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To Mass Effect 3 players, from Dr. Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare


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#1351
SalsaDMA

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bigstig wrote...

venom56321489 wrote...

I AM STILL DEBATING RETURNING MY ME3. I WANT A NEW ENDING NOT JUST EXTRA EXPLANATION. IF THEY WANT TO STAND BY THEIR ART AND STAND BY ENDING THEY CAN BE STARVING ARTISTS BECAUSE ILL BE OUT, NOT ANOTHER PENNY FROM ME. AND I AM SURE MANY OTHER FANS WILL LEAVE AS WELL. THEY SEEM TO HAVE LOST TOUCH SINCE DA2.


Returning the game seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me - yes the endings were well we know what the endings were so I won't go into it. However by returning the game you are damning yourself to that conclusion to that finish. 

At least wait until April @ Pax then make up your mind


Wouldn't that move you out of the reasonable time allowed by distribution chains to return the product? ;)

If anything, returning the product to show your displeasure at getting a different product than what you were led to believe, and THEN purchasing it again IF they actually fixed the product to match what they said it would be, should be the right course of action.

It evne has an inherent punish/reward mechanism in it.
Don't fix: get a slap over the wrist by consumers.
Fix it: get rewarded by consumers actually purchasing the product again.

Or are you living in some weird alternate dimension where people cannot buy stuff later on?

#1352
SirPetrakus

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People here tend to forget that being dissatisfied with a product or service is your God given right. If you are unhappy with something, you will demand getting something, the value of which you paid your hard earned money for, as compensation.

If I buy a lawnmower, that cuts the grass perfectly, but ultimately burns whats left of the grass in my yard, when I was promised by the manufacturer it won't, I will not take it just because it was the designing teams artistic vision that all grass should be burned. I will demand something be done with it.

If I go eat at a dinner, order for the double sized burger and come up with a thin slice of bacon between two buns, I will not take flak for arguing with the cook over his artistic vision over what a double sized burger should be. He will cook me a new one that corresponds to what was promised to me and what I paid for.

If I go to a movie theater and did not enjoy the movie I watched, I can, after the movie's end, ask for a refund for a product I did not enjoy and had no control over. I will not have to argue with the movie's director over his crappy sense of artistic vision.

In cases of some movies, I think it happened with 'The Devil's Own', the entire ending was changed after a test screening showed that if Harrison Ford shot Brad Pitt, people would not like or go see the movie, which was the movie's original ending. It's not what the audience signed on for. Would there be people that would have liked to see Brad Pitt get shot by Harrison Ford? Yes! I would like to see it, because I don't particularly like Brad Pitt and would enjoy the heck out of seeing Han Solo shoot that pretty boy. The new endings works just as well, if not better, and more people got what they wanted.

The thing with ME3 is that you sign up for both a product and an online service. Its main goal is to appeal to the masses. Most of the game is very entertaining, despite being heavily bugged and everything seems to come together, except the lazy ending. 1 frigging cutscene that shows the exact same thing, regardless of choice, but with a different color. We demand to be shown substantial differentiation between the endings.That's what we were promised, that's not what we got.

People that are upset over the endings, do not want to send the game for a refund because they actually are happy with the overall gaming experience they got, minus the endings. They like the game and they would like to keep it, but they will, if they continue to be dissatisfied with the product. And that would be much, much worse for everyone involved. What they want is for BioWare to keep their promise. Regardless of whether you like the ending or not, you have to agree that the promises that were made, were not kept. This is non negotiable.

If you are OK with BioWare doing this, then you are basically telling each and every developer/publisher that it is OK for them to blatantly lie to you and mislead you about their products, in order to maximize their profits at the expense of your finance, entertainment and invested time. This is what we're fighting for. We're not fighting just for us, we're not fighting just for ME3, we're doing this for the sake of every game to be made and we're doing this for you, who actually liked the ending, so that next time, when it does affect you, you won't have to go through this, just like we did.

#1353
DJBare

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I agree, votes on individual website are easily skewed, but how about more than one..

