as love interests or fan service when it comes to games, because games are still primarily a guys domain.  They're where the money's at.  I don't often expect to see a female protagonist in a game that isn't a boobtastic **** or a giggly gibbering idiot.  So in 2007, when my friend told me that I HAD to give ME1 a try because you could play as a GIRL, my expectations were understandably low. 

I was blown away, and not just by Shepherd!  Ashley, Liara and Tali were well fleshed out characters who served a greater purpose than relationship fodder.  IT. WAS. AWESOME.

5 years later and I'm watching the first trailer to show Ashley and thinking, "Oh crap, that's not good.".  Because yeah, apparantely Ashley's figured out what everyone in the future (except Sheperd) has figured out, and that's that nothing deflects bullets better that a skin tight pleather outfit with thigh-high boots.  But don't forget to flat iron your hair, that's totally important.  Look, I'll give you the gratuitious Miranda ass-shots, hell, I'll even give you 007fembot!Edi, because lord knows that all the 12 year olds out there need SOMETHING to ****** to during all the loading screens. But was the Ashley overhaul really necessary?  Was it really SOOO intregal to the plot?

Don't even get me started on Jessica "I lick gaming equipment" Chobot.  Just... ew, you guys.

*sigh*  Whatever.  Just an airing of grievances, everyone.  It was good while it lasted.  

I guess. 

Excellent post.

Again, for the record, "clarification" of the existing endings simply will not cut it. We can logically deduce what will happen as a result of the destruction of the Mass Relays, as well as the consequences for the stranded Normandy crew. It's hard to picture a worse outcome, short of total defeat by the Reapers. Unless the content released contains new endings, I will not be buying, and may very well never make another purchase from Bioware. If this situation is resolved in a favorable manner, on the other hand, I will do as I did in ME2, and purchase mission DLC as it becomes available.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 mars 2012 - 03:57 .


#1039
TiaraBlade

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I only looked over it briefly but, from what I can see, it looks positive.

To Bioware: thank you for listening to us and heeding our concerns. I look forward to a remedy that both the fanbase can embrace and will allow you to remain artists. Through this, may you continue to create magnificent games that fans like myself will then continue to embrace.

#1040
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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ajaxbr wrote...

Question: How would you feel if the creators of "The Sopranos" came back with an additional ending that was available for an additional charge? (This is an example you don't have to be a fan of the show to get the question's underlying meaning.)


The difference is that the Sopranos ended with a non-ending. Mass Effect ended with a lousy ending. The Sopranos ends however you want it to. Mass Effect ends and leaves you 10 IQ points stupider.

#1041
Mr. Gogeta34

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TSC_1 wrote...

Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.



Wrong.  The flamey/angry people tell Bioware that there's a real problem.  The calm and civil people detail what that problem is.

You need both.Posted Image

#1042
awaisrauf

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 I just want to say I'm a huge fan of the mass effect series. I bought the first game based on some early videos about the combat and dialog systems without even knowing anything about the plot and loved it.

I subsequently bought the second and third collectors edition of the games just beacuse of the extra content and I didnt want to miss anything story wise, as well as all downloadable content.

I should say I haven't finished the third game yet and after hearing all the bad reviews about the ending I'm in no rush to either. I understand how there's literally 1000s of choices that gets imported from mass effect 1 and 2 (obviously, not all crucial to changing the plot) and how difficult it must be to write for every eventuality that the player might force based on his/her past choices. So I understand the limited number of endings, and dont know why people are complaining about it, it's unrelastic to assume there would be 1000s of endings, from a practical programming/development point of view. As far as common sense goes there can only be 3 vastly different endings: 1) "humans" win, reaper threat and VI stopped for good 2) Repears win, all species destroyed or 3) Some kind of peace is forged between organics and reapers/AI and repears are some how controlled. The 1st ending offers no opportunity for a sequel, the 2nd could have one 50,000 from now when organic life is built up again and they find something from shepard as a warning and 3rd could have a sequel more in the immenent future when the reapers are free again somehow.

The more valid critism I believe is the actualy last 5-10 minutes. This is an ending to not just one but 3 games, I dont think any fan would mind have a more detailed ending explaining what happens to all the main characters/races/worlds, even if its 30 min long or more. Whethere shepard lives or dies I dont think any one cares but closure is improtant, especially if this is the last game of the franchise.

