2054 réponses à ce sujet

[Jebediah Springfield]

The Asimov influence is also there in the first and second games. Remember the first conversation withthe reapers? That was the darkest part of the entire series. Perhaps it is Asimov influenced by way of Battlestar Galactica influenced. It is confused because video games are somewhat confused in their story telling.

Whoever you are, do not make condescending remarks about me not reading science fiction because I have a different understanding from yours. I have not seen your library so I will not condescend, I would expect the same from you.

[MikeC99]

Jebediah Springfield wrote...

Just finished the game. Thought the ending was quite excellent. Very Asimov inspired. Bioware needs to be careful about writing too much to the fans, that was one problem with the game actually. And I didn't really like the advertisement for dlc at the end of the game. Seemed pretty cheap. Remove that. I'm going to write a full review for this game.

Re  the ending in itself: matter of opinion, and as opinion has validity. As a single ending ie without taking into account the repeated nature of the three endings, I thought it was cinematically very good. It's the logic of how it sits within the framework of the game that most folks critical of the ending feel is lacking. Well, that and the plot non-sequiters in terms of team mates etc.

Re Bioware need to be careful: absolutely agree. I've said before that I really hope Bioware stick to their artistic guns in creating the character/ nature of ending they want. 'Bittersweet' was in fact the Bioware word. Great - I have no problem with that. I really would NOT want Bioware to some some Disney-esque version because they got that that's what folks want. Look - I'm happy to not get what I want, but I'm not happy with something that on objective critical view is flawed, and that fails to deliver, in fact delivers the antithesis, of one of its central creeds: choice = consequence. And it's naive to interpret the pick A, B or C ending as choice=consequence. Yes, of course it does, but completely divorced as it is from the previous choice= consequence framework you have participated in, spent money on, and a whole lot of hours on ... no, not good enough.

In the absence of clear words from Bioware - and understandable I would argue - lots of folks haven't played yet, and if they just came out and said "Hey, we're going to change this to this, and that to that ..."- well, why would you buy a copy to play now, and why would you replay to an end where you know what happens? Bioware are in a very difficult place, but with all respect, whether this was just poor story-boarding, or a 'too clever for words' way to segueway into an always anticpated dlc ending, this is of their own doing.

I abhor the ranters and derogatory language; I also think it's way too easy to jump to conspiracy theories - but in vacuums of knowledge (see "this is their own doing") this is what happens.

It's not elitest, or fanboy entitlement gone haywire. I'm 59 this year, have job, kids blah blah. But I also have spent a lot of time critiquing poetry, prose, scientific and technical works. It's not about if I LIKE the ending or not - I will openly accept whatever the author deems to be the denouement he/she requires. But I also know it's OK to love something that's poorly crafted (hey, think MacDonalds!), and heartily loathe something that's good. And yes I really hope Bioware are careful, and work their way through the differences between like/hate and well/ poorly crafted and give us something well constructed, consistent with the internal logic established in all three games (up to the very end of ME3), and absent of the continuity faux pas as currently exist. I will be satisfied with a non-happy ending; satisfied with not having everything answered - but only if the non-answering is logical within the context of the game, not as a means to sweep shoddy plot links under the radar.

And advertise dlc at end of game: not a good call I agree; but not a hangable offence. Well, not where i live, anyway!!!!

cheers
MikeC

[YuniSticksitDeep]

    "As co-founder and GM of BioWare, I’m very
proud of the ME3 team; I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the best
work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback
from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their
expectations. Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the
high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we
need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility."
 
The Part where he says "high ratings from critics" IE 10/10 scores  begins sadly the part where I know we are forgotten.  
    if one were to go to metacritc and peruse, you would find No games have complete 10/10's EXCEPT when it is Paid Critics. this is without exception, and inarguable, to put "that" out as a statement of how good the game is gives me pause.

I do believe they are listening, but only in the same way I "listen" to a powerful thunderstom.

Were I incharge, I would take an actual poll from fans and ask what the Paying Audience would like.

After all, if one hates the meal, one goes to a Different Restaurant.

And most likely warns their friends away..