Polls
Poll About Your reaction on Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement on 21st March 2012
Poll About The Ending
'Official' Poll For Mass Effect 3 Ending DLC
[POLL] What exactly would you change with the ending?
GameFaqs poll
Facebook, Retake ME3

I'm sure you statistical experts can make something of those, there is bias in the list a give because 4 of them are the social bioware network.

In the end, it's not the numbers that have been counting, but the margin, I find it difficult to believe anyone could ignore the extreme margins in these votes.

Modifié par DJBare, 22 mars 2012 - 08:33 .


#1354
Kalas82

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While the ME-Series and it`s creators are something that i`m realy happy about..perhaps the only game-franchise i call my self a fan fo...you can`t explain this ending with "art" and keep a straight face.
If still do hope that this was all planned and there`s sense in this....i realy do..don`t kill of this franchise like that, there are so few good sci-fi-games out here...pretty please?

#1355
ile_1979

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Heliosas wrote...

venom56321489 wrote...

I JUST FEAR BIOWARE IS HEADED TO A MORE FIRST PERSON SHOOTER GENRE. ME3 HAD LESS DIALOGUE, HAD MULTIPLAYER. AND THEIR IPAD GAME IS JUST STRAIGHT FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. THEY SEEM TO WANT TO COPY COD MORE SHOOTER, LESS STORY. BIOWARE MIGHT BE LOSING THEIR TOUCH OR SELLING OUT.


ME3 didn't have less dialogue. It had about the same amount as the other games that you had a say in..and then more dialogue that you had no choice in. You could also badger a character for more talk. Like Garrus actually had several things to say each time you approched him between missions. Rather than just, 'can it wait? I need to make some calibrations'.

I agree Bioware seem to be losing sight of their roots though. Not sure if this is the EA taint seeping through, or just the way of things. These days it is all about pleasing the masses, and the masses want dumbed down easy-mode games that require no thought. You only need to look at the 'option' in ME3 to turn off having to make decisions...because apparently *some* players don't want to think for themselves, they just want to shoot ****.


Dude it's called monologue. Dialogue would be if you actually had something to tell Garus too...

#1356
Stigweird85

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I have the collectors edition which is very much in limited supply. I mentioned it elsewhere and in my sig below I trust Bioware this int the end one way or another Mass Effect will continue

#1357
Getorex

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I don't think the social network can be claimed to bias anything but mass effect fans. The fans are made up of anti-ending peeps and pro-ending peeps (and some neutrals). There is nothing inherent about this site that selects FOR anti-ending people.

There's no mechanism for it.

#1358
canestim

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I haven't played ME3 yet (waiting for face import fix) so I can't comment on how I feel about the ending but I will say that this letter is exactly what I needed to hear and I appreciate Dr. Ray Muzyka taking the time to respond. Just the thought of there being new full games is exciting to me and them taking the criticism from the fans to make things better is great in my opinion. No it can't be changed but they can do things to help fans with their stories and it seems they really want to please the fans. The Mass Effect series is the greatest ever in my opinion, never want that universe/series to end.

#1359
DC111

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Getorex wrote...

Back on thread. I have an observation that, to the best of my knowledge, no one else has put forward. It is yet another dashing of hope that Bioware claims their disjointed and hopelessly broken and illogical ending provides.

Let's turn our attention to stargazer at the very very ass end of the ending. There's the DEEPLY inbred stargazer telling Shepard stories to his even more deeply inbred...grandson? Whatever, after a certain level of inbreeding does it really matter anymore? Anywho...there's stargazer with the freak kid. Kid asks stargazer "what will I find if I ever go out in space?" Stargazer goes on about how many stars and planets there are, how there may be (I would like to emphasize the word "MAY") different civilizations on these worlds, etc.

Wait a minute! Hold the phone! Who got out of the crashed Normandy?! I'd SWEAR I saw ALIENS. I saw a Garrus, at least. Some saw Liara. Perhaps others saw Tali. All of them are ALIENS. Why the hell did the kid need to ask "what will I find" when they already KNOW what they'd find? Turians, Quarians, Asari at the very least because they were with the original crew! But wait! The kid is asking! THAT means that, as per logic, the planet is clearly not compatible with Turian or Quarian so Garrus and Tali died VERY shortly after the crash landing. HAPPY ENDING! There's some hope! OK, well, Liara should have then been fine, surely? If the planet is compatible with humans, it must be compatible with Asari AND Liara was the ONLY species in the whole batch who could mate with ANYONE. There SHOULD be Asari girls running around all over the place in stargazer's time! But there aren't because the kid had to ask and stargazer had to say their MIGHT be all kinds of other civilizations out there. Get the drift?

