258 réponses à ce sujet

[FemmeShep]

Vromrig wrote...

IMO no one has the right to be upset and demand something unless it falls under the Consumer argument of: they promised is this and broke that promise.

Entire post disingenuous, filled with miscategorization. Demands not laid. Instead, dialogue engaged. Players making clear: uninterested in participating in further purchases if this is standard of quality.

Expect high quality, got opposite. Like buying car, finding out made by Playskool.

Sorry, just how I feel.

Because if we cross that line, people can start demanding refunds for books they read, where the ending wasn't something they liked. 

A product was promised to have certain features, and was also advertised to have said features. Consumers bought this product under the assumption it would have them. Then it didn't.

So they have a right to demand this product be fixed.

If you didn't like the ending simply because it didn't have a happy ending - then you have a right to criticize and complain. But not demand. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 06:31 .

[Kirival]

 Respect being given.  There is a difference between holding onto the jury until you see what is actually coming and reacting in a hostile manner.  RetakeME3 has always been based about being positive and constructive so don't let yourselves get sucked into the cynicism.  Thanks to BioWare for their response, I will continue to remain vocal but positive.

[Ultra Prism]

It is still not good enough - Miranda
Retake already respects Bioware and that is why we are demanding better conclusion or continue explaining what in name of Space Magic God was that all in endings

[Kreid]

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

We REALLY should appreciate this, there is a lot of media pieces out there ruined by an awful ending that never got a fix, no matter the fuss. BioWare respect us enough to consider compromising their artistic integrity because we ask them to.
Independently from the endin's quality, so we should respect them as well.

Yes, let's continue to appreciate BioWare, a corporation that sold us a product based on lies, who still fail to acknowledge why fans are upset.

Let's be appreciative that they would grace us with their letters to us. 

It's their product, don't like? Don't buy.
They are not "failing to acknowledge" anything, they know what we want but as rational people, they stick to their guns. It's their work`/b] and [b]their vison, regardlessof whether you like it or not, not only that but at least they have the guts to acknowledge it wasn't perfect and are working to change it.

Complains about the ending are completely understable but some people here are dancing on a very thin border of consumer entitlement.

This guy obviously doesn't understand why people are upset about the ending....

I know very well, I just find ludicrous some peoples' notion of ownership about the product.

So, enlighten me, which audience shoul BioWare pander to, the ones that want a happy ending or the ones pushing for the indoctrination theory? Or wait, maybe they shoould just "rewrite the entire franchise" just because the ending was bad.

I agree that it is a less than satisfactory conclusion, and I want aditional content to make it right as much as anyone here but i  think people are really unapreciative of the effort it suposses to BioWare to actually do what we are asking of them.

[anlk92]

Melchiah109 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Melchiah109 wrote...

Uh...nothing in what was said today is new. We've heard it all either through Twitter, Facebook, or BSN. It was just worded differently today. What concession is it they made exactly?

That we will get more information on this matter in April and that work is being done to rectify the situation, and that it was addressed that they need to take in the criticism of fans and not just play the review score card in their defense.

Mike Gamble already said that first part on his twitter almost as soon as Retake started up. I guess the last part is new, but not really what I'd call progress. If they actually start doing it, I'll be impressed.

Mike Gamble just said they were working on new content. This is the first time it is said that they are working on ending related content.

[Vromrig]

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

From what I understand, they are keeping their ending and adding in some closure scenes to explain things for us. Will this make me happy? Not at all, but it is far better than the ending we currently have. Too bad we can't get an option to persuade the star kid to give us a chance to prove the cycle wrong.  Sorry for the speculation.

Much like complaining about ghosts at end of Return of the King.  Explain they are deus ex machina.  Uninteresting.  Kill tension of battle.  Destroy atmosphere.  Peter Jackson responds by showing more scenes of ghosts killing elephants.

New scenes, does not address source of dissatisfaction.

Modifié par Vromrig, 21 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[Wolven_Soul]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

I agree.

But that's not what's going to happen.
No matter what BioWare ultimately does people are going to still be pissed off that it wasn't exactly what they personally wanted done.

