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[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I Soya I wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

I Soya I wrote...

Caedryn Stonelaw wrote...

I have another question, after what events do shepard's nightmares occur?

Arrival.

Earth actually.  Unless you've seen anything I haven't.

And Earth was after Arrival. Besides, I assumed his question was worded incorrectly and was meant to ask when indoctrination was supposed to start. I was under the impression that it started at Arrival and the real life image of the boy was actually a hallucination.

Again for the stupid people.

Start a new game. Pick a character. Get to the last screen called PSYCOLOGICAL PROFILE.

Tell me what it says.

It is clear that the dreams are most likely the symptom of PTSD.  It's in the psych profile, it's in the script, and the voices Shepard hears in them tie into that.

Even if IT is valid, there's a difference between foreshadowing and actual signs of indoctrination.  If you want a theory to stand, take baby steps with it, don't just throw all your chips in and say everything supports it.

And it's CLEAR that at no point - and I am conceeding this to you for the sake of argument - that Shep was indoctrinated BEFORE the beam ok. 

So let's just go with the theory. He get's indoctrinated by Harby. There is NO ATTEMPT. Escpecially if he is having hallucinations. If he is having that deep and intricate of a hallucination there is NO DOUBT he is indoctrinated.,

Therfor when your theroy leaves off we are left with a Husk Shep or a brain dead drooling one.

GREAT WAY TO FINISH THE LAST PART OF THE GAME!! Shep beats all the reapers by drooling like an idiot at them.

[Repossessor]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

I was thinking that after Ray's response (http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/) and Hudson's response last week - the InDoc Theory (as much as I support it) - was probably not planned afterall.

I believe that if the InDoc theory will appear in a future DLC - it is probably due to community feedback - rather than original intend.

Hey if I had a game with an ending where everyone complains, and a lot of people see hints about how to continue the series: If that wasn't my original intention and I wanted to make changes - why not incorporate something that seems to resonate with a lot of people.

Sure - this whole thing still could have been planned - I supported that stance for as long as I could - but after seeing two official responses from BioWare - none of which discussed that it was their original intend to continue the series - it seems a bit unlikely that the InDoc theory was planned.

Or let me put it in other words: If anything of the InDoc theory is correct - as I've already stated in another thread: I don't see why BioWare drops more hints about it - given the huge controversy that sparked - with EA even accepting refunds of the game.

So to summarize: Sure the InDoc theory might still happen - but reading Ray's announcement it doesn't seem like it was their original intention.

Thoughts? 

Well to be fair, regardless to whatever we think is in the final game, we have to be fair on Bioware here: they did plan the indoctrination, according to the Final Hours of ME3 doc, they only dropped the indoctrination in November 2011.  I think its unfair for any of us, on either side of the line, to try and pass it off either way (again, regardless of what is in the final game).  Point being, it was/had been planned, whether any of us like it or not (or whether they follow through with it in DLC)

[darkiddd]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...



[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">But as ] discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the [/color]Conduit. 


DERPPPPPPPPPPPP Saren was still MOSTLY in control of himself and again, look at all the terrible things he did BEFORE VIRMIRE when Sovy implanted him after meeting Shep there.


YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LORE THAT IS CLEAR.

You may not know it, but you have just provided a very valid argument for why the ending was as it is. The reapers were interested in Shepard (how many times in ME2 did Harbinger tell you he was after your mind, and had bigger plans for you). They want Shepard. Just like Cerberus (hint hint) wanted no alterations to be made to him, because they wanted it to be completely him. They need to, as subtley as possible, make Shepard think he is doing everything out of his own will, because, the harder they press on him, the less "Shepard" he becomes. Just like Saren. They realized their flaw with Saren was that Saren was screwed up from the start and didn't have the respect of the people.

Remember the scene from the book when Grayson intentionally steers his shuttle away as a distraction later to find out that he actually steered it towards? The most deadly form of indoctrination is the type that is subtle enough to make you not even realize your actions are not your own, and are actually theirs.

Yeah like Saren? The same Saren that got the Geth, did all that terrible **** in ME1 who was SUBTLY INDOCTRINATED at that point?

When does Shepard EVER do ONE single thing to help reapers at ANY point in ANY game?

Tell me.

Your not understand the concept of being in the process of indoctrination and being fully indoctrinated.

Considering this is the first time, if IT is valid in any case, that we've seen someone like Shepard undergo indoctrination in their own mind, no one can understand that whole concept.  It's an unprecendented situation.  Pretending we understand it all, on either side of the argument, is just fooling ourselves into thinking we know this better than BioWare.

Again, that doesn't mean IT is true or not, only that us trying to get in a **** measuring contest over lore on something that's never happened in the franchise before is ridiculous.