The crew of the Normandy crashed, the aliens on the crew are all LONG dead and gone (Garrus and Tali were screwed from day one anyway because they were solo...no one to mate with...AND the planet couldn't be compatible with BOTH human/Asari and Turian/Quarian. Just can't.). Apparently Liara didn't fare well either (she CAN live thousands of years remember AND mate with anyone).

Too bad, so sad. No hope on planet Incest to be found.

The end MUST be completely FIXED. There is no "hope" in it at all.



Very good!

I thought I picked it apart.. but stopped at the Mass Relay implosion/destruction
of multiple systems.    In short, thanks.  It hurts so much
because they (Bioware) did such a great job building the world of ME 
through ME1,ME2 and 99% of ME3.     This is just one more thing
for them to 'Fix'.

Modifié par DC111, 22 mars 2012 - 08:51 .


#1360
DC111

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Not sure what happened with my earlier post ... perhaps Reaper control?
Never mind... I was able to fix it with edit /Paragon trigger.

Ok. .. . Time to step away for a second.   Peace and Love all.

Modifié par DC111, 22 mars 2012 - 08:53 .


#1361
Mappies

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Fact: I LOVE Mass Effect.
Fact: I'm a ME 1&2 replay junkie.
Fact: I hate the end of ME3.

The endings are just well...it's all a bit Kobayashi Maru. And frankly me (my Shep and a certain starship captain) don't believe in unwinable scenarios.

In many ways Bioware should be massively proud - the only reason people are so passionate about 'hating' the ending is because the writers have managed to make us fully invested in the game and series and really care abut what happens to Shepard and the crew. BUT it just isn't logical in a lot of ways (whilst I'm no Einstein I'm not a dummie and frankly I just don't get it)

I'll get over it...eventually. But in the meantime if Dr Ray and co are going to give us some clarity via dlc then I say bring it on. It'll be easier to accept the endings IF they make sense against the rest of the game narrative.

#1362
Jebediah Springfield

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Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually. And I didn't really like the advertisement for dlc at the end of the game. Seemed pretty cheap. Remove that. I'm going to write a full review for this game.

#1363
ile_1979

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Jebediah Springfield wrote...

Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually. And I didn't really like the advertisement for dlc at the end of the game. Seemed pretty cheap. Remove that. I'm going to write a full review for this game.


Asimov? Man, one Asimov fan to antoher, which part of the ending actually does remind you of which Asimov book? :innocent:

#1364
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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ile_1979 wrote...

Jebediah Springfield wrote...

Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually. And I didn't really like the advertisement for dlc at the end of the game. Seemed pretty cheap. Remove that. I'm going to write a full review for this game.


Asimov? Man, one Asimov fan to antoher, which part of the ending actually does remind you of which Asimov book? :innocent:


That's what I'm wondering. I've read everything Asimov and see no similarities to any of his work.

#1365
ElMuchu

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On my side, I like very much this game, probably more than ME2 and ME1 until the apparition of the starchild. I feel depressed because our choices do not really mater and also because of the endings range.
What I would like to see is simply the same kind of possibilities than ME2 endings:
- a happy one where we are living (at a cost: Mordin is dead, Legion is dead, Thane is dead, maybe Tali too) with some of the crew members
- a middle one where we did not completely succeed (like the current ME3 endings): relays explode, synthetic beings are killed....
- a sad one where Shepard sacrifies itself and everybody comes back to middle age.
I will not be satisfied by just the addition of new explanation on plot holes. I want our choices to have a positive or negative influence on the endings and to have the possibility to kick Reapers ass as promised during trailers and interviews.
For this point, have you noticed that on the contrary to ME1 and ME2 we do not talk with Hartbinger? Strange isn'it? I miss this dialogue (for instance, when Hartbinger tells Shepard that he is a bactery).