Look at "end" of Mass Effect 2, THIS is what got the sales/preorders for Mass Effect 3.    Ask virtually anyone who has played out the Mass Effect 3 ends.  see just what kind of "recommendation for a Mass Effect 4 you will get.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

Hold The Line.

PS please don't ban me for honesty and intellect, I can hide neither.

[dr.frankinfurter]

I didn't really buy the game because I am a PC gamer and I didn't want to deal with Origin. I did, however, get to watch my roommate complete the game on his Xbox and I have to say...

Wow. Just wow. How did you expect gamers to react? Did you really expect everyone to react positively to that? The game looked great, it's a pity that it's being locked in to one crappy platform distribution service. Otherwise, I would buy it. I have no problem pirating the game illegally, I'm just too cautious to do so. I want to go out and buy a game and install it, not deal with a crappy version that is hacked together and is distributed from an unverifiable source. Any way, that's off topic, I'm not here to bash EA's awful decision to pull Mass Effect 3 from Steam and force users to use an inferior product.

I loved the first two Mass Effects. They were great, they really were. But after I watched the ending before I experienced the ME3's story, I don't really want to spend the time playing the third installation if it will ruin my previous experiences with the series.

[Hayes1987]

"if one were to go to metacritc and peruse, you would find No games have
complete 10/10's EXCEPT when it is Paid Critics. this is without
exception, and inarguable, to put "that" out as a statement of how good
the game is gives me pause."

Really? Wow, NO argument. I'd like some kind of proof of that.

[ile_1979]

Jebediah Springfield wrote...

The Asimov influence is also there in the first and second games. Remember the first conversation withthe reapers? That was the darkest part of the entire series. Perhaps it is Asimov influenced by way of Battlestar Galactica influenced. It is confused because video games are somewhat confused in their story telling.

Whoever you are, do not make condescending remarks about me not reading science fiction because I have a different understanding from yours. I have not seen your library so I will not condescend, I would expect the same from you.

Good point there, i guess you did read Asimov. But the Last Question? Just to make sure, you are tlaking about the one when the supercomputers design supercomputers that end up solving the question by designing a new universe?

If i find any resamblance to classic SF, it's maybe a bit of Childhood's End, and quite a bit of Fall of Hyperion. But The last question?

Modifié par ile_1979, 22 mars 2012 - 10:08 .

[Nerevar-as]

ile_1979 wrote...

Good point there, i guess you did read Asimov. But the Last Question? Just to make sure, you are tlaking about the one when the supercomputers design supercomputers that end up solving the question by designing a new universe?

If i find any resamblance to classic SF, it's maybe a bit of Childhood's End, and quite a bit of Fall of Hyperion. But The last question?

Why? The only thing I see in common is an ending that makes what came before seem hopeless. Nothing humanity ever did  mattered as it was just a step prior to the next evolution there, nothing you did to shape the galaxy matters here as any ending destroys galactic society as we know it.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 22 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[Jebediah Springfield]

Very good thoughts MikeC.

ile1979, I should say it is more of a by way of Battlestar Galactica thing. Or it just makes me think of that Asimov story. It's been a while since I've read it but I don't think it's supercomputers, it is essentially harvesting energy, and the ending connects to the origins of the bible. I will find a link for you online if I can.

[ile_1979]

@Jebediah Springfield- No need really, i have it as a part of Robot Dreams. The supercomputers are called Multivacs there. But yes the BSG reference is the strongest from the cultural POV. Still the end of Fall of Hyperion is almost copy pasted (fall of farcaster network, supposed end of the godlike AIs threat).

@Nerevar-as- The human evolution through annihilation is exactly what reminds me of the green ending.

Modifié par ile_1979, 22 mars 2012 - 10:26 .

[Jebediah Springfield]

http://www.multivax....t_question.html

Pretty sure this is the version I read. Skimming through it there looks to be intelligent computers, definitely worth reading again.

And to be clear, there are relevant criticisms of the game and ending. It is a bit confused (I think because video games are still trying to find their storytelling techniques) because there are space opera elements combined with the bleakness of the reapers. A story that is telling us the opposite of what we often think technological singularity is, and also something of a dating sim and role-play of Star Wars. I wonder if people would play the game though, if it were as bleak throughout as a Tarkovsky film.

