564 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Except I convinced Padok Wiks not to cure the genophage, and to just pretend he did, and I still had the dream even though no one died.

Also, I dont ever recall getting a dream after Thane dies

[Jaze55]

booboo645 wrote...

"Saren made it his goal to save the races of the galaxy by aiding the Reapers, proving the worth of organics to the Reapers so that they might be spared. He believed that servitude was the logical answer, instead of instinctively fighting to the finish.

The more time Saren spent in service to Sovereign, the more indoctrinated he became. His free will was gradually sapped and supplanted by the desires of the Reaper, and the values of his people that Saren still believed in — that an individual's personal needs are always subordinate to the greater good of the group — were twisted so gradually that Saren remained certain he was right." a 5 second browse of wiki, essentially my overall view from playing though.

And wiki is obv not the best info source.. but better than the generic Saren belief type responses you give. Saren always believed that giving in was a better choice than fighting. He believed he was doing good yes, but he was indoctrinated.... slowly.. Everything you describe are indoctrinated people's beliefs on how indoctrination is.

I don't get why Shepard is anything different. Indoctrination is a brainwash process.

Also.. The humans were still stored in human/reaper form. If you go with that dumb dream anyway the reapers have no point whatsoever. They won't harvest anything. There is nothing to do in the galaxy. They don't die right so ...Harbinger will now join you for picnics.

Right and according to the Theory Shep is under RAPID INDOCTRINATION which leaves you as a mindless husk or braindead.

The only possible outcomes for where the indoc theory leaves off.

[Jaze55]

byne wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Except I convinced Padok Wiks not to cure the genophage, and to just pretend he did, and I still had the dream even though no one died.

Also, I dont ever recall getting a dream after Thane dies

LOL it happens after the priority missions. 

[byne]

MassEffected555 wrote...

darkiddd wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

OK so he is indoctrinated. Like I said, husk or brain dead Shep then to finish the game.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because resisting indoctrination is totally impossible.

Thats why Saren couldnt resist it at all, and we had no choice but to shoot him ourselves.

Ohwaitaminute.

MassEffected555, did YOU even play ME1?

[Ghost of a Messiah]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Just for ****s and giggles. Here is a crazy thought to chew on. What if the content already exists on the disc and what is released is either DLC or a code hosted on BioWare's website that unlocks it? This would dispel the rebuttal arguments of cost in rehiring voice actors, CGI artists and the sale of an incomplete product. In addition, if the code idea were utilized then everyone with an internet connection can access it, free of charge.

Like I said, crazy but just a thought. Why not one more conspiracy theory while we wait around for answers?

We need more people saying what your saying... Otherwise we don't deserve anymore than we've been given.
All we need is hope.

[darkiddd]

MassEffected555 wrote...

darkiddd wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

OK so he is indoctrinated. Like I said, husk or brain dead Shep then to finish the game.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nope because the post-indoctrination dlc would be about this. I imagine that if you chose control or synthesis then Shepard is on the edge of defeat on his mind and this would negatively affect on the real ending (not that you couldn't do anything to stop it, maybe self sacrifice or something like that) and if you chose destroy you are in a much stronger mental state to confront Hrbinger, TIM or whoever is the final opponent before the real ending. Don't tell me this wouldn't be awesome? 

[byne]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Right and according to the Theory Shep is under RAPID INDOCTRINATION which leaves you as a mindless husk or braindead.

The only possible outcomes for where the indoc theory leaves off.

Thats just an entire misunderstanding of Indoctrination Theory. Sure, it says that at the end, Harbinger is putting more pressure on the Indoctrination, trying to speed it up as a last ditch effort, but it also says Shep has been undergoing the slow patient indoctrination throughout the entire game.

[vrumpt]

Actually, after Ray's blog I have more belief than ever that this theory is true. Particularly because of his closing statements asking us to do research into the ending.

The ending as it stands is very very clear and doesn't need much explanation at all. The only reason he would ask people to do research into the endings is because he wants them to stumble upon the indoctrination theory and realize what the ending actually means for himself. There really isn't any other way to interpret that statement.

[Silhouett3]

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies.

Mordin important, check. Thane important, badass, check.  Child imp... Why is that child an important character? Why would Shepard start dreaming about those he sacrifices now? What about those sacrificed in Virmire? These are nothing like the Prothean beacon vision, they are focused around Shepard. Again, why would Shepard in ME3 suddenly become mentally unstable and start hallucinating?

[Stakis]

i hope you guys realize that the indocrination theory ( wich i also support after restarting the game and carefully looking at the kid scenes ) proves that the game is unfinished ?

i mean lets think about it, Green or Blue = Shep is indocrinated , game is not over, reapers are still doing their thing, and have good old shep turned into a mindless husk running against some wall in london, this is the easy mode for bioware they only need a epilogue showing everyone getting harvested.

Red ending however means sheps is free ( at least for a while ) of the indocrination, and that means his up and running again to activate the crucible with still harbinger and even TIM to be dealt with, i dont think bioware wants to go that road since it implies alot of work to be done.