Bioware, please listen their fans and customers until the end and do not choose easiest solution: do not only provide further explanations on current endings. We will be even more disappointed. Once agin, I repeat, except the end, I like this game, probably the best I ever played with the other ones of Mass Effect series. That is why reactions are so strong.

#1366
Getorex

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BrotherWarth wrote...

ile_1979 wrote...

Jebediah Springfield wrote...

Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually. And I didn't really like the advertisement for dlc at the end of the game. Seemed pretty cheap. Remove that. I'm going to write a full review for this game.


Asimov? Man, one Asimov fan to antoher, which part of the ending actually does remind you of which Asimov book? :innocent:


That's what I'm wondering. I've read everything Asimov and see no similarities to any of his work.


Asimov would NEVER have written text that contradicted what he had previously written in the very same novel.  He would not have (and never did) write objectively self-contradictory stories.  

#1367
scomoletti

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 Someone posted that Ray's response felt hollow.. I tend to agree.. it's like the pr/legal team pulling the strings of autoray because they had no choice but to address the issue given all the negative press/feedback. 

What also bothered me is the repeated references to 'artistic integrity'. He says it 3 times (not counting the 'artistic choices of the devs' comment). If their artistic depth consists of the colors red, blue, and green..well.. I know monkeys and elephants that can do better than that. Based on their past works with ME, ME2, and yes, most of ME3 I also know they have more depth than this..which is why the ending is so difficult to accept. Not to mention that you wouldn't break the 'artistic integrity of the developers' by simply providing a little closure at the end via the DAO style callouts and cutting that god awful gilligans island scene for the normady.

So please drop the pr..drop the legal response..man up and admit the ending sucked, made no sense, was inconsistent with the rest of that game and the previous 2 before it then tell us you get it without trying to distract us with the critics paid review scores. If you can't do that much then all you do is prove to us you still don't get it (or don't care..which I really hope isn't the case). 

Also understand we say these things because we do respect the devs and the bioware team..we love ME (and the other titles as well for most of us)..we wouldnt be here reading or posting if we did not. This is why we hope you will listen..because we are your greatest fans. 

Modifié par scomoletti, 22 mars 2012 - 09:24 .


#1368
Vulcan101

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Well done.

1 acknowledging there is a problem.

2 commitmiting to solve the problem with additional content which is specifically created to address player concerns.

3 Those who hate the ending should see this as the first step to getting what they want.( closure, explanations, happy endings". bioware is at least open to admitting the need to change.

4 however, i think many fans will wish to see specific content commitments and also an explanation for the endings - they just appear so lacking in quality as compared the rest of the game and series.

5 Well done for creating games like scientific investigation, this is a self- corrective method for error and ignorance.

6 the suggestions by fans on how to improve and expand the ending are generally excellent ( it would be to your strength to implement them.)

However: despite the issues with the ending there are quite a few problems with the game ( face import, in game bugs, journal, animations, a patch is required.)

Despite the many ( fixable faults) mass effect 3 is a hugely enjoyable game which I hope to play more, if these issues are addressed.

#1369
lexsuprema

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"...play the game, finish it and tell us what you think."

I'll do that, right after I'm able to import MY Shepard!  Please tell me they're not going to change the ending before I even have a chance to experience it for myself.  Really hoping that face patch comes out soon!

#1370
Jills Toy

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Thanks Dr. Ray and Chris, I truly, truly enjoyed the game and have started a new game without my import, just to see the different reactions/characters and plot directions. I had no face import problem. My ME2 Sheppard looked pretty much like the one I crafted for that game when I imported into ME3. I'm not a multiplayer person so I'm interested in how to increase my readiness rating above 50%. Look forward to an answer.

I will say this, ME3 is the best game you have delivered in my opinion (couldn't stop playing) and the endings available are still left for me to explore and hopefully achieve. Once I investigate all the possible LIs, I'll go for every ending I can.

And in closing, please continue with the ME franchise. Thats a large galaxay with plenty left to explore!