Please read Ross Lincolns article, he has some very good points. http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/ such as the circular logic of killing organics to save orgaincs from being killed, seems like a cop out reason why any of this even started. As well as the plot holes about destroying the relays (which would kill more organics than the reapers could) and the normandy just magically appearing out of nowhere. This is what seems really frustrating to me, you guys took so much time in keeping the continuity over 3 games, even importing the old save files into the new games (something that has never been done before on any console game that i'm aware of), that making an ending with such terrible plot holes just seems lazy too me. Why work so hard for like 4 years and put so much effort into 99% of it just to phone it in at the end? I dont know if it was because of a rush to meet deadlines or EA interfering too much, but it simply shouldnt have been allowed to happen.

I only hope there will be some dlc in the near future which explains things more throughly/cleans up the plot holes or adds the 'real' ending, which is either forced to be made by fan outcry or was orignially part of your plan the whole time (and fan rage made you talk about it before you were ready too), I think either will be fine and accepted by mass effect players.

#1043
Xyalon

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One can complain and still be civil. Shouting louder does not make you heard easier. Infighting does not win wars. Swearing only makes people notice who to ignore in the future.

If you will insist on hurling abuse at each other and at the Devs of this game, then your views will be dismissed with good reason, and PR vultures will swoop down on you and completely skew proportion of people who are holding out for progress with composure.

It might feel good at the time, but it achieves less than nothing. Just because you have a right to voice your opinion however you choose doesn't mean you can abuse that right at the expense of other people. If you really want to scream, shout and swear at someone then I suggest you take a step back from the computer for 15 minutes, get something to drink, or just go outside. Come back when you have cooled off and not only will your arguments be better written, and well received, they might even have some positive effect.

Otherwise, kindly refrain from commenting at all. I don't particularly care if you want to get yourself banned as some sort of statement, but do not do it to the detriment of others.

Thank you.

#1044
Kaidan Fan

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I think that Xyalon has typed out one of the best posts I've seen on these forums about this whole mess. 

About paying for DLC to correct the ending: I would pay for it.  BioWare is a company afterall and it will cost them to make the dlc and I for one don't expect them to go in the hole to make dlc for me.  But, that is merely MY feelings on the matter.  In fact my son strongly disagrees with me and insists he will not buy it and wants it for free.  That is his opinion and he is entitled to it.  And I have mine and I'm entitled to it.    ;)

#1045
Orez7

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BrotherWarth wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Why do we have to treat Bioware like women who were just left at the alter? They delivered a lousy product to their consumers. They're not doing us a favor by acknowledging that we're not pleased with said product. I'm tired of being told that I can't be angry out it.


Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.


Our demeanor isn't going to garner us anything. The only influence we have is our money. And I have no faith in this community to not buy whatever DLC Bioware releases or pre-order whatever games they announce.


I acctually agree with you (buying new stuff) and I think it's very sad. I think is called "abused wife" syndrome or something like that, at the same time the rage is just going to hurt you I am afraid. Bioware should know that we are loyal and faithfull and loving, but someone told me that the line between love and hate is a very thin one.

#1046
Major Swift

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

Because that's how we lose. If we get all flamey and ragey, we can be easily dismissed. If we remain calm and civil, it's harder to do that.



Wrong.  The flamey/angry people tell Bioware that there's a real problem.  The calm and civil people detail what that problem is.

You need both.Posted Image

i have to disagree with that, you dont need both, the calm and civil people tell them theres a real problem way better then those who would just rage at them, they would just dismiss the ragers/all as TSC_1 said, if you were them would you rather listen to the people spewing venom or those with calm and clear points of why a change must come?

Modifié par Major Swift, 22 mars 2012 - 04:04 .


#1047
CenturyCrow

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My suggestion to Dr. Ray Muzyka, is to go back and play the original (perhaps create a custom face). Then play Mass Effect 2. Then play Mass Effect 3. Is the ending still adequate from a full trilogy experience? Does the ending make sense? Did you notice some of the major discontinuity between the games that don't fit?

The ending of ME 3 *might* have been acceptable if it was the only game, not the end of a series. I'd submit that some of the pro reviews were not based on playing the complete game nor on a full play of the series.

#1048
ld1449

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InvincibleHero wrote...


I agree with your you don't get to exactly try it before you buy it. People do need to do due dilligence to prevenet wasting their money.