Some people want Indoctrination Theory
Some people want a Bittersweet Ending (done right)
Some people want a super happy ending where they retire and run a Bed & Breakfast with Garrus
Some people want a complete rewrite
Etc.

And regardless of what they do everyone who didn't get exactly what they wanted is going to continue to ****** and moan about it.

You can already see it happening with the reaction to Ray's statement.

There is a difference between what people want, and what they will accept.  For instance, I would love a happy ending where my Shepherd got to spend his remaining days with Liara.  But I would accept, and happily so, an ending where Shepherd dies if it made sense and wrapped up this great trilogy with the ending that it so richly deserves. 

For instance, there is a great amount of fans for series such as "The Demon Wars", by R. A. Salvatore, and "The Song of Ice and Fire", by George Martin.  In both of these series beloved characters die off left and right, but the fanbase remains because of how wonderful the stories, and the endings in the case The Demons Wars, are, and I am willing to bet that Martin will provide a good ending with closure as well when his series is finished. 

Are they endings that everyone wants?  No, but you do not hear the kind of criticism for these series that we are getting for Mass Effect.

[ArkkAngel007]

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

We REALLY should appreciate this, there is a lot of media pieces out there ruined by an awful ending that never got a fix, no matter the fuss. BioWare respect us enough to consider compromising their artistic integrity because we ask them to.
Independently from the endin's quality, so we should respect them as well.

Yes, let's continue to appreciate BioWare, a corporation that sold us a product based on lies, who still fail to acknowledge why fans are upset.

Let's be appreciative that they would grace us with their letters to us. 

It's their product, don't like? Don't buy.
They are not "failing to acknowledge" anything, they know what we want but as rational people, they stick to their guns. It's their work`/b] and [b]their vison, regardlessof whether you like it or not, not only that but at least they have the guts to acknowledge it wasn't perfect and are working to change it.

Complains about the ending are completely understable but some people here are dancing on a very thin border of consumer entitlement.

This guy obviously doesn't understand why people are upset about the ending....

That's a bit unfair to say when he didn't address that at all, and that he specifically says that they are taking in the criticism and feedback on the endings.  They never gave a reason why the fans are upset, and why should they?  The game is still on shelves and is the standing product until the reperations come in.  So BioWare isn't going to be, "Yeah, the endings are horrible because of a, b, and c (no pun intended)."  Why would you do that if you're still selling the game and haven't announced what will address the issues?

We aren't going to get their view on the endings (post-release view) and what went wrong until they can assure fans on how they are fixing the issue.

[count_4]

The problem with Biowares statement is that it still employs the same schemes as the previous ones. Deliberately misunderstanding what people want, claiming the movement to consist only of the most loyal core fans and hiding behind critical praise and the art claim.
While it is a step in the right direction, in itself it is just another tactic to prevent damage. Most of the statement is PR talk and we only got that far because BW is afraid. They still claim the ending to be a proper conclusion.

And while I accept this small offer of peace it won't keep me from keeping up the pressure. Nonetheless we all should remain civil of course.

Hold the line.

[Valk72]

Creid-X wrote...
It's their product, don't like? Don't buy.

Well that's good because i don't plan to buy another game developped by BW.

[Straw_foot]

I couldn't be happier if they really do it, it makes me want to replay the campaign up until the last mission. Lets just hope it's good, and that they're actually going to do something about this instead of just pointing at critic scores while player scores are dismal at best (Amazon, Metacritic)

Modifié par Straw_foot, 21 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[Somath Cegem]

Give me an 'I'm sorry' without the 'but..' at the end and I'll be more than happy to forgive, until then I'll just been keeping my eye open for any actual content.

[FemmeShep]

Creid-X wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

We REALLY should appreciate this, there is a lot of media pieces out there ruined by an awful ending that never got a fix, no matter the fuss. BioWare respect us enough to consider compromising their artistic integrity because we ask them to.
Independently from the endin's quality, so we should respect them as well.

Yes, let's continue to appreciate BioWare, a corporation that sold us a product based on lies, who still fail to acknowledge why fans are upset.