#1371
Accism

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Jebediah Springfield wrote...

Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually.


Why would Asimov inspired be a good thing? Mass Effect has always been more in the fantasy space opera/Star Wars tradition, I'm not sure the high concept hard scifi of Asimov really fits with the setting at all. The option of an unambiguous "f*** yeah, we did it!" ending more like Return of the Jedi would have been more appropriate.

#1372
Rache123

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ok I confess to being quite deflated in the end, I felt like I'd lost good friends but I guess that just means you guys and girls at Bioware did a great job with the character development.   I've enjoyed the games from the beginning and I think they should be proud of what they have achieved.  It saddens me that the staff have had to put up with abuse on various websites, it's uncalled for and totally unproductive.  I think they have listened to fans in the past - case in point many gamers found traipsing around in the mako a bit of a chore in ME1 and scanning planets for resources in ME2 rather tedious (sorry, but it REALLY was), consequently to a great extent they were scrapped in the next installments.  I admit I wanted a happy ending (yeah I can hear the groans from here, apparently we're not supposed to say that out loud).   Don't think the following are spoilers - I'll let the moderators decide (hi)  - but I wanted someone to find Shepard in the rubble, perhaps revisit him in a cut scene a few months later, battle weary but alive and recouped enough for one last intimate interaction with his LI (if romanced) or at least reunite with his remaining squad (ok its a bit girley but I'm ok with that). I acknowledge that ME has such a wide fan base that encompassing everyone's wish list would be a mammouth task but these are just my personal thoughts........Anyway this is becoming a bit of an epic so suffice to say that when Bioware release their next game whether is be MASS EFFECT 4 (she says optimistically) or an enitrely new game, I'll be in the front of the queue the day it's released because I am that confident that you guys can still deliver - you are all very talented.  oh just one more thing I think the way you handled the ahem "romance" aspect of the game was very tasteful and beautifully scripted.    ok I'll stop now.  x

#1373
Teelana

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The whole game was really fun to play, until it came to the ending.

I'm sorry, to say it, but i think its one of the worst game endings i've ever seen.
I'm also really sad about the fact, that Harbinger, Shepard's main antagonist in ME2 doesn't even get one appearance, where Shepard really adresses it/him in ME3

#1374
ile_1979

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Accism wrote...

Jebediah Springfield wrote...

Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually.


Why would Asimov inspired be a good thing? Mass Effect has always been more in the fantasy space opera/Star Wars tradition, I'm not sure the high concept hard scifi of Asimov really fits with the setting at all. The option of an unambiguous "f*** yeah, we did it!" ending more like Return of the Jedi would have been more appropriate.


Worry not, that dude has not read Asimove, Herbert, Simmons or Clarke.....or if he has, he's just throwing it blindly :P

#1375
Jebediah Springfield

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Asimov - The Last Question

Not saying it is as good as Asimov, just reminds me of that story. Video games are at a point where they are close to cinematic quality. Books are a whole other level, as it often takes an entire lifetime to create a masterpiece. One of the problems video games face is that there are too many people giving advice, and time is compressed into a small slot. And some of the voices do not live up to necessary critical standards for a masterpiece. This is what is happening, people really wanted a masterpiece of a video game, but few even know what the standard for that would even be. People are unhappy because they received an ending that should force them to think. But people don't want to be forced to think. They want disneyfied endings and plastic smiling faces. Well, just watch Avatar. But that happy ending is much darker than anyone realizes. If the 'fans' of Mass Effect win and get a disneyfied ending what will happen is a story of humans winning no matter what. It will deny that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It will be the Illusive Man position only with a phantasmagoria of happy images. And so much darker because few can see the negative. One cannot possess world ending technology, or here universe ending technology, and continue to exist without the weight of fear over the world ending. Science Fiction stories are always the story of current conditions, and to what end they project us if we do not cut off the path immediately.

There is a bit of a Freudian slip in the Mass Effect marketing. It says Take Earth Back. Grammar would suggest Take Back Earth as the proper phase, as to take something back implies a characteral denial of current conditions to go into the fantasy of a past. The ending was suggested in the marketing. There is lots to think about with this game.