[Durendal33]

wow yeah..I just finished my play through and I say the ending was..interesting If a little confusing I had not quite expected this ending as it didn't feel quit so satisfying as a closure.But how does one go about ending a game like this? The story is epic and the many branches have to go somewhere.A RPG is a genre that never has enough gameplay and story but I admit i wasn't expecting this at all I mean maybe Joker and EDI get together in the sense of him sticking it in the cockpit but as the adam and eve of a new merged synthetic DNA human species ? Really thats just the strangest thing lol..and what happened to all my squadmates and ppl i knew? Are they dead? I guess so again..I just finished my game 10 minutes ago.Also I was avoiding the news and twitter feeds until i actually finished my game so sorry if i'm late on this "controversy".Also as much as I love Mass Effect and how polished in general the game has become I seriously do not quite know what got into the review people that gave this such high scores compared to the previous two mass effect titles.That in my mind was just a little bit out there.The game is not the complete package it could have been and perhaps should have been.Maybe the critics were just " encouraging"  the creators of the Mass Effect series to please for the love of God not give up on making these heavily branched player driven story RPG's despite the mind numbing hard work that goes into creating them.But thanks anyway bioware you gave me lots of hours of fun and enjoyment.Don't let the criticism get to you too much.People being passionate about the game is only a compliment to how attached ppl are to the character and the story you created and kept us involved for all these years.It was a great ride and im sure some DLC will fill up some of the holes.TBH I was expecting more of a parade and/or enslave the galaxy type ending but yeah that would also have not been very original. EDI and Joker being the organic/synthetic Adam and Eve thats original no matter what ppl say. I also might have more to say about all this after i let things sink in.

[ile_1979]

Jebediah Springfield wrote...

http://www.multivax....t_question.html

Pretty sure this is the version I read. Skimming through it there looks to be intelligent computers, definitely worth reading again.

And to be clear, there are relevant criticisms of the game and ending. It is a bit confused (I think because video games are still trying to find their storytelling techniques) because there are space opera elements combined with the bleakness of the reapers. A story that is telling us the opposite of what we often think technological singularity is, and also something of a dating sim and role-play of Star Wars. I wonder if people would play the game though, if it were as bleak throughout as a Tarkovsky film.

Some would. I think i would and i would be happy with it if i knew what i was playing right from the start. I play Longest Journey right now, with intent to continue with Dreamfall. Good story there, no choices at all really, but it is a point and click adventure not an RPG. I still like my RPGs to take into account my choices. The more interactive the better.

EDIT: But i don't think there would be a big market for it

Modifié par ile_1979, 22 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[Durendal33]

Also this was just on my playthrough so maybe it was different for others , but what on earth got into the age limit people? There was nothing in my game that warrants that 18+ rating I was seriously exited about that rating bc i thought I was going to see some serious alien boobs! But no boobs that I saw.I hope they weren't just being racist and the 18+ was because of the gay marriage/relationship references this is the 21st century for God sakes the game is set even later then that.Besides they are choices ppl make they don't have to get involved with any of it if they don't want too.To give it 18+ bc of Krogan princess is also wrong she was hidden by a kind of burqa and didn't offend anyones sensibilities either i would think to warrant a 18+.Also rather easy way out for you guys no need to invent a female krogan character and what it looks like but yeah.

[GoddessLunatic]

If Bioware is happy with their ending, that is completely fine with me, just as it is fine that some players like it. But they can still release an optional DLC with more endings, including a happy one. That way, the people who want it can get it and those that don't stick with the 'official' ending already included in the game and nobody needs to worry about losing their artistic integrity. AAAAND more money for EA. Everybody wins.

[Diablos2525]

1) Your best game, at least story-wise, ever created is DA:O.

2) You come across as condescending when you point to your perfect 10 reviewer scores.

3) You make the consumers who are complaining ought to be a fringe minority of upset players, when in reality the silent majority who have played games besides #3 agrees with us.


4) Even disregarding the endings, certain aspects of the game feel rushed, such as the sidequests; how you acquire them, how you track them(you don't) etc. The horrible run animations, not being able to holster your weapon, the glitches which have you face the wrong person when talking, the absence of the dialogue wheel in many discussions. The game is good, very good if not for the ending, but it is not perfect and any reviewer who gave it a perfect score has a conflict of interest or is an idiot.