And despite his horrible nature, MassEffected is correct that you can only be indoctrinated and not indoctrinated.  The only middle ground is the process and, in lore, that is a very, very short process.

Mmm no it is not. Indoctrination is a process where you subtly accept suggestions that will drive your acts and motivations to a point where you end up doing the reapers will, thinking you are doing the right thing. At the end of the indoctrination process you are pretty much screwed because now even if you realize you mind isn't your own now you can't do anything and you even feel pain if you disobey. This is what happened to Saren.

That's why it is so important to indoctrinate someone slowly without the subject realizing about it. Because then the person will still think is doing his own choices driven by his own motivations and this makes them more useful than the husks for example.

They have done this with Shepard. The reapers haven't invaded his mind ala Harbinger "submit Shepard" "Don't resist" "Your mind will be mine" and all that crap because they know Shepard would realize he is being indoctrinated and would resist. Instead they confuse his objective (control or synthesis instead of destroy) they strengthen his guilt and exhaust his mind with sorrow and desperation. Why? Because they still want Shepard to think on his own or at least they give him the illusion of independence but agreeing with their purpose. They **** up his mind to make another Saren.

[Caedryn Stonelaw]

byne wrote...

Caedryn Stonelaw wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I Soya I wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

I Soya I wrote...

Caedryn Stonelaw wrote...

I have another question, after what events do shepard's nightmares occur?

Arrival.

Earth actually.  Unless you've seen anything I haven't.

And Earth was after Arrival. Besides, I assumed his question was worded incorrectly and was meant to ask when indoctrination was supposed to start. I was under the impression that it started at Arrival and the real life image of the boy was actually a hallucination.

Again for the stupid people.

Start a new game. Pick a character. Get to the last screen called PSYCOLOGICAL PROFILE.

Tell me what it says.

No, what I'm asking is during the events of mass effect three, after what events in the story do the ghostly forest and buring child nightmares pop up, I'm curious to see if they only occur after major pushbacks against the reapers, sort of as a way to attempt to reassert the indoctrination process.

I think you get the first one after recruiting Garrus, though I could be mistaken on the timing of that one.

You get another after the genophage cure.

You also get one right before attacking TIM's base

Thank you, I do find it interesting that it occurs after the revival the most formidible ground force in the galaxy and before attacking their current primary agent, but after Palaven event doesn't really fit in as a major event so i might just be wrong.

[Kiara]

I have a theory.. haha
They didn't deny the indoc theory specifically, with the indoctrination theory or not many people are still upset about the ending. I think they are taken back by everyones anger that it was ended a abruptly.. and didn't catch on, perhaps they are waiting for more people to figure out the ending for them selves.. So I say there is still hope for it.

Holding the Line!

[Jaze55]

byne wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


The reapers goal is NOT to turn everyone synthetic you twit. Where the hell did you come up with that nonsense.

MassEffected555 wrote...


EDIT- let me be clear. The reapers goal is to stop organics making that dumb "tech singularity" or whatever we are calling it BY harvesting organinc life and then...

STORING THEM IN REAPER FORM.

I kinda got the idea from the second part I quoted.

Yknow, the part where they turn everyone into synthetic/organic hybrids.

IN REAPER FORM. Not half human/synthetic form that looks like the original shape. REAPER FORM. Clear as day. 

[TuringPoint]

They are thinking how to address concerns while 'maintaining artistic integrity', which means not changing the ending to something else but giving further explanation.

In my opinion making the ending into 'shepard was indoctrinated, nothing is real' is 100x as cheap and insensitive as the ending just as it is.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Tsantilas]

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

[Jaze55]

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

[ArkkAngel007]

MassEffected555 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Considering this is the first time, if IT is valid in any case, that we've seen someone like Shepard undergo indoctrination in their own mind, no one can understand that whole concept.  It's an unprecendented situation.  Pretending we understand it all, on either side of the argument, is just fooling ourselves into thinking we know this better than BioWare.

Again, that doesn't mean IT is true or not, only that us trying to get in a **** measuring contest over lore on something that's never happened in the franchise before is ridiculous.

And despite his horrible nature, MassEffected is correct that you can only be indoctrinated and not indoctrinated.  The only middle ground is the process and, in lore, that is a very, very short process.

And where exactly does everone else get indoctrinated? Their pinky toe? EVERYONE get's indoctrinated in their mind idiot. Cerubus was studying this. 

WOW

EDIT- Also Saren was studying this. Remember that Asari lab tech you meet before getting to Sarens office? THEY WERE STUDYING THE EFFECTS OF INDOC ON PEOPLES MINDS!@!!!!!


See idiot you do not know a dam thing about the game.

unprecidented. The only thing unprecidented is your stupidity. 