Modifié par Stakis, 21 mars 2012 - 07:37 .

[Ghost of a Messiah]

vrumpt wrote...

Actually, after Ray's blog I have more belief than ever that this theory is true. Particularly because of his closing statements asking us to do research into the ending.

The ending as it stands is very very clear and doesn't need much explanation at all. The only reason he would ask people to do research into the endings is because he wants them to stumble upon the indoctrination theory and realize what the ending actually means for himself. There really isn't any other way to interpret that statement.

This

[Jaze55]

byne wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

darkiddd wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

OK so he is indoctrinated. Like I said, husk or brain dead Shep then to finish the game.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because resisting indoctrination is totally impossible.

Thats why Saren couldnt resist it at all, and we had no choice but to shoot him ourselves.

Ohwaitaminute.

MassEffected555, did YOU even play ME1?

Hey idiot. I said you can resist for a minute or 2 to kill yourself.

That's what you want? Indoc theory ends. Shep breaks free for a minute. Shoots himself in face.

The end.

Please continure the adventure by purchasing more DLC!!!


yep thats the ending I was always hoping for.


******

[RavenEyry]

Ghost of a Messiah wrote...

vrumpt wrote...

Actually, after Ray's blog I have more belief than ever that this theory is true. Particularly because of his closing statements asking us to do research into the ending.

The ending as it stands is very very clear and doesn't need much explanation at all. The only reason he would ask people to do research into the endings is because he wants them to stumble upon the indoctrination theory and realize what the ending actually means for himself. There really isn't any other way to interpret that statement.

This

Seconding the "this". I've been thinking for a while that Bioware is getting worried because they expected everyone to go "Ah, I get it now" when the theory was presented, not angrily deny it.

[byne]

MassEffected555 wrote...

byne wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

darkiddd wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

OK so he is indoctrinated. Like I said, husk or brain dead Shep then to finish the game.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because resisting indoctrination is totally impossible.

Thats why Saren couldnt resist it at all, and we had no choice but to shoot him ourselves.

Ohwaitaminute.

MassEffected555, did YOU even play ME1?

Hey idiot. I said you can resist for a minute or 2 to kill yourself.

That's what you want? Indoc theory ends. Shep breaks free for a minute. Shoots himself in face.

The end.

Please continure the adventure by purchasing more DLC!!!


yep thats the ending I was always hoping for.


******

Good sir, I understand you disagree with me, but calling me an idiot and a ****** neither strengthens your argument nor weakens mine, it just makes you sound like a jerk.

That said, Shepard has proven to be, to quote Liara, remarkably strong willed. I dont see any reason why resisting indoctrination for a longer period of time isnt possible, especially since Saren could resist for a minute or so, even with Reaper implants that let them control him.

[Tsantilas]

The characters we've seen able to resist indoctrination have only been able to do it for a few seconds, just enough time to perform a last act of redemtion.  There is no mention of a single character in the entire series able to permanently break out of Indoctrination other than Shiala, but only because she was controlled by the Thorian and not directly by the reapers.  So unless you want to argue that Shepard is superman and rules established in the canon don't apply to him, then there's no reason to believe he would be any different.

Anyway, the Indoctrination theory is pretty well thought out, it connects the dots in a fairly convincing manner, but ultimately it is not the narrative that disproves the theory, but the game and the statements of the developers.

• Bioware states the game is complete and it stands alone without DLC
• Indoctrination Theory would leave the game
  with Shepard waking up from a dream if you picked 1 of 16 possible
  endings meaning the reapers aren't defeated
• That means the game is incomplete ->
  Indoctrination Theory doesn't work.

The proof is right here:

[Ghost of a Messiah]

Stakis wrote...

i hope you guys realize that the indocrination theory ( wich i also support after restarting the game and carefully looking at the kid scenes ) proves that the game is unfinished ?

i mean lets think about it, Green or Blue = Shep is indocrinated , game is not over, reapers are still doing their thing, and have good old shep turned into a mindless husk running against some wall in london, this is the easy mode for bioware they only need a epilogue showing everyone getting harvested.

Red ending however means sheps is free ( at least for a while ) of the indocrination, and that means his up and running again to activate the crucible with still harbinger and even TIM to be dealt with, i dont think bioware wants to go that road since it implies alot of work to be done.

How do you know they haven't already worked so hard? This is the only way to have the entire fanbase truly feel how powerful the indoctrination process is... Its the only way we can truly feel how Shepard feels.

[I Soya I]

Ok so uh, I just went on youtube to watch the synthesis ending of ME3 and Sarens final words in ME1 and they pretty much say "Final stage of evolution" in regards to combining organics and synthetics, and Saren is literally implanted with cybernetics from Sovereign -.- so how would the synthesis ending and letting the reapers live not be helping the reapers? I'm not trying to rekindle the flame war, I just want clarification.

[Capeo]

vrumpt wrote...

Actually, after Ray's blog I have more belief than ever that this theory is true. Particularly because of his closing statements asking us to do research into the ending.