[egorwar4]

AlkaliV21 wrote...

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April."

Why are people still hating on Bioware? They made a few gaming mistakes but for the most part they knocked the Mass Effect series out of the park. I hope that this will make people ease up on all the anger brooding in these forums and on the web.

Totally agree.having loved the series since day one, I can really appreciate all the effort Bioware have put into this awesome series. 35 Hours in and nearing the end, everything is still awesome! Im somewhat apprehensive about the current upcoming ending ill receive, but im hopful that whatever it may be, i'll be compelled to play it through again and look forward to different, perhaps more detailed/in depth ending.Good work Bioware, truley epic so far

[Nerevar-as]

I would settle for an ending that made any sense even if it´s not that happy. IMHO hardly anything makes sense once Harby swoops down.

[chujwamdotego]

GoddessLunatic wrote...

If Bioware is happy with their ending, that is completely fine with me, just as it is fine that some players like it. But they can still release an optional DLC with more endings, including a happy one. That way, the people who want it can get it and those that don't stick with the 'official' ending already included in the game and nobody needs to worry about losing their artistic integrity. AAAAND more money for EA. Everybody wins.

This post is sooooo true!!!

I'll pay Bioware for happy endings (which basically involves Shepard alive and kicking and reunite with LI).

It is going to be win-win situation for all. You sell, I buy. You are happy, I'm happy. My Shepard is the most happy

[Nerevar-as]

Diablos2525 wrote...

1) Your best game, at least story-wise, ever created is DA:O.

2) You come across as condescending when you point to your perfect 10 reviewer scores.

3) You make the consumers who are complaining ought to be a fringe minority of upset players, when in reality the silent majority who have played games besides #3 agrees with us.


4) Even disregarding the endings, certain aspects of the game feel rushed, such as the sidequests; how you acquire them, how you track them(you don't) etc. The horrible run animations, not being able to holster your weapon, the glitches which have you face the wrong person when talking, the absence of the dialogue wheel in many discussions. The game is good, very good if not for the ending, but it is not perfect and any reviewer who gave it a perfect score has a conflict of interest or is an idiot.

Points 2 & 3 remind me of DA2. And we know how that turned out, at least with how well post-release content went. I would hope the ME team had learnt something from them, but so far it seems not.

[FoolFodder]

I've not played the game and some of the assumptions behind this question may be flawed but ...

Don't you pretty much surrender any claims to artistic integrity when you cut someone like that Prothean chap from the game and then charge people extra for it?

[Insane_Ivan]

Take this announcement with a gigantic spoon of salt. It is another PR release designed to disarm the Retake movement. Don't Give in!
Some of My thoughts on this Blog.

-Who are these people that like the ending Ray? This vast Majority you speak of. I want information and Data. I can provide you my Data.

-You guys lost part of your control over your art when you gave us the choices to mold the universe the way we see fit. Three different color endings is not choice!!

-Stop patting yourselves on the back. Kinda makes me nauseous.

-Agreed that you should not allow people to threaten your staff. However Your self congratulatory updates and constant downplaying of this situation is sickening and I can see why people are raging.

-It was close to being a great game. The ending was a betrayal.

-You guys are walking a very fine line. It is Art however it is sold as a Product. Most of us agree that the product was not what was advertised. (There are quotes from your staff to back this claim) I call it a Bait and Switch. I would not be surprised if people actually start up a class action suit (Dumb or Not). Now that would be a hell of a PR mess. (Just to note I would probably not take part in such a lawsuit.)

-Hold The Line

[Hydralysk]

While I appreciate your acknowledgement that people are upset, I'm not sure you realize just why people are actually mad going by your statement.

It's not that we don't understand the ending, most of us can kind of see what you were going for, but the fact of the matter is most people thought the last 10 minutes of mass effect 3 was completely out of whack with the rest of the series. We don't want an explanation on it, and we don't just want a tacked on DA:O epilogue that does nothing to explain away the plot holes and inconsistencies of the end.