You misundertood me.  Shut the **** up with your rage, calm down, and make sure what you think I said is right before calling me out on it.

We have never seen/heard of what indoctrination is like, especially with Shepard's case, inside the mind.  We hear about what the physical, visual effects are, but not what it would be like with a fully unconscious individual.  That was m point.  The closest we came to, and this was again with a fully conscious individual who was already exposed more than likely, was Benezia where she felt trapped within her mind due to her beiing lucky enough to be able to lock enough of herself away for the proper moment.  We however don't know what the process would be like to an unconscious individual had how the mind would interpret such signals.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 21 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[RavenEyry]

Ellythe wrote...

Please stop responding to the individual whose every other word is an insult. You cannot convince this individual and every time you quote them you're repeating what they said.

Despite the Word of God that came down today, I still think Indoctrination Theory makes more sense than the ending.

I think slow indoctrination is more like manipulation. They slowly warp your perceptions until you actually use your free will to follow them. Your own free will is a more powerful weapon for the reapers than a mindless puppet would be.

The word of god does nothing to affect the theory. As it's an interpretation of the ending saying "we stick by the ending" doesn't invalidate our interpretation in any way.

I agree everyone should stop responding to the person who keeps saying we don't know the lore even though we've cited the lore to them several times.

[Cosmar]

Diegofsv wrote...

It makes me really sad that they really thought that the end was enough. I mean, come on! Its insulting. KOTOR, Jade Empire, DA:O, I mean this guys already made great endings, they know how to end a story....for god's sake.

True! But also, different teams, different writers...

[Hashbeth]

I think the most important issue here is this:

It is moot whether the Indoc theory was planned or not. Those who support it, like myself, offer it as an easy solution to add ending content without changing the already existing ending drastically.
That's it.

Argue about validity in a thread about whether you agree or disagree with the theory. Right now it's just people yelling

[Kabraxal]

Really like how the ones arguing against the indoctrination theory don't even have a clue what the theory is saying at all....

As for Bioware's response... it does nothing to disprove the theory, especially since DLC content that validates the theory wouldn't change the ending at all... just be a continuation from it.  

[Ghost of a Messiah]

just look at the Indoc codex it explains exactly how stress even help IT.

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Considering this is the first time, if IT is valid in any case, that we've seen someone like Shepard undergo indoctrination in their own mind, no one can understand that whole concept.  It's an unprecendented situation.  Pretending we understand it all, on either side of the argument, is just fooling ourselves into thinking we know this better than BioWare.

Again, that doesn't mean IT is true or not, only that us trying to get in a **** measuring contest over lore on something that's never happened in the franchise before is ridiculous.

And despite his horrible nature, MassEffected is correct that you can only be indoctrinated and not indoctrinated.  The only middle ground is the process and, in lore, that is a very, very short process.

And where exactly does everone else get indoctrinated? Their pinky toe? EVERYONE get's indoctrinated in their mind idiot. Cerubus was studying this. 

WOW

EDIT- Also Saren was studying this. Remember that Asari lab tech you meet before getting to Sarens office? THEY WERE STUDYING THE EFFECTS OF INDOC ON PEOPLES MINDS!@!!!!!


See idiot you do not know a dam thing about the game.

unprecidented. The only thing unprecidented is your stupidity. 

You misundertood me.  Shut the **** up with your rage, calm down, and make sure what you think I said is right before calling me out on it.

We have never seen/heard of what indoctrination is like, especially with Shepard's case, inside the mind.  We hear about what the physical, visual effects are, but not what it would be like with a fully unconscious individual.  That was m point.  The closest we came to, and this was again with a fully conscious individual who was already exposed more than likely, was Benezia where she felt trapped within her mind due to her beiing lucky enough to be able to lock enough of herself away for the proper moment.  We however don't know what the process would be like to an unconscious individual had how the mind would interpret such signals.

WRONG! On Virmire you can talk to a Salarien prisoner that clearly describes what it's like. Shiala describes what it's like. Saren describes what it's like. There are even video on the derilict reaper ship showing people going through it. 

Serious question. Did you play ME1 and if you did how long ago? Did you play ME2 and how long ago?

EDIT- Again, if you are indoctrinated you are done. Shep is having Hallucination out of nowhere, for the first time in the game ever, so that means he is under RAPID INDOCTRINATION so he is going to be brain dead or a husk after.

Modifié par MassEffected555, 21 mars 2012 - 07:28 .

[TuringPoint]

Changing the ending doesn't solve anything; giving us an ending that accounts for choices more would.

[darkiddd]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

[byne]

Caedryn Stonelaw wrote...

Thank you, I do find it interesting that it occurs after the revival the most formidible ground force in the galaxy and before attacking their current primary agent, but after Palaven event doesn't really fit in as a major event so i might just be wrong.