Now the fact that many users here post they are satsified with the product means the flaws you see are your own opinion not lies or defects in the product just your own feelings and interpretations. Kind of like not everyone likes a certain piece of art. Wow crazy how that worked out right?Posted Image

You did not pay BW to make ME3 you bought a finished product period. As I said the patronage argument is a fail. Like it or not you got a complete product you just don't like the end for whatever reason.


Sir...its not just that we didn't like the ending, though its a rather patchwork piece of...junk, from virtually every viewpoint that I can find. (I have yet to find a SINGLE person to explain to me just WHAT the ending has of merit)

Its also the simple fact that we were lied to. Casey Hudson has direct quotes stating "This will not be an A B or C ending" Which it was.

He also said "So many decisions of the previous games factor into your conclusion that no one Shepard is gonna have the exact same experience" Also a blatant lie.

He also said "There will be multiple distinct endings  ranging from good to bad"

All of this is false advertisement at best, fraud at worst. Because no one can look at these endings and tell me straight to my face that it fulfills any of these promises which are damn near direct quotes from him. It can't even be interpreted as such.

If he would have told us. "The Mass effect universe will have one ending" or The mass effect universe can end in one of three ways"

Then fine, you've been duly informed and buying the full price game is your risk.

But we were blatantly lied to, and this is where almost all art justification falls to the wayside in my eyes because no matter how immutable the artists "vision" should be (On a side note its practically confirmed that this was not the intended vision of the writer because he literally came up with it at the last second)  you can't tell me I'm getting the Mona Lisa, then you hand me Whistlers Mother (No offense intended to the quality of the painting or its painter) and expect me to be satisfied.

#1049
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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Kaidan Fan wrote...

About paying for DLC to correct the ending: I would pay for it.  BioWare is a company afterall and it will cost them to make the dlc and I for one don't expect them to go in the hole to make dlc for me.  But, that is merely MY feelings on the matter.  In fact my son strongly disagrees with me and insists he will not buy it and wants it for free.  That is his opinion and he is entitled to it.  And I have mine and I'm entitled to it.    ;)


This is why we need to be angry. People like you. You see proper endings as a favor Bioware would be doing for us. In reality they LIED about what the ending was going to be. They made the ending exactly what they said it WOULDN'T be, and were so lazy that they made all 3 endings the same but for different colored 'splosions. I don't care if they take a hit correcting their own mistakes and delivering the product they promised.

#1050
Mixon

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Xyalon wrote...

In light of Dr Muzyka's comment, I have this to say and take pains to ensure that I do not step anywhere into the realms of offense.

I find it difficult to take seriously a comment from someone who can label a large number of people as "some". I quote: "On one hand, some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded; we care about this feedback, and we're planning to directly address it." That is all well and good, however when a group of like minded individuals amass numbers in excess of 40000, and can raise 75k USD for charity in a matter of days, these people can no longer be branded as "some".

Sir, your loyal fans are those who care enough to tell you what they feel about your games. I doubt you have more than 75k loyal fans across the world, however these are the fans who would be willing to stick up for you, the company they believe in, and the games that you produce. They are the ones who forgive the little errors in continuity, the little bugs in combat, the little graphical glitches, and see the depth of the game as a whole and what it is. The people who buy your games are not all loyal fans, they are people who don't care either way. I myself like to drink Twinings Tea, but if they changed their blend of English Breakfast to something that I found distasteful I would not write in to complain, merely switch to a different brand. This is because I am merely a customer, not a loyal fan.

You have told us that "However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional" and I feel that this is somewhat skewing the perspective. Yes, I would agree that most people think that the game as a whole is exceptional, I believe, in fact, that all three of the series have been truly exceptional games which have broken more than one boundary in their time. The fact is that a majority of the people who have told you that the game is exceptional also includes the people who are telling you that the ending is awful. You cannot take the 50k who say that the game is good and the ending is bad, add it to the 15k who tell you that the game is good and the ending is wonderful, and then say that you have 65k in favour of the game and declare a majority over the 50k who just don't like the ending.