This isn't the general ending feedback thread so I won't go into detail, but people aren't happy that you snatched away our ability to chose right at the end. We are mad because now if we ever play ANY game of the trilogy there's niggling voice in our head at every choice going "but it doesn't actually matter in the end" that makes the whole thing seem pointless. We are mad that we are herded into 3 'choices' based on logic that makes no sense to us and that we are not ever given the option to refute. We are mad that the end creates so many plot holes where just 10 minutes prior there were none. We are mad that all our choices seem to do more damage to the galaxy than the reapers ever did.

I can understand being hurt by our criticism, but understand that by ending the series this way you deeply hurt us as well, especially given the multiple statements you as a company gave that specifically said you wouldn't do this. Many people feel genuinely hurt by these endings, some even going to far as to feel physically ill. It says something that you were able to create a universe that people connected to strongly enough to be able to have these responses, that's a great achievement in and of itself, but it should also tell you just how wrong the ending felt for the vast majority of us.

Frankly this feels like a betrayal given the statements I linked above, and many people here are asking how we can trust a company that lied to us. If you leave the endings as is, or just 'explain' it and tack on a 3 minute epilogue, that will be the last straw for a lot of people, myself included.

We WANT to believe you when you say you listen to us, we WANT to believe that you are telling the truth when you tell us our feedback matters to you, but without actions to back it up it just feels like more empty promises. So please, look past the insults that might come your way, look past the pride that you say is injured, and see the fanbase you've cultivated over the past 10 years, fans that desperately want to be able believe in you again. We want Mass Effect to be a series that goes down in history as a success just as much as you do, we love your worlds, we love your characters, we love the dialogue you come up with, but we don't love the last 15 minutes. We're not asking for you to apologize, we just want an alternate ending(s) to this trilogy that we can proudly point to and say "THIS is why I believe Bioware is a great developer, because they always deliever". Please believe me when I say I truly wish for that to happen.

Modifié par Hydralysk, 23 mars 2012 - 01:44 .

[Doveberry]

I thought that the ending was beautiful in its own way, but it was a bit too painful for me. At most, it felt like a microscopic step up from galactic society being completely annihilated. There was no silver lining, and it did not feel like a victory. Not even a tiny one. For that reason, I don't precisely think that the word "bittersweet" is an accurate description of the ending. I only thought it was painfully sad. I think I sniffled pathetically for the better part of an hour once I had finished the game.

I can see the artistic appeal in creating such an ending, but when you make something that is as based around player choice as the Mass Effect series, you may have to sacrifice some of the truly artful ideas you may have for the sake of player choice and variety. The last ten minutes of Mass Effect 3 were all about art. And it was beautiful. Really, truly beautiful. There were some odd mistakes, but the artistic focus of the ending was still beautifully expressed. The problem is simply that while it was very striking and creative, there was little to no player choice involved. This became a bigger problem than expected mostly because Bioware fans are simply not used to being squeezed into a single canon choice. In fact, I expect that for many fans the wide variety of choices in Bioware games is the very thing that brings us back to them over and over again.

At present, I don't know if I'll be able to bring myself to play any of the Mass Effect games again, now that I know what awaits me in the end. But I can't say that I'm upset with Bioware for making the choices that they did. I loved every moment of the many hours I put into playing Mass Effect. The ending may not have been what I would have wanted, but I'm still not sure that I want it changed. This game is someone else's creation, and as a person with many creative interests, it feels strange to me to suggest that Bioware's vision is not "good enough" or that it should be "fixed". On the other hand, I understand that a lot of people see this situation differently, and their opinions are of course equally valid.

Personally, I'm happy subscribing to the indoctrination theory and leaving the ending as it is. That way, the ending can be whatever I want it to be. But then again, when you consider that in order for me to accept the conclusion of the game, I have to pretend that this particular ending never happened, it's probably not entirely unfair to suggest that the ending was at least not satisfactory.

Either way, Bioware is a company that has given me an incredible amount of amazing gaming experiences. I hope that when this issue is resolved, both customers and game designers will feel happy with the result. The message from Ray seemed very heartfelt and understanding towards unhappy fans. Whatever happens, it means a lot to me to see that Bioware are taking this situation so seriously.

Modifié par Doveberry, 22 mars 2012 - 11:25 .

[HolmesLovesGuinness]

Hydralysk wrote...