Let's be appreciative that they would grace us with their letters to us. 

It's their product, don't like? Don't buy.
They are not "failing to acknowledge" anything, they know what we want but as rational people, they stick to their guns. It's their work`/b] and [b]their vison, regardlessof whether you like it or not, not only that but at least they have the guts to acknowledge it wasn't perfect and are working to change it.

Complains about the ending are completely understable but some people here are dancing on a very thin border of consumer entitlement.

This guy obviously doesn't understand why people are upset about the ending....

I know very well, I just find ludicrous some peoples' notion of ownership about the product.

So, enlighten me, which audience shoul BioWare pander to, the ones that want a happy ending or the ones pushing for the indoctrination theory? Or wait, maybe they shoould just "rewrite the entire franchise" just because the ending was bad.

I agree that it is a less than satisfactory conclusion, and I want aditional content to make it right as much as anyone here but i  think people are really unapreciative of the effort it suposses to BioWare to actually do what we are asking of them.

Clearly you don't, as you don't seem to have a grasp on the fact that fans were upset at all the broken promises of the final product. 

[Unit-Alpha]

Guys, how do we even know this is DLC?

Could just be a website with a few pages on what happens to who.

If it was DLC, they would have said DLC, not "content initiatives."

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 21 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[Vromrig]

Because if we cross that line, people can start demanding refunds for movies that went to see, and didn't like. The issue for me is pretty clear.

Slippery slope argument. Has no merit. Precedent already set by other companies. Sky did not fall.

Two other companies, three other games, already altered endings. Two based on fan feedback.

Bioware not blazing trails.

[Thorn Harvestar]

Vromrig wrote...

IMO no one has the right to be upset and demand something unless it falls under the Consumer argument of: they promised is this and broke that promise.

Entire post disingenuous, filled with miscategorization. Demands not laid. Instead, dialogue engaged. Players making clear: uninterested in participating in further purchases if this is standard of quality.

Expect high quality, got opposite. Like buying car, finding out made by Playskool.

Hey now, the Cozy Coupe is a fine automobile

[Foxtrotarmy]

Definitely agree, this was a professional play on their part, acknowleding our concerns, the validity of said concerns, and mentioning that they're discussing what to do about it and also very important: giving us a date when we can expect to hear back. The dialogue has started.

We must continue to hold the line, respect the conversation as it happens, and understand that this is a big step in the right direction, albeit just the first one.

[AlexXIV]

FemmeShep wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

I just find it truly bizarre, the kind of reaction fans have to this.

OMG we should be so appreciative and lucky that BioWare writes us. Even thought what they wrote us doesn't actually acknowledge why we are upset.

It's almost, cult like how people are towards BioWare. And this really bothers me, considering they as a company screwed you over as a consumer. Selling their product on promises that never came to fruition. And people are acting like this is okay. Because well..it's BioWare. And we should totally be grateful and honored for whatever they do prior to the release.

What? lol maybe they should be grateful to us, for buying their damn games and paying their salaries.

What are 'we' upset about anyway? I am upset about many things but the 'Retake ME3' movement is upset about much more. There are people who want a happy ending, some want their promised 16 choices, some want that Shepard is alive. I know I just want that the ending makes sense and is not one big joke anymore. That means the synthesis ending needs to go and the organics vs AI ideology needs to go unless they can explain us why an advanced AI would wipe out all organics, and why this reaper AI wanted to prevent it. Because this simply makes no sense. And I hate ending ME with facepalms.

IMO no one has the right to be upset and demand something unless it falls under the Consumer argument of: they promised us this and broke that promise.

If you didn't like the ending, because it wasn't happy - then you have no right to complain and demand it as something owed. The Re-take Mass Effect ending mostly consists of those that believe as consumers, they were wronged by BioWare for promising and advertising a product that did not live up to those promises.

No one seriously (at least), should be demanding something from them because they didn't like the ending from a story point of view. They should be demanding something because the ending didn't reflect what was promised. 