The ending as it stands is very very clear and doesn't need much explanation at all. The only reason he would ask people to do research into the endings is because he wants them to stumble upon the indoctrination theory and realize what the ending actually means for himself. There really isn't any other way to interpret that statement.

If that's what you got from that blog then... 

Unreal.

[Capeo]

I Soya I wrote...

Ok so uh, I just went on youtube to watch the synthesis ending of ME3 and Sarens final words in ME1 and they pretty much say "Final stage of evolution" in regards to combining organics and synthetics, and Saren is literally implanted with cybernetics from Sovereign -.- so how would the synthesis ending and letting the reapers live not be helping the reapers? I'm not trying to rekindle the flame war, I just want clarification.

The Reapers are in a sense trying to help us.  By merging synths and organics their is no need to Reap anymore.  

[Jaze55]

byne wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

byne wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

darkiddd wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies. Etc. It has nothing to do with the reapers, or indoctrination, or whatever random ideas you people have come up with to support your theory. Shepard is burdened by his losses. PTSD. He's stressed out and it's manifesting as nightmares.

Here. 

He is stressed out and vulnerable, moments the reapers take to feed on his guilty and indoctrinate him.

OK so he is indoctrinated. Like I said, husk or brain dead Shep then to finish the game.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because resisting indoctrination is totally impossible.

Thats why Saren couldnt resist it at all, and we had no choice but to shoot him ourselves.

Ohwaitaminute.

MassEffected555, did YOU even play ME1?

Hey idiot. I said you can resist for a minute or 2 to kill yourself.

That's what you want? Indoc theory ends. Shep breaks free for a minute. Shoots himself in face.

The end.

Please continure the adventure by purchasing more DLC!!!


yep thats the ending I was always hoping for.


******

Good sir, I understand you disagree with me, but calling me an idiot and a ****** neither strengthens your argument nor weakens mine, it just makes you sound like a jerk.

That said, Shepard has proven to be, to quote Liara, remarkably strong willed. I dont see any reason why resisting indoctrination for a longer period of time isnt possible, especially since Saren could resist for a minute or so, even with Reaper implants that let them control him.

I am THE biggest jerk you will ever meet if you are trying to destroy something I love.

You theory destroys all the lore that has been established for the past games and books.

Also - Benezia is described as "exceptionally strong willed" and look what happened to her. The spiritual leader, the 800+ year old Asari that has been NOTHIGN but a force of good her entire life, did.

So there ya go. More proof your ASSUMPTIONS on what happens are false.

Also, what happens if you DON"T para/rena Saren? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?????

[Tsantilas]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies.

Mordin important, check. Thane important, badass, check.  Child imp... Why is that child an important character? Why would Shepard start dreaming about those he sacrifices now? What about those sacrificed in Virmire? These are nothing like the Prothean beacon vision, they are focused around Shepard. Again, why would Shepard in ME3 suddenly become mentally unstable and start hallucinating?

Because Bioware decided for mass effect 3: "**** player choice, Shepard is suddenly burdened by this dramatic event with the kid dying.  What?  Your Shepard wouldn't be effected by something like that?  Too bad, thats the Shepard we want to portray."

[Jaze55]

Capeo wrote...

I Soya I wrote...

Ok so uh, I just went on youtube to watch the synthesis ending of ME3 and Sarens final words in ME1 and they pretty much say "Final stage of evolution" in regards to combining organics and synthetics, and Saren is literally implanted with cybernetics from Sovereign -.- so how would the synthesis ending and letting the reapers live not be helping the reapers? I'm not trying to rekindle the flame war, I just want clarification.

The Reapers are in a sense trying to help us.  By merging synths and organics their is no need to Reap anymore.  

INTO REAPER FORM.

R E A P E R FORM.

NOT Human form, or asari form or salarien form where you keep your tiny little body.

REAPER FORM.

[byne]

Tsantilas wrote...

[*]Bioware states the game is complete and it stands alone without DLC[*]That means the game is incomplete ->
Indoctrination Theory doesn't work.[/list]

Bioware also said that the endings wouldnt be a choice between A, B, and C.

I dont see why you'd trust anything they say.


I snipped out the part where you said there were 16 endings, simply because I dont know what game you played. I had one ending in multiple colors.

[Jaze55]

Tsantilas wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Shepard has dreams after important characters die in the plot. The first one is after the Child dies, on the way to the Citadel. The second one happens after Mordin dies. The third one after Thane dies.

Mordin important, check. Thane important, badass, check.  Child imp... Why is that child an important character? Why would Shepard start dreaming about those he sacrifices now? What about those sacrificed in Virmire? These are nothing like the Prothean beacon vision, they are focused around Shepard. Again, why would Shepard in ME3 suddenly become mentally unstable and start hallucinating?

Because Bioware decided for mass effect 3: "**** player choice, Shepard is suddenly burdened by this dramatic event with the kid dying.  What?  Your Shepard wouldn't be effected by something like that?  Too bad, thats the Shepard we want to portray."

Pretty sure he has the dreams after every priority mission.

[RavenEyry]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Pretty sure he has the dreams after every priority mission.

There are more than three priority missions but only three dreams.