While I appreciate your acknowledgement that people are upset, I'm not sure you realize just why people are actually mad going by your statement.

It's not that we don't understand the ending, most of us can kind of see what you were going for, but the fact of the matter is most people thought the last 10 minutes of mass effect 3 was completely out of whack with the rest of the series. We don't want an explanation on it, and we don't jsut want a tacked on DA:O epilogue that does nothing to explain away the plot holes and inconsistencies of the end.

This isn't the general ending feedback thread so I won't go into detail, but people aren't happy that you snatched away our ability to chose right at the end. We are mad because now if we ever play ANY game of the trilogy there's niggling voice in our head at every choice going "but it doesn't actually matter in the end" that makes the whole thing seem pointless. We are mad that we are herded into 3 'choices' based on logic that makes no sense to us and that we are not ever given the option to refute. We are made that the end creates so many plot holes where just 10 minutes prior there were none.

I can understand being hurt by our criticism, but understand that by ending the series this way you deeply hurt us as well, especially given the multiple statements you as a company gave that specifically said you wouldn't do this. Many people feel genuinely hurt by these endings, some even going to far as to feel physically ill. It says something that you were able to create a universe that people connected to strongly enough to be able to have these responses, that's a great achievement in and of itself, but it should also tell you just how wrong the ending felt for the vast majority of us.

Frankly this feels like a betrayal given the statements I linked above, and many people here are asking how we can trust a company that lied to us. If you leave the endings as is, or just 'explain' it and tack on a 3 minute epilogue, that will be the last straw for a lot of people, myself included.

We WANT to believe you when you say you listen to us, we WANT to believe that you are telling the truth when you tell us our feedback matters to you, but without actions to back it up it just feels like more empty promises. So please, look past the insults that might come your way, look past the pride that you say is injured, and see the fanbase you've cultivated over the past 10 years, fans that desperately want to be able believe in you again. We want Mass Effect to be a series that goes down in history as a success just as much as you do, we love your worlds, we love your characters, we love the dialogue you come up with, but we don't love the last 15 minutes. We're not asking for you to apologize, we just want an alternate ending(s) to this trilogy that we can proudly point to and say "THIS is why I believe in Bioware is a great developer, because they always deliever". Please believe me when I say I truly wish for that to happen.

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite post in this thread. Very, vey well said, could not agree more.

[Riknas]

Hrmmm. Much as I enjoyed actually playing MassEffect 3,  (Though there were a few points where the game fell a bit flat in the emotion/depth department) I really did feel burned by the ending. Ray Muzyka was right, this is the best game Bioware has made to date, but it doesn't change the fact this was a real slap in the face with the ending, and then a kick in the teeth with the, "Buy our DLC!" after the credits were done rolling.

I'm not too worried about whether or not this was the result of the ending being rewritten for one way or another. If this was a rewrite to combat a leak or another idea, well, I'm not very satisfied with it. If this was the way the game was supposed to end...well, then I think that we were aiming too low to start with then. This is an excellent article about the reasons why the Mass Effect 3 ending feels out of place.

I'm sure (or hoping) Bioware is aware of this article, if they are looking so intently at feedback as Ray Muzyka has said they are.

I've defended Mass Effect several times on supposed plot holes, and have found most of them to be false. Even so, I find that this ending to have several plot holes and contradictory ideas (the "Catalyst, the use of the Illusive Man, and the "colored" endings, to name a few without being spoilery.) That said, if these were not intended to be there, that is the sign of a flaw in the design process. If it was intended to have these holes to be filled in later, I would call that a distressing form of profiteering.


The oft-mentioned various outcomes, the endings that were not "A, B, or C"...that just wasn't true. And the concept of choice that was so frequently mentioned simply disappeared at the end for a very vague fortune telling.

I'm not really sure what else I can say past that without having a longer entry, but I do hope you reconsider the ending that you have written for Mass Effect 3, and listen to what some of the fans have said. We don't want to hate the game (at least, I don't think all of us do, I certainly don't) but the way this played out does not make me want to cotinue investing in the franchise, or actually encourage people to participate in it if this is how the trilogy is supposed to end.

Modifié par Riknas, 22 mars 2012 - 11:29 .