258 réponses à ce sujet

[nomoredruggs]

I don't think it actually says that they are going to add to the ending, to me it reads as buying a bit of time to get their facts together and decide what to do about it, but I do feel it is a step in the right directions and that certainly we shouldn't be rabbid about it.

We should still make our presence felt though.

Keep it civil

[SidNitzerglobin]

Starshadow2010 wrote...

Why such happy faces, everyone? Did we waited for some statement for too long, so now ANY statement is met with more optimism, than it deserves? Respect? In advance? For what? For some vague promises again? For me they are as valid, as the promises of vastly differend endings and all questions answered before the game was released. While i am thankful for some response from a high-ranking corporate, i shall remain cautious untill i see what they do to fix this situation. Respect comes from your actions and accomplishments, not from the sole fact of your existance.

Communication is better than no communication IMO...  How much so is in the eye of the behloder.

[Almostfaceman]

I have the respect for them I have for any person who has done me no harm. This is a company - customer dialogue, and I'm the customer. It's not any more complicated than that. It's not worth yelling or screaming about, it's not worth insulting anyone over. It's simple, they can listen and make me happy or I can take my business elsewhere. So yes, on this level of a relationship, I respect them and I think they're making a move in the right direction in making me satisfied. I'm willing to continue to provide my feedback in a respectful and non-spamming manner and see where they take this - since they say they're listening.

[IST]

 Agreed, this is a victory for everyone - including Bioware, let your vision return and the joy re-fill your heart.

Or something similar. (I'm in a good mood today). 

[Silveralen]

AttaBoyTroy wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

ericjdev wrote...

Totally agree with you. I got up this morning and read the statement, was really excited and happy and then I started reading our response and my reaction changed to 'what the hell?". Have some of us become so jaded and cynical we can't even recognize when something good happens. This was a win and I can find no way not to view it as such. Was it everything we wanted? no, but we don't all want exactly the same things. This is great news, I am optimistic and hopeful and feel far better about the situation than I have since I finished the game.

Honestly? I don't think any of us trust Bioware enough to be happy until they deliver.

They burned through alot of goodwill, and the tone of these responses from Bioware isn't helping.

Speak for yourself. As well, I didn't really see anything wrong with the tone of Ray's response, and was encouraged by it. It's like you guys are TRYING to be upset at everything. If you expected him to throw everyone involved under the bus, you must have never been involved with any team ever. He stood by his team, and stated that they're going to look into making the endings better, what exactly were you expecting?

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

A quick summary would be, deflection, talking down to the fans, acting as though fans only slightly matter, and oerall mroe concerned about makingthe team look good than addressing our concerns.

He doesn't want to make the game better, or make the fans happy. He just wants the bad PR to stop. Coming from Bioware, that really makes me sad, I thought they were better than that.

[rabidm0ng0ose]

Yup everyone needs to stop anything that can resemble an attack and calm down and provide constructive criticism LIKE THEY SAID. They are going to ignore everyone if the forums are just flood with hate posts.

[RiouHotaru]

darkshadow136 wrote...

I personally see this new response by Bioware co-founder as more PR. They are still defending the ending, trying to label the people that dislike it as the minority, when every poll either here or on other sites say otherwise. There is also a great disconnect with reviews of the game, big magazines and sites that do a lot of advertising or in IGN case they had one of their own in the game. They give the game great reviews, even though they have a conflict of interest, and smaller but more honest reviewers of the game echo our dislike of not only the endings but how the endings reflect on the series lore itself.

All I got out of the Co-founder speech was PR damage control, defense of the ending and of the staff, trying to make the people that disliked the ending as a minority, and watch out we are answering questions in DLC so get out your wallets.

If the game is so good, and we are so few. Why does he say anything at all. It boils down to this they are realizing that they can’t sweep this under the rug like they did DA2. DA2 had supposed critical acclaim, but the user score of the game was very low. I think it comes down to this sites and magazines that Bioware and EA pay big advertising too always seem to rate the games favorable, Smaller reviewers, and user score their games Honestly.

Except that there's a few problems with this:

1) You ARE a minority.  This isn't an insult, or a belittling comment.  It is a statement of fact.  Even if the people upset with the endings is 100,000 individuals, there are MILLIONS of people who bought Mass Effect 3.  Therefore, while very outspoken, the Retake movement is a minority movement.  Again, not an insult.  The fact Ray recognizes that you're upset is a huge step.