Actually now that I think about it, I dont think there was one after Palaven, I think the first one is actually right after you talk to the Council the first time

[Bourne Endeavor]

Just for ****s and giggles. Here is a crazy thought to chew on. What if the content already exists on the disc and what is released is either DLC or a code hosted on BioWare's website that unlocks it? This would dispel the rebuttal arguments of cost in rehiring voice actors, CGI artists and the sale of an incomplete product. In addition, if the code idea were utilized then everyone with an internet connection can access it, free of charge.

Like I said, crazy but just a thought. Why not one more conspiracy theory while we wait around for answers?

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 21 mars 2012 - 07:27 .

[Ghost of a Messiah]

This is all you need.



http://uninhibitedan.../mind-holy-fuck

Pay attention to both of them and then come back and say you don't believe in the "theory".

[Jaze55]

darkiddd wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

OK so he is indoctrinated. Like I said, husk or brain dead Shep then to finish the game.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par MassEffected555, 21 mars 2012 - 07:29 .

[Kiara]

Kabraxal wrote...

Really like how the ones arguing against the indoctrination theory don't even have a clue what the theory is saying at all....

As for Bioware's response... it does nothing to disprove the theory, especially since DLC content that validates the theory wouldn't change the ending at all... just be a continuation from it.  

Exactly what I was saying, there is still hope

Holding the line

[booboo645]

"Saren made it his goal to save the races of the galaxy by aiding the Reapers, proving the worth of organics to the Reapers so that they might be spared. He believed that servitude was the logical answer, instead of instinctively fighting to the finish.

The more time Saren spent in service to Sovereign, the more indoctrinated he became. His free will was gradually sapped and supplanted by the desires of the Reaper, and the values of his people that Saren still believed in — that an individual's personal needs are always subordinate to the greater good of the group — were twisted so gradually that Saren remained certain he was right." a 5 second browse of wiki, essentially my overall view from playing though.

And wiki is obv not the best info source.. but better than the generic Saren belief type responses you give. Saren always believed that giving in was a better choice than fighting. He believed he was doing good yes, but he was indoctrinated.... slowly.. Everything you describe are indoctrinated people's beliefs on how indoctrination is.

I don't get why Shepard is anything different. Indoctrination is a brainwash process.

Also.. The humans were still stored in human/reaper form. If you go with that dumb dream anyway the reapers have no point whatsoever. They won't harvest anything. There is nothing to do in the galaxy. They don't die right so ...Harbinger will now join you for picnics.

[ArkkAngel007]

MassEffected555 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Considering this is the first time, if IT is valid in any case, that we've seen someone like Shepard undergo indoctrination in their own mind, no one can understand that whole concept.  It's an unprecendented situation.  Pretending we understand it all, on either side of the argument, is just fooling ourselves into thinking we know this better than BioWare.

Again, that doesn't mean IT is true or not, only that us trying to get in a **** measuring contest over lore on something that's never happened in the franchise before is ridiculous.

And despite his horrible nature, MassEffected is correct that you can only be indoctrinated and not indoctrinated.  The only middle ground is the process and, in lore, that is a very, very short process.

And where exactly does everone else get indoctrinated? Their pinky toe? EVERYONE get's indoctrinated in their mind idiot. Cerubus was studying this. 

WOW

EDIT- Also Saren was studying this. Remember that Asari lab tech you meet before getting to Sarens office? THEY WERE STUDYING THE EFFECTS OF INDOC ON PEOPLES MINDS!@!!!!!


See idiot you do not know a dam thing about the game.

unprecidented. The only thing unprecidented is your stupidity. 

You misundertood me.  Shut the **** up with your rage, calm down, and make sure what you think I said is right before calling me out on it.

We have never seen/heard of what indoctrination is like, especially with Shepard's case, inside the mind.  We hear about what the physical, visual effects are, but not what it would be like with a fully unconscious individual.  That was m point.  The closest we came to, and this was again with a fully conscious individual who was already exposed more than likely, was Benezia where she felt trapped within her mind due to her beiing lucky enough to be able to lock enough of herself away for the proper moment.  We however don't know what the process would be like to an unconscious individual had how the mind would interpret such signals.

WRONG! On Virmire you can talk to a Salarien prisoner that clearly describes what it's like. Shiala describes what it's like. Saren describes what it's like. There are even video on the derilict reaper ship showing people going through it. 

Serious question. Did you play ME1 and if you did how long ago? Did you play ME2 and how long ago?

Do you not read?  I said with an unconscious individual, not conscious (which I'm throwing dreams in there as well as sleep is just a diffrent state of consciousness).  All of those people were conscious during their indoctrination where those symptoms presented.