564 réponses à ce sujet

[Vromrig]

I am having a hard time responding to you lol. I keep trying to type back in your style but I don't want to butcher it.

The games and books(i didnt read the books but I have been told by people that have) say you can't break indoc. There is no attempt. They just indoctrinate you.

So what I am saying is Shepard can not be attempted to be indoctrinated, according to the lore and mechanics of the ME universe. So he would have BEEN indoctrinated if he hallucinated all that garbage(it was garbage) at the end.

So when your theory ends, all that we can be left with, again, according to ALL the ME lore and mechancs, we are left with a brain dead shepard.


I assume you have played all the games. You should know everything I said above it true. Never in the history of the game has ANYONE denied or beaten Indoctrination, for more then a minute or 2, besidesd Shiala and that was only because of the Thorium plant which linked the colonies minds together. You can check for yourself if you google Shiala and read the Wiki, or just play ME2 again. Get to Illium, go to where you buy the star charts from the Asari and Shiali will tell you this herself if you saved her in ME1.

Did not read books. Waste of time. Bioware littered with poor novelists. Drew Karpyshyn chief among them. Beside the point.

Understand that Reapers cannot simply choose to indoctrinate. Must attempt. Chance for failure. Indicative of frustrated "Growl" when they fail. Still try anyway.

Once Indoctrination successful, no hope for true release, only moment of redemption. Suicide, in two cases. Morbid. Case made that indoctrination is still being attempted. Must convince Shepard error of his ways. Take him as thrall. He is resisting. Holding the line.

Agree, however, should indoctrination succeed, no hope for Shepard.  Point of theory is that it has not succeeded.

Modifié par Vromrig, 21 mars 2012 - 06:16 .

[Capeo]

Vromrig wrote...

But Shepardis only alive because of his synthetic parts. If it's gone...He dies.

Emphasis placed on Shepard and Geth, newfound friends, when highlighting negatives of destruction choice. Important point to note.

Yes, it is.  Because Destroy is the selfish Renegade choice.  Something you'd know if you read the script.  You think BW would take all that time to humanize the Geth then not guilt you for destroying them?  The "perfect" choice according to the script is Synergy.  Hence it unlocks AFTER Destroy and Control and is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

[Capeo]

Vromrig wrote...

I am having a hard time responding to you lol. I keep trying to type back in your style but I don't want to butcher it.

The games and books(i didnt read the books but I have been told by people that have) say you can't break indoc. There is no attempt. They just indoctrinate you.

So what I am saying is Shepard can not be attempted to be indoctrinated, according to the lore and mechanics of the ME universe. So he would have BEEN indoctrinated if he hallucinated all that garbage(it was garbage) at the end.

So when your theory ends, all that we can be left with, again, according to ALL the ME lore and mechancs, we are left with a brain dead shepard.


I assume you have played all the games. You should know everything I said above it true. Never in the history of the game has ANYONE denied or beaten Indoctrination, for more then a minute or 2, besidesd Shiala and that was only because of the Thorium plant which linked the colonies minds together. You can check for yourself if you google Shiala and read the Wiki, or just play ME2 again. Get to Illium, go to where you buy the star charts from the Asari and Shiali will tell you this herself if you saved her in ME1.

Did not read books. Waste of time. Bioware littered with poor novelists. Drew Karpyshyn chief among them. Beside the point.

Understand that Reapers cannot simply choose to indoctrinate. Must attempt. Chance for failure. Indicative of frustrated "Growl" when they fail. Still try anyway.

Once Indoctrination successful, no hope for true release, only moment of redemption. Suicide, in two cases. Morbid. Case made that indoctrination is still being attempted. Must convince Shepard error of his ways. Take him as thrall. He is resisting. Holding the line.

Agree, however, should indoctrination succeed, no hope for Shepard.  Point of theory is that it has not succeeded.

Wow.  I can't even be in this thread anymore.  I can't take someone serious who talks like a friggin' video game character.

[Vromrig]

Yes, it is. Because Destroy is the selfish Renegade choice. Something you'd know if you read the script. You think BW would take all that time to humanize the Geth then not guilt you for destroying them? The "perfect" choice according to the script is Synergy. Hence it unlocks AFTER Destroy and Control and is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

Curious that only "good" choice is fulfilling Reaper goals. Does little to dampen argument.

