2054 réponses à ce sujet

[Cadence of the Planes]

Kersca wrote...

You lose any claim to artistic integrity when the final thing we see in the game is an ad for DLC.

Says who?

Did Michelangelo lose any claim to artistic integrity when he painted the Sistine Chapel according to the Church's specifications?

[Derengard]

Let's just stop with these pointless art-historic remarks... They don't add anything to the arguments themselves but only more potential for controversy.

You can like changing the ending or not, but it's still a shame that it came to this. No need for Michelangelo. It also ignores the contexts, as there are probably completely different reasons...

[Cadence of the Planes]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Bcoolpro wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

I'm terrified that we're just going to get "explanation" content rather than new endings. That's not enough for me (or for a very large number of Bioware's customers).

According
to a EA press release on march 12th " ME3 sold
890,000 copies during the first 24 hours it was on sale in North America."
 The poll you site doesn't represent "a large number" just yet...
neither does the petition... given the number of games already sold worldwide it's still a little early to be talking about large numbers
at least statically speaking.

Considering that most statistical graphs for behavioural patterns of millions of people are done using much much smaller samples, I fail to see how you can dismiss the sample as being too small...

Interesting - as someone well acquainted with statistical analysis, I'll puy my two cents in.

I don't at all believe the sample was small, but it was beyond a shadow of a doubt misrepresentative. Statistical studies for behavioral patterns that are to have any credence in publication take RANDOM POPULATION SAMPLES to build their data sets. 

I could make a "I ME3 Ending" website, create a poll there, and have all the site visitors vote. I may get thousands of votes, but would that make my sampling legitimate? No - it would be biased, nonrandom sample biased towards those inclined to visit the website.

[Cadence of the Planes]

Derengard wrote...

Let's just stop with these pointless art-historic remarks... They don't add anything to the arguments themselves but only more potential for controversy.

You can like changing the ending or not, but it's still a shame that it came to this. No need for Michelangelo. It also ignores the contexts, as there are probably completely different reasons...

Quite.

But I'm merely demonstrating the pointlessness of making a sweeping generalization amounting to "All artistic integrity is lost when you change the ending..."

I'm rather surprised you only mentioned my counter-example, rather than the sweeping generalization itself. Does *that* add anything to the discussion besides controversy?

Modifié par Cadence of the Planes, 22 mars 2012 - 06:16 .

[avatar2396]

Objectively i give the game a 7.5 out of 10 if i look at the game as a whole. If the ending was good id give it a 9.5. The only thing i take user reviews for anything is patterns. Such as in this game would be that ending is subpar but i would never take someone's word that a game is a 2/10, 8/10, 10/10. There were people giving it a 2 rating on launch day because they didnt like there being a gay character or the running animation wasnt good.

When i went to buy me1 about 3 months ago on amazon it had a 3 1/2 star rating versus 4 1/2 for Xbox . Most of the negative reviews were because you had to be online to authenticate when installing.

[Azure33]

Bioware has lost their way. It is hard to believe that the same company that created Baldur's Gate has devolved into what it is today. They have become more concerned with marketing and sales and less with delivering a great experience for their customers.

I did not buy ME3 because I felt that the From Ashes DLC showed a disrespect for their customers. What has now happened with the complaints about the game itself has confirmed that lack of respect.

[Zwei133]

The forums are skewed, I hate to admit. I only joined them to report some bugs and get involved with the ending fiasco. I didn't bother joining for ME1/2 or DA because I was satisfied with the products. I am sure that those who are unhappy are more likely to vote and be vocal than those that are ambivalent or at least not-unhappy. I strongly doubt people can be genuinely happy with the ending due to the technical issues with it (let alone the departure it has been from the rest of the series).

[Cadence of the Planes]

Your example is again nonsensical because it assume that that this forum is a bastion for ending-haters.

Incorrect - I made no such assumption - I merely stated that an online poll is not a statistically sound RANDOM SAMPLE. 

....though judging by the amount of threads bashing the ending, it would hardly be "nonsensical" even if I had made that claim.

Modifié par Cadence of the Planes, 22 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[Cadence of the Planes]

Zwei133 wrote...