2) Just because "user scores" are low and "professional reviews" are high doesn't mean the users are honest and the publications are not.  I recognize there's bias in the gaming media when it comes to reviews.  We all know that.  But to claim that every single perfect score ME3 got is ONLY the result of bias and/or bribery is patently ridiculous.  Also, "user scores" are almost universally ignored because of things like what happens at Metacritic.  No one can give a constructive review of the game, they just spew whatever vitrol they feel and slap on a 0 for a score.

3) I like how everything he's said is interpreted as "PR" because he doesn't agree with you.  It's something amusing when folks ask "How can they act like they like the endings?!'  Did it actually occur to people that perhaps they DO like what they produced, even if we don't understand it?  If I write a book and like the ending, I'm not necessarily going to care if you don't like it.  I'm the writer, I put in the effort, so I can like it, even if you don't.  They don't HAVE to acknowledge the endings as "bad" if they don't believe that's the case.  That'd be like admitting to a crime you didn't commit because someones thinks you did.

[The Night Mammoth]

OH MY GOD.

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

This is the first time I've actually gotten angry about this fiasco. I met the ending with silent dismay and conservative disdain, fully supporting retake.

It's strange then that it's the movement itself that has caused me the most anger.

What we HAVE won is acknowledgement from the higher ups. First Hudson, and now the co-founder. It means the issue is important enough to harm their revenue stream, both present and future, and they're concerned over the potential ramifications of alienating most of their core playerbase.

What we haven't won is an honest aplology or even admition that the finale is majorly flawed. Not subjectively flawed, there are a host of random speculative themes people like to bring up that apparently explain everything, but objectively. Plot holes, contradictions without explanation, the lack of an epilogue, inconsistencies, taboo literary conventions, these are things that require attention.

This is a whole lot more PR bs though. Citing unreliable reviews, repeatedly referring to the outraged fans with the plural 'some' , saying they're genuinely surprised by this reaction (I mean, seriously? Are you a bunch of literate morons that you couldn't see this coming?), and the insistent importance of artistic integrity and how well the team have done, are some pretty clear indicators of an attempt to limit the damage in the eyes of neutral parties.

Then there's the ambiguity over what they actually mean to do about. Nothing definite, nothing solid, just some assurance that we should wait until April. Wow, if that's not an attempt to defuse the situation I don't know what is.

This shouldn't be met with quiet respect. As our good friend Mordin on the forums said:

THIS IS THE TIME TO PRESS FORWARD.

Not with vitriol, not with insults against the team, not with flooding the twitter feeds with inane statements.

But really, we need to strike now! Drum up even MORE support for ChipIn, spread the word via twitter and facebook, linking to the google.doc or the Gamefront article, or even JeremyJahns and Angry Joe's videos, tell the press about the positive side of the movement, and for the love of all that is holy, destroy their metacritic user score and Amazon rating! If ever the pressure needed to be kept up, it is now.

[GuardianofSouls]

I don't really believe much of what Ray has to say, even if it is promising; Until it is actually delivered, no one should back down and think this is solved. Especially with Ray puffing up his chest during this and not admitting that any mistakes were made.

This is the same guy who came out during the BioWare Bazaar debacle and claimed it was the year of the fans and they would do so much more for them after excluding everyone but forty-eight U.S. states from their "Huge community event" (See banner below). Then everyone calmed down, backed off and the post by him lost its sticky and was gone. Yes, changing the end is a lot larger promise but I do not trust Ray in the slightest after that.

With that said, be supportive of BioWare (no pitchforks or hockey sticks) but don't let up on them until there is DLC/Expansion/Patch in hand. We don't have to be nasty about it, but the main post should be continuously commented on to make sure BioWare knows we're not going anywhere.

As to people saying "Artistic integrity." This is not a book or a film; This is an interactive medium advertised as being the end of the trilogy and Shepard's story. Simply put, its false advertising. There is no ending to this game. If its meant to be taken literally its non-sensical for dozens of reasons. If its not meant to be taken literally and Shepard is alive at the end of your playthrough then it is obvious the game is not over. Had they not said this was the end of the story and there would be Mass Effect 4 using your save game, I wouldn't have minded the end so much. I would have taken it as how the Assassin's Creed games end, knowing there will be more.