[Silhouett3]

Surprised how so many still don't get the theory, it's called theory for a reason. I'll repeat myself:
The indoctrination theory is an interpretation of the present ending - not an objection to it.
We don't expect Bioware to change it but expect to add closure, clarity or at least confirmation - not a falsification to present ending.

[TudorWolf]

Eh, not everyone agrees with the indoctrination theory anyway. If Bioware really did implement it, not everyone would likely be pleased. I know I wouldn't be.

I'm not exactly crying about it not working out.

Granted, taking the endings at face value isn't great either, although my main reason for that personally is the lack of an epilogue to tell you how things actually pan out after your choice

[LancerGirl]

I think we'll need some fire extinguishers to stop this flame war. Keep it civil :<

I never thought indoc. theory was planned. That doesn't mean I don't like the theory, and I definitely prefer it over the current canon ending.

[Myskal1981]

Vromrig wrote...

But Shepardis only alive because of his synthetic parts. If it's gone...He dies.

Emphasis placed on Shepard and Geth, newfound friends, when highlighting negatives of destruction choice. Important point to note.

Shepard has synthetic Parts, but those parts don't have a independent AI, right? Unless the destroy options also destroys simple machines, those parts should still be active. Shepard's "essence" is organic and that remains intact.

[Jaze55]

booboo645 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


I assume you have played all the games. You should know everything I said above it true. Never in the history of the game has ANYONE denied or beaten Indoctrination, for more then a minute or 2, besidesd Shiala and that was only because of the Thorium plant which linked the colonies minds together. You can check for yourself if you google Shiala and read the Wiki, or just play ME2 again. Get to Illium, go to where you buy the star charts from the Asari and Shiali will tell you this herself if you saved her in ME1. 

Indoctrination was carried through some sort of pulse thing right...? So assuming that you are progressing at a pace, similar to say Saren or TIM. Assume you kill reapers... = no pulse from reaper tech to further make it worse? That or yeah.. everything ends the same. But makes more sense when the scenes play out. You're Shepard remember.. Liara is constantly hinting at how strong you are... we beat everything else... I'm hopeful. 

NO. That's not how it works. I will paste it for you - 

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">But the Reapers viewed them as disposable. When they disappeared back through the ] relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure.[/color] 


So when the Reapers went back to Dark Space, and the signal stopped and see above for what happens.

Doesn't matter HOW the signal stopped. Death or hibernating, the victim is screwed. 



EDIT- compare Saren at the start of ME1 to Shepard is ANY game.

Saren at the start was only SUBTLY indoctrinated and just look at all the bad thing he did in support of the Reapers.

Now compare Shep, at any point in any game. Did he ever do a single thing to help the Reapers? NOPE

Now if you say Shep gets indoctrinated at the beam, it was a RAPID indoc and he is a BRAIN DEAD HUSK no matter what. PERIOD. 

Modifié par MassEffected555, 21 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[I Soya I]

Capeo wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

But Shepardis only alive because of his synthetic parts. If it's gone...He dies.

Emphasis placed on Shepard and Geth, newfound friends, when highlighting negatives of destruction choice. Important point to note.

Yes, it is.  Because Destroy is the selfish Renegade choice.  Something you'd know if you read the script.  You think BW would take all that time to humanize the Geth then not guilt you for destroying them?  The "perfect" choice according to the script is Synergy.  Hence it unlocks AFTER Destroy and Control and is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

Destroy is Renegade as a trick according to the theory. Otherwise why would we think Anderson was a wrong and TIM was right? Also, it's synthesis, which is what Saren tried to achieve. And the last thing you unlock vvia EMS is the destroy ending where Sheppard wakes up in London. Look, at least familiarize yourself with the theory before you start bashing it. Your wasteing peoples time by having us explain as the conversation moves along.

[Vromrig]

Shepard has synthetic Parts, but those parts don't have a independent AI, right? Unless the destroy options also destroys simple machines, those parts should still be active. Shepard's "essence" is organic and that remains intact.

Difficult to believe, inconsistent with tone, dialogue. Emphasis on destruction of synthetics. Emphasis on you, those closest to you. Reinforcing negatives of continuing what you came to Citadel to do. Up-plays options in line with Reaper plans.

[Shayuri]

A couple of things.

First, there's plenty of game info that shows indoctrination being a gradual process. The argument that it's either/or, zero-sum is, to the best of my knowledge, absurd. Even the Cerberus crew on the dead Reaper were overcome gradually, as shown by the video logs there.