The forums are skewed, I hate to admit. I only joined them to report some bugs and get involved with the ending fiasco. I didn't bother joining for ME1/2 or DA because I was satisfied with the products. I am sure that those who are unhappy are more likely to vote and be vocal than those that are ambivalent or at least not-unhappy. I strongly doubt people can be genuinely happy with the ending due to the technical issues with it (let alone the departure it has been from the rest of the series).

Agreed. 

[Bcoolpro]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Bcoolpro wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

I'm terrified that we're just going to get "explanation" content rather than new endings. That's not enough for me (or for a very large number of Bioware's customers).

According
to a EA press release on march 12th " ME3 sold
890,000 copies during the first 24 hours it was on sale in North America."
 The poll you site doesn't represent "a large number" just yet...
neither does the petition... given the number of games already sold worldwide it's still a little early to be talking about large numbers
at least statically speaking.

Considering that most statistical graphs for behavioural patterns of millions of people are done using much much smaller samples, I fail to see how you can dismiss the sample as being too small...

Interesting - as someone well acquainted with statistical analysis, I'll puy my two cents in.

I don't at all believe the sample was small, but it was beyond a shadow of a doubt misrepresentative. Statistical studies for behavioral patterns that are to have any credence in publication take RANDOM POPULATION SAMPLES to build their data sets. 

I could make a "I ME3 Ending" website, create a poll there, and have all the site visitors vote. I may get thousands of votes, but would that make my sampling legitimate? No - it would be biased, nonrandom sample biased towards those inclined to visit the website.

Your example is again nonsensical because it assume that that this forum is a bastion for ending-haters.

That wasn't the point.  Cadence of the Planes was merely pointing out that
there are certain controls that need to be in place for a poll to be considered
statistically viable... as far as I know no such a controled resurch study hasn't been conducted.

Modifié par Bcoolpro, 22 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[Zwei133]

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

Zwei133 wrote...

The forums are skewed, I hate to admit. I only joined them to report some bugs and get involved with the ending fiasco. I didn't bother joining for ME1/2 or DA because I was satisfied with the products. I am sure that those who are unhappy are more likely to vote and be vocal than those that are ambivalent or at least not-unhappy. I strongly doubt people can be genuinely happy with the ending due to the technical issues with it (let alone the departure it has been from the rest of the series).

Agreed. 

I also think there is some misunderstanding of your Michelangelo reference.  I believe you are saying no one questioned his artistic integrity when he delivered a product to the specificications of his client.

That is all we are asking BioWare to do; meet the specifications they themselves put forth.  It is no the fault of the client (in this case fan/consumer) that the artist (BioWare) did not meet the agreed upon specifications.  There is a great thread detailing why this is true: http://social.biowar...ndex/10405204/1.

[karek]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Bcoolpro wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

I'm terrified that we're just going to get "explanation" content rather than new endings. That's not enough for me (or for a very large number of Bioware's customers).

According
to a EA press release on march 12th " ME3 sold
890,000 copies during the first 24 hours it was on sale in North America."
 The poll you site doesn't represent "a large number" just yet...
neither does the petition... given the number of games already sold worldwide it's still a little early to be talking about large numbers
at least statically speaking.

Considering that most statistical graphs for behavioural patterns of millions of people are done using much much smaller samples, I fail to see how you can dismiss the sample as being too small...

Interesting - as someone well acquainted with statistical analysis, I'll puy my two cents in.

I don't at all believe the sample was small, but it was beyond a shadow of a doubt misrepresentative. Statistical studies for behavioral patterns that are to have any credence in publication take RANDOM POPULATION SAMPLES to build their data sets. 

I could make a "I ME3 Ending" website, create a poll there, and have all the site visitors vote. I may get thousands of votes, but would that make my sampling legitimate? No - it would be biased, nonrandom sample biased towards those inclined to visit the website.

Your example is again nonsensical because it assume that that this forum is a bastion for ending-haters.

It's not so much actually as it assumes it's a bastion of people who are motivated enough by content in the game to actively discuss or revile it. As in It's a bastion for people who have a strong opinion that they want to make heard specifically in this case that lends itself to displeasure with part of the game.