And finally, thank you to all the fans who did post, did get involved, and didn't just brood in a dark corner.

Modifié par GuardianofSouls, 21 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[CRISIS1717]

The movement has won nothing, you only won an expansion on the flawed endings.

[The Almighty Ali]

I agree, while we'll remain vigilant we are also to remain civil.

This has been hard on us and Bioware, it's taken it's toll and it shows.
Blazing up again over what is good news, they pretty much confirmed we'll hear something durring April, isn't going to do much good.

[Splinter Cell 108]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The movement has won nothing, you only won an expansion on the flawed endings.

I don't know where that was said, besides if they do that it would only make things worse. Nobody knows what they're going to give us but at least its something and I doubt it is going to be something that angers everyone even more. 

[Dragoonlordz]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The movement has won nothing, you only won an expansion on the flawed endings.

Ironically they would of won that without the gimmicks and threats of some in the group using constructive feedback en masse instead of threats and stand offs en masse. Still maybe they can calm down now and wait and see what happens. Obviously exception of the hardcore who view it as a holy crusade or power struggle instead of compromise between developer and customer.

[RiouHotaru]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The movement has won nothing, you only won an expansion on the flawed endings.

Ironically they would of won that without the gimmicks and threats of some in the group using constructive feedback en masse instead of threats and stand offs en masse. Still maybe they can calm down now and wait and see what happens. Obviously exception of the hardcore who view it as a holy crusade or power struggle instead of compromise between developer and customer.

This.  I have a hard time believing anyone who states that without the "movement" the endings would've just remained as they were.  But people want to think that unless they shout at the top of their lungs, they won't be heard.

[Dalorm]

ok. apology excepted now fix your mistake.

[Pheonix57]

recentio wrote...

I firmly believe this is NOT something that should be met with hostility, as some Retakers appear to have done...

I think the fact that BW's public statements have changed over time and moved towards the idea of revising the ending is proof that BioWare is listening and responding to what they hear from many fans...

I completely agree with you, and your signature makes me smile 

[ericjdev]

Pheonix57 wrote...

recentio wrote...

I firmly believe this is NOT something that should be met with hostility, as some Retakers appear to have done...

I think the fact that BW's public statements have changed over time and moved towards the idea of revising the ending is proof that BioWare is listening and responding to what they hear from many fans...

I completely agree with you, and your signature makes me smile 

This.

[GuardianofSouls]

RiouHotaru wrote...


1) You ARE a minority.  This isn't an insult, or a belittling comment.  It is a statement of fact.  Even if the people upset with the endings is 100,000 individuals, there are MILLIONS of people who bought Mass Effect 3.  Therefore, while very outspoken, the Retake movement is a minority movement.  Again, not an insult.  The fact Ray recognizes that you're upset is a huge step.

I don't believe that for a minute. Just because "only" one hundred thousand have complained, doesn't mean those millions are in favour of the endings. There would be an easy way to prove this point but there is no way in hell any company would do it; Don't allow a login to multiplayer or even to the EA servers  (main menu) without answering a poll about the endings. You will then see those people are not a minority. And with gameplay data being sent they could even narrow to the poll to make sure only people who finished the game answered.

You are also assuming that in the two weeks from the release, all those millions have finished the game.

Coming out and claiming its a statement of fact with no facts is ridiculous. You have no facts; You're making an assumption that all the people complaining are all the people grieved. When have you ever seen a protest where all those in attendance are all those in support of that cause? See: Egypt. (And that is something far more important than a game.)


Not everyone is going to make a post on the forums or use facebook. Some will just sigh and put the game away; Some just don't have the time or energy. That is probably what BioWare is the most worried about, the people who are on the fringe buying their games who will not after this. As if you look at people like me, I'm still buying their games; and I can't honestly say that I will not buy any more of their games after this, when I haven't even seen whats to come. Usually the big fans, still end up buying the next game.

Modifié par GuardianofSouls, 21 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[The Night Mammoth]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The movement has won nothing, you only won an expansion on the flawed endings.

Ironically they would of won that without the gimmicks and threats of some in the group using constructive feedback en masse instead of threats and stand offs en masse. Still maybe they can calm down now and wait and see what happens. Obviously exception of the hardcore who view it as a holy crusade or power struggle instead of compromise between developer and customer.