You went on to say "with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s." Since when have critics been worth more than your average user? Especially since a majority of which are under the yoke of knowledge that if they don't give favourable reviews they will receive less popularity, leading to fewer page views, and eventually a loss of sponsorship and advertising income and so be out of a job. Being a critic is comparatively meaningless, it means that you most likely won't pay to play the game yourself, and you may not even complete the game before the review is due. If 75 critics told you that the sky is green and 50000 people told you that it is red, the best thing to do is find out for yourself, but if you can't then going with the majority if you want public opinion is the best bet. The fact that critics are popular means nothing in an age where internet popularity can be made in a day. Marauder Shields attained notoriety greater than many of these critics in a matter of days, but would you listen to his apparent opinion over the voices of thousands of others?

I urge you to look at the facts and figures from Metacritic before going any further with this statement. At the time of writing, there have been 98 reviews by critics which have given the game an overal score of 92.4%. In fact, this score is not something I necessarily disagree with. To a certain extent I do not believe that a game that have given us amazingly emotional moments and joyful fulfilment should be overshadowed by a poor ending. A game that gave us such great memories as the proud and noble sacrifice of Mordin Solus, lead to by actions in order to reconcile his emotional turmoil that has accompanied him since we me truly exceptional. However, if we look at the fact that out of 5048 user reviews, independent and unpaid reviews, the game only is deemed worth 4.2/10. This is the average from players who felt that the emotional moments such as these were reduced to nothing by the ending, who felt that all their efforts and time spent in this game was for naught.

However I somewhat disagree as assigning somewhat arbitrary numbers and scores to games, especially a game that has pushed boundaries along the course of its development and is scattered through with moments of inspired genius. One cannot look at the beautiful yet tragic offering up of newly attained consciousness by Legion so that its people might finally attain true sapience and give it a digit. Words are required to describe how such a choice affected you, or if you chose other paths allowing for callous execution of these people in order for the galaxy to survive, again a game that provides us with instances like this worth more than just a percentage. However we look at the 98 reviews submitted by official critics and see that all 98 are positive. All of them. Most people who are able to see past their own pride would already be harbouring strongly suspicious thoughts about unilateral results such as these, and I think that the term sycophantic might be at the forefront of their minds. When we look at the 2647 user submitted reviews we see only 1001 positive reviews; less than half. We have 202 mixed reviews which I feel may be those which you should truly seek out as they will tell you where you excelled and where you failed, and then we have 1444 negative reviews. These people who are not able to see past the last few minutes of the game, who feel that their entire experience has been ruined because of it. And you cannot ignore these people; you must not.

If you can provide concrete numbers to back up your claims, then I and I'm sure many others will step down. We won't be happy, we won't feel different, but if we can be truly be shown to be in a minority then at least we will be able to understand why you are hesitant to do anything about it. Should you wish to focus on those who seek to assault you with inflammatory and derogatory remarks and label them as part of your "loyal fans" then, like it or not, you are already dismissing us out of hand. Deny it as you may, by bringing to light the effects of those few, you are effectively casting aside those fans of you who are approaching you with civil and cogent debate, who have raised over 75,000 US Dollars for a charity, which both promotes the gaming industry as a whole and spreads the joy of videogames to children in need, to punctuate their belief in you. You are throwing away the opinons of those who support you the most, whose views are driven by love and support and faith and appreciation, and most of whom are respectfully requesting that you give Shepard and the Normandy at least the choice having an ending that we have worked so hard to grant them.

However, if you are willing to take the silence of 1.53 million players who don't care enough about the game to voice an opinion, and take that as a positive, rather than listen to the 75k who have taken the time to vote and type in forums, to email and write to you, to donate to charity and overall expend the energy to inform you that they disliked or liked, and I am aware there are both, how you have ended this series, then I ask for you to tell us. Give us the respect at least to inform us that our opinons no longer matter to you and show us the door so that we may leave and mourn the passing of a company that was one of the greatest game developers to date, and grieve for a gaming series that touched our hearts, our souls and our minds.

You said "I'm proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better." Well, I would be proud to work for BioWare. I too would be proud to have my name associated with a series such as Mass Effect. And you have an excellent opportunity to strive to do better. The ball is firmly in your court.

This is but one voice in a sea of many. I speak for my companions, but not with their words. Each of us has our own voice, our own feelings which we wish to express to you. These words are mine, but may be reflected in the myriad of different entreaties that have been sent in your direction to give reinforcing as well as redirecting feedback. If they fall on deaf ears then where else shall we turn to? When a Game Developer with a history of brilliance such as your own turns its back on its fans as well as its creations, what lies in future for the Gaming industry? What hope is there for Shepard? What hope is there for us?


Well said! Thank you.