Just like you're less likely to complain or get up in arms if you liked what you got. That being said though it's also the primary soundingboard for design decisions and feedback which in part validates(through a slight lense) the general consensus of the forum which is "We(a lot of us) largely don't like the ending". What's important here isn't the proportion or statistic or whatever stupid nonsense we're arguing about now. It's the message represented there-in and the fact that there is a very large proportion of motivated users that are upset.

[Sir Fluffykins]

I find most people here are sensible actually, they put their arguments forward and type decent thought-out responces to others comments. I just wish the upset guys didn't use Dr Muzyka's statement as an excuse to attack/insult/vent-on him or others because of the PR speak.

I didn't like the ending but I see the PR speak as normal "being diplomatic". He's taken the time to acknowledge those commenting and though I understand making indirect comments like "for those that need MORE closure" upsets people (perfect game and ending instead of closing the story blew it to bits ), please don't lose your temper, because I find most people here appear intelligent and I'd hate to see someone banned cause they're heated up at the non-definite statements. When we're getting statements at all tells me Bioware at least cares enough.

I've heard 3 times now that something will be said in April, maybe it'll be big, maybe it'll be pointlessly small. I'll have to wait and see.

[karek]

Zwei133 wrote...

The forums are skewed, I hate to admit. I only joined them to report some bugs and get involved with the ending fiasco. I didn't bother joining for ME1/2 or DA because I was satisfied with the products. I am sure that those who are unhappy are more likely to vote and be vocal than those that are ambivalent or at least not-unhappy. I strongly doubt people can be genuinely happy with the ending due to the technical issues with it (let alone the departure it has been from the rest of the series).

See the reason Political parties exist sadly. The bias inherent there is part of the human condition when there are visible sides of an issue.

[NOD-INFORMER37]

Why dont we just take all that money put toward the "Retake ME3" movement and use it to make our own ending? xP

[Cadence of the Planes]

You're AGAIN assuming that because the majority here feels one way that it isn't representitive of the entire community. Don't say you're not making those assertions then do it again in the same post.

*Groan* 

OF COURSE the bioware threads do not represent the entire community..it isn't a random sample  - it consists of only the most vocal/ passionate ones that bother to post on the forums. You assuming that this forum IS representative of everyone who played the game is statistically unsound.

Now, I don't have the time or will to further your edification on the nuances of statistical analysis and sample-collecting, so write your response such that you don't feel as if you've lost the online argument. I'm moving on.


**
Now, back to the talk about artisitic integrity: Video Games (especially RPGs) are a still-emerging artistic medium wherein which the patrons/players have a highly invested/ interactive role in the narrative- almost to the point where many take a type of ownership based on the choices made to shape the story. 

Here we see an extreme example of this - where the gamers are pushing to shape the story into more than what it currently is. I still don't see how that detracts from the game's artistic integrity, as much as indicate a new step in the evolution of the artistic medium.

Modifié par Cadence of the Planes, 22 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Montcristo]

First of all Mass Effect 3 is an epic game until the 10 minutes. I say the last 10 minutes because the ending is incomplete, they don´t need to change it they just need to add it more "juice" and personaly I think Bioware already know that. ´The fans they are not all blaming Bioware or saying they suck, because that´s not true Bioware have created the best triology i ever seen in videogames history. The fans are just sad because this is not the ending this game deserves. And the fans just want to make their point and try to make the game better, because they know that Bioware is problably one of the only companies who take the gamers opinions in count. That´s a wonderful thing and that´s is what make Mass Effect word so great because is not just Bioware and EA that make the game is also us the gammers who stay hours playing try to make better decisions because we know that this will make a diference, we try hard to make better. And the final of ME3 didn´t had that and its like everything we did in last 2 games was forgotten. I belive that Bioware will ear us and give us the better solution as they allways had.

[Getorex]

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

You're AGAIN assuming that because the majority here feels one way that it isn't representitive of the entire community. Don't say you're not making those assertions then do it again in the same post.

*Groan* 

OF COURSE the bioware threads do not represent the entire community..it isn't a random sample  - it consists of only the most vocal/ passionate ones that bother to post on the forums. You assuming that this forum IS representative of everyone who played the game is statistically unsound.

Now, I don't have the time or will to further your edification on the nuances of statistical analysis and sample-collecting, so write your response such that you don't feel as if you've lost the online argument. I'm moving on.