There are also several moments where even a thoroughly indoctrinated person is shown to overcome that indoctrination, if only on a momentary basis. Saren and the Illusive Man can be made to confront the fact of their indoctrination and shoot themselves. Benezia managed to actually regain her senses and mind briefly on Novaria.

This doesn't mean Indoc Interpretation is correct, but it does fly in the face of that particular argument against it.

[Malanek]

I must grudgingly agree OP. Unless this is an attempt at misdirection (and why on Earth would they be doing that now?) it is a strike against the indoctrination theory. I believe the writers did not even have a clear view as to what happens. In trying to create ambiguity they did so amongst themselves. Still, I'm glad Ray wrote his blog, that is the best answer we have had so far.

[Baelyn]

Capeo wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

But Shepardis only alive because of his synthetic parts. If it's gone...He dies.

Emphasis placed on Shepard and Geth, newfound friends, when highlighting negatives of destruction choice. Important point to note.

Yes, it is.  Because Destroy is the selfish Renegade choice.  Something you'd know if you read the script.  You think BW would take all that time to humanize the Geth then not guilt you for destroying them?  The "perfect" choice according to the script is Synergy.  Hence it unlocks AFTER Destroy and Control and is supposed to be the best of both worlds.

So what you are saying is Saren was right?

[I Soya I]

Malanek999 wrote...

I must grudgingly agree OP. Unless this is an attempt at misdirection (and why on Earth would they be doing that now?) it is a strike against the indoctrination theory. I believe the writers did not even have a clear view as to what happens. In trying to create ambiguity they did so amongst themselves. Still, I'm glad Ray wrote his blog, that is the best answer we have had so far.

I will requote this part of the blog again as I'm sure it was lost pages up. 
"This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue." Yes, there was intent to continue from the start. Whethor or not they were going with IT is another thing but this in no way weakens the theory.

[Pepitobenito]

 It still makes more sense than any rationale Bioware can muster up.  There's just too many seemingly intentionally weird or fallicious points to the ending to pass it off as 'meant to be taken metaphorically' or bad writing.  I mean shooting the Illusive Man in self defense is a Renegade action!

[Jaze55]

ALSO - If Shepard is Hallucination HE IS INDOCTRINATED.

Hallucinating is an effect of BEING indoctrinated not them ATTEMPTING to.

The theory clearly says he hallucinated all the ending, so he is IN FACT then already indoctrinated.

You really can't have it both ways. He is or he isn't what one? hallucination means you have already been indoctrinated.

[Jeb231]

http://www.forbes.co...ryones-heads/2/

[booboo645]

MassEffected555 wrote...

NO. That's not how it works. I will paste it for you - 

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">But the Reapers viewed them as disposable. When they disappeared back through the ] relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure.[/color] 


So when the Reapers went back to Dark Space, and the signal stopped and see above for what happens.

Doesn't matter HOW the signal stopped. Death or hibernating, the victim is screwed. 



EDIT- compare Saren at the start of ME1 to Shepard is ANY game.

Saren at the start was only SUBTLY indoctrinated and just look at all the bad thing he did in support of the Reapers.

Now compare Shep, at any point in any game. Did he ever do a single thing to help the Reapers? NOPE

Now if you say Shep gets indoctrinated at the beam, it was a RAPID indoc and he is a BRAIN DEAD HUSK no matter what. PERIOD. 

Isn't this still boiling down to that whole point where you seem to think we full on believe they're indoctrinated. Do I think Harbinger has a beam that causes indoctrination?? No lol. I think he hit the floor infront and you ended up unconscious, yes.

I'm saying like many others, it is likely you are always in some sort of dreamlike weakened sleepy state when you have these hints of being indoctrinated. It is a constant lull. Shepard being who he is hasn't allowed him to get anywhere near Saren's state, though this could be the case upon waking from this.. and choosing the wrong thing. Even Saren wasn't fully indoctrinated... If you can shoot yourself you are not totally under control. Or at least that's the way I view it.

[KaMai19]

 Whether or not BW intended the Indoctrination interpretation, I seriously pray that they run with it. Please, Bioware, run with it! I don't see any other way to make the current endings less terrible in a meaningful way. 

I mean, your squadmates on the Normandy (which is fleeing for no reason), Shepard destroying the relays without a second thought...no one wants "closure" to that. 
Maybe you could expand on the differences in the outcomes between the three choices, but IMO that would just be developing an inherently flawed idea.  In fact, inferring what must happen is one of the biggest reasons people hate the endings: all three choices result in billions of aliens stranded on a burnt out Earth. 