This.  I have a hard time believing anyone who states that without the "movement" the endings would've just remained as they were.  But people want to think that unless they shout at the top of their lungs, they won't be heard.

It's both what you shout AND how loudly you shout it. The louder the better, so long as it's constructive. 

[sistersafetypin]

I respect it. But respect, does not an ending make. So...

Hold the line

[Kesak12]

Well at least they have done something about it.

But still Hold the Line!

Modifié par Kesak12, 21 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[pavi132]

The Forbes article was nice. The blog entry, not so much.

[The Night Mammoth]

Except that there's a few problems with this:

1) You ARE a minority.  This isn't an insult, or a belittling comment.  It is a statement of fact.  Even if the people upset with the endings is 100,000 individuals, there are MILLIONS of people who bought Mass Effect 3.  Therefore, while very outspoken, the Retake movement is a minority movement.  Again, not an insult.  The fact Ray recognizes that you're upset is a huge step.

The movement in absolute numbers is a minority. What it represents is far less cut and dry. 

2) Just because "user scores" are low and "professional reviews" are high doesn't mean the users are honest and the publications are not.  I recognize there's bias in the gaming media when it comes to reviews.  We all know that.  But to claim that every single perfect score ME3 got is ONLY the result of bias and/or bribery is patently ridiculous.  Also, "user scores" are almost universally ignored because of things like what happens at Metacritic.  No one can give a constructive review of the game, they just spew whatever vitrol they feel and slap on a 0 for a score.

Certainly not, but user scores are more based on their content rather than their source, like the professional reviews are. 

The universal aclaim is obviously sincere. I personally don't put stock in sources like IGN because they don't actually talk about the ending at all. This is the last game in the trilogy, you'd think there would be a section on it. Few, if any of them, say the ending was a negative. Strange. 

3) I like how everything he's said is interpreted as "PR" because he doesn't agree with you.  It's something amusing when folks ask "How can they act like they like the endings?!'  Did it actually occur to people that perhaps they DO like what they produced, even if we don't understand it?  If I write a book and like the ending, I'm not necessarily going to care if you don't like it.  I'm the writer, I put in the effort, so I can like it, even if you don't.  They don't HAVE to acknowledge the endings as "bad" if they don't believe that's the case.  That'd be like admitting to a crime you didn't commit because someones thinks you did.

A lot of it IS PR. Citing the number of critic reviews which loved the game and glossed over the ending in an article addressing the disent amongst the part of the playerbase that should matter the most is blatant. Repeatedly talking about the importance of an artists integrity is another. Saying that they're genuinely surprised over the reaction is disheartening if it isn't some amount of PR at least. The fact that the co-founder of Bioware made this statement in and itself is a PR move. Telling people to remain civil and wait until April, whilst still remaining ambiguous over their intent is yet more PR. 
A lot of it is done to try and defuse the situation and make it look much less serious in the eyes of neutral parties. 

The only sincere part is that an actual statement, regardless of content, has been made, it can be taken as a sign that Bioware are taking this very seriously. Whilst an attempt at diffusing the situation, the source of this being the co-founder is a strong indicator that the stakes are high.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 21 mars 2012 - 10:37 .

[D3SM0ND0]

Actions speak louder than words, until I see something has been done I'll maybe think better of Bioware. They have lied to us before so its not illogical to think they can lie to us again.

I'm not buying this PR waffle from the Doc. Until some form of patch/DLC has been released giving a satisfactory ending to a trilogy that I have loved right up until the very last moments, I won't be touching another Bioware product again.

I've been loyal since the Kotor days so feel deeply disappointed by the endings. Space magic indeed!

I'm patiently waiting and holding the line. The balls in your court Bioware

[CrazyRah]

I got no trust or faith in Bioware so until they actually stop talking PR and damage control nothing has changed for me. Them acknowledging that fans are not happy with the endings is the least they should do. Hostility is stupid but i sure as heck won't go all nice and friendly on them. I will still treat them with honest and constructive feedback and that won't change. But until something is actually done the situation is the same and i won't stop reminding them that i still wait and that i for now at least still care and got an interest in their products. That might change however depending on how they act

So i will still Hold the Line