**
Now, back to the talk about artisitic integrity: Video Games (especially RPGs) are a still-emerging artistic medium wherein which the patrons/players have a highly invested/ interactive role in the narrative- almost to the point where many take a type of ownership based on the choices made to shape the story. 

Here we see an extreme example of this - where the gamers are pushing to shape the story into more than what it currently is. I still don't see how that detracts from the game's artistic integrity, as much as indicate a new step in the evolution of the artistic medium.

Yes.  And Amazon is horribly skewed too no doubt.  It is EXACTLY the same as these forums.  You can believe user reviews on Amazon for MOST items, just not Mass Effect 3.  User reviews in ALL media where it is allowed reams the ME3 ending.  ALL of them, including those online mags with "professional reviews" that give 4 or 5 out of 5 star ratings...the USERS posting are VERY heavily skewed the other way.  In ALL cases.  But that is all just false and abnormally biased...only for ME3.  

[TryckSh0t]

Dr. Muzyka,

I, also, greatly appreciate the hard work and effort the Mass Effect team put into this amazing trilogy. I can honestly say, without question, Mass Effect is one of the greatest series I have had the pleasure of playing. I believe the fan reaction to the endings is proof positive that the Mass Effect team at BioWare accomplished something beyond amazing, as I have never seen a group of gamers more passionate about anything. I also understand what the team was trying to accomplish with the ending of Mass Effect 3, but we were promised closure and an end to Shepard's story, which is what we were expecting. The ending created more questions than provided answers, and left Shepard and his Team dangling out there in nothingness. All that being said, I still have the utmost respect and admiration for the Mass Effect team, they crafted a world and a story that rivals the best science fiction has to offer, and I thank them for the countless hours I spent lost in that world. All I would ask for in the way of closure is in regards to Shepard's team. I don't expect to know, right away, if the Turian and Krogan alliance stayed strong, or what the situation on Rannoch is like 100 years in the future, those things can wait for Mass Effect 4. But, if Shepard did survive the events on the Citadel, what happened to him? What happened to Garrus, Liara, and Williams? If Shepard is alive, did he reunite with Tali (insert other LI here)? I think these are the questions the ending posed that upset me the most. I was led to believe that this would be the end of Shepard's story, but it's apparent that there's much more to tell. I thank you for taking such a personal interest in the events, and I apologize if I, personally, ever presented myself in a destructive or overly critical way. That was never my intention, because Mass Effect has been a great journey, but the ending failed to deliver on what I was told to expect.

Respectfully,
TryckSh0t

[SalsaDMA]

I find the assumption that both this website as well as amazon are 'non-neutral samples' as being ludicrous.

amazon are by its very nature as neutral as you can get in sample taking, and if anything, this website should have had its reactions considered as being on the 'pro-side', considered it's the de-facto place to go if you want to discuss Bioware and their products in a favorable light or hope for fan-dev interaction.

That both sites should a large slanting towards the negative in regards to the products quality versus what was advertised is damning about the slam to the rep Bioware is getting these days.

I also am fully under the asumption that nobody at Bioware would have cared one twig about the customers perceivence of the quality of the game if money weren't hurting now in some way. Either through loss of rep inflicting harm on future titles/distribution-negotations or direct affectance of current sales.

Finally.. I have a hard time seeing someone being proud of artistic integrity when the product being discussed contains poorly photoshopped images pulled directly from the web. It just doesn't fly with me, tbh.

[Cadence of the Planes]

Yes.  And Amazon is horribly skewed too no doubt.  It is EXACTLY the same as these forums.  You can believe user reviews on Amazon for MOST items, just not Mass Effect 3.  User reviews in ALL media where it is allowed reams the ME3 ending.  ALL of them, including those online mags with "professional reviews" that give 4 or 5 out of 5 star ratings...the USERS posting are VERY heavily skewed the other way.  In ALL cases.  But that is all just false and abnormally biased...only for ME3.  

Writing in satirical hyperbole doesn't extend the legitimacy of your actual statement.

There are numerous online mediums- and the people who are more passionate about the ending tend to vote in online polls, post on forums, start petitions, report Bioware to the FTC, etc etc etc