No, InDoc theory is the way to go. It explains the abstract symbollic nature of the current ending, which otherwise doesn't fit at all. It makes elements that would be cheesy (the dream sequences) really awesome. And perhaps best of all, it gives the most room for new content that takes place after the current ending - that is, after Shepard gets back out of the rubble.

Even the InDoc haters will probably admit there's not a better way for them to handle the new "clarifying" content "without sacrificing the artistic integrity of the original"? If you can think of a better way, I'm all for it. But running with the InDoc theory has amazing narrative potential and justifies the prexisting scenes which otherwise are necessarily awful. 

[Malanek]

I Soya I wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I must grudgingly agree OP. Unless this is an attempt at misdirection (and why on Earth would they be doing that now?) it is a strike against the indoctrination theory. I believe the writers did not even have a clear view as to what happens. In trying to create ambiguity they did so amongst themselves. Still, I'm glad Ray wrote his blog, that is the best answer we have had so far.

I will requote this part of the blog again as I'm sure it was lost pages up. 
"This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue." Yes, there was intent to continue from the start. Whethor or not they were going with IT is another thing but this in no way weakens the theory.

For me the indoctrination theory needs intent. If it was completely unintended that breaks the premise because it didn't happen in the games reality. At best I now believe the writers had it in the back of their minds without committing to it.

[Nimrodell]

Well, according to Indoctrination Theory - if we do analogy - Paul Greyson was much more strong-willed than our Shepard, even though he could hear reaper voices even in his wake state and under red sand - and he was aware of them, fighting them as long as he could... So, bottom line is... Shepard is that weak willed or simply ignorant, no matter his 'great' knowledge on reapers and indoctrination.

[Jaze55]

booboo645 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

NO. That's not how it works. I will paste it for you - 

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">But the Reapers viewed them as disposable. When they disappeared back through the ] relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure.[/color] 


So when the Reapers went back to Dark Space, and the signal stopped and see above for what happens.

Doesn't matter HOW the signal stopped. Death or hibernating, the victim is screwed. 



EDIT- compare Saren at the start of ME1 to Shepard is ANY game.

Saren at the start was only SUBTLY indoctrinated and just look at all the bad thing he did in support of the Reapers.

Now compare Shep, at any point in any game. Did he ever do a single thing to help the Reapers? NOPE

Now if you say Shep gets indoctrinated at the beam, it was a RAPID indoc and he is a BRAIN DEAD HUSK no matter what. PERIOD. 

Isn't this still boiling down to that whole point where you seem to think we full on believe they're indoctrinated. Do I think Harbinger has a beam that causes indoctrination?? No lol. I think he hit the floor infront and you ended up unconscious, yes.

I'm saying like many others, it is likely you are always in some sort of dreamlike weakened sleepy state when you have these hints of being indoctrinated. It is a constant lull. Shepard being who he is hasn't allowed him to get anywhere near Saren's state, though this could be the case upon waking from this.. and choosing the wrong thing. Even Saren wasn't fully indoctrinated... If you can shoot yourself you are not totally under control. Or at least that's the way I view it.

That is such MASSIVE fail.

Near Sarens state? Again if you knew ANYTHING about ME1 you would know how fail that statement is.

Saren at the start of ME1 was at the weakest point of indoctrination.... again 10 seconds of research you could have found this yourself:

[color="#ffffff"]But as [/color]Saren Arterius[color="#ffffff"] discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the [/color]Conduit[color="#ffffff"].[/color] 


DERPPPPPPPPPPPP Saren was still MOSTLY in control of himself and again, look at all the terrible things he did BEFORE VIRMIRE when Sovy implanted him after meeting Shep there.


YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LORE THAT IS CLEAR.

[Vromrig]

MassEffected555 wrote...

ALSO - If Shepard is Hallucination HE IS INDOCTRINATED.

Hallucinating is an effect of BEING indoctrinated not them ATTEMPTING to.

The theory clearly says he hallucinated all the ending, so he is IN FACT then already indoctrinated.

You really can't have it both ways. He is or he isn't what one? hallucination means you have already been indoctrinated.

Not zero sum.  Hallucination not indicative of successful Inndoctrination.  Attempting to create own rules now, unnecessary.

Should argue based on facts, not emotions.

[MissMaster_2]

Nope still going with it. Don't curr.