They may not have promised me that the ending is not something stupid that doesn't make sense not only in our but any existing universe and ridicules the whole franchise. But I think I still have entitlement that they do not do that and destroy ME by that. Honestly, people have no right to demand happy endings. They have no right to demand more choices than they got. But they do have a right to not feel like ME is one big joke by the developers. We invested too much to be ridiculed like that. And anyone can see why the synthesis ending is the most pretentious and illogical sci-fi BS ever existed. I mean every living thing becomes a cyborg, half-robot. There are so many things wrong with this idea that I don't even know where to start. That's just BS in a galactic dimenision and the mere fact that it made it into the game is what kind of disturbs my faith into Bioware.

[katamuro]

Kirival wrote...

 Respect being given.  There is a difference between holding onto the jury until you see what is actually coming and reacting in a hostile manner.  RetakeME3 has always been based about being positive and constructive so don't let yourselves get sucked into the cynicism.  Thanks to BioWare for their response, I will continue to remain vocal but positive.

Second this. I will not be silenced but I will be civil as I have been,

[Lianaar]

RedShft wrote...

This doesn't contradict my statement, because I made two different statements, which are not one.
One statement is: they earned the points. The game was good in many aspects. It was involving enough to keep you here on the forums. If the game sucked, people wouldn't be invested and wouldn't write here. There have been tonnes of bad games out in the world and their forums aren't buzzling with negative criticism. Because they weren't good enough to evoke a strong reaction.

The other statement explained what constructive criticms is and what I hope to see on the forums instead of simple BW hate threads.

That's all. I don't see how it contradicts what you wrote. Maybe we speak past each other. On that note, I don't want to hijack the topic, as I do like the topic for what it is. I am happy to talk about our topic elsewhere or in private both.

[FemmeShep]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

We REALLY should appreciate this, there is a lot of media pieces out there ruined by an awful ending that never got a fix, no matter the fuss. BioWare respect us enough to consider compromising their artistic integrity because we ask them to.
Independently from the endin's quality, so we should respect them as well.

Yes, let's continue to appreciate BioWare, a corporation that sold us a product based on lies, who still fail to acknowledge why fans are upset.

Let's be appreciative that they would grace us with their letters to us. 

It's their product, don't like? Don't buy.
They are not "failing to acknowledge" anything, they know what we want but as rational people, they stick to their guns. It's their work`/b] and [b]their vison, regardlessof whether you like it or not, not only that but at least they have the guts to acknowledge it wasn't perfect and are working to change it.

Complains about the ending are completely understable but some people here are dancing on a very thin border of consumer entitlement.

This guy obviously doesn't understand why people are upset about the ending....

That's a bit unfair to say when he didn't address that at all, and that he specifically says that they are taking in the criticism and feedback on the endings.  They never gave a reason why the fans are upset, and why should they?  The game is still on shelves and is the standing product until the reperations come in.  So BioWare isn't going to be, "Yeah, the endings are horrible because of a, b, and c (no pun intended)."  Why would you do that if you're still selling the game and haven't announced what will address the issues?

We aren't going to get their view on the endings (post-release view) and what went wrong until they can assure fans on how they are fixing the issue.

Maybe I was too harsh on Ray.

But I guess my feelings are, I'm a bit baffled why people are acting the way they are about what he said. I do not feel BioWare deserve mad respect. It's good they did this. But it's not something to worship them for. To say: oh well, that's it. We need to stop voicing our complaints, because BioWare clearly is looking at the situation.

And that's how I feel people are acting. And to me, that's bizarre. 

[Strange Aeons]

He never said that the content would add anything to the ending, nor did they admit that there even was a problem with the ending rooted in the more fundamental issues of player choice, tone, and internal consistency.

All they acknowledged was an issue of "clarity," a disconnect between the opinions of professional reviewers (who presumably "got it") and fans (who presumably didn't); and all they offered was that the new content it would "answer questions."

If they really believe that, they're still missing the point.

Modifié par Strange Aeons, 21 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[mpgeist]

Make no mistake, I do respect Bioware. I wouldn't be here otherwise. I just think they are way off the mark here and I'm hoping they'll acknowledge the real issues and correct them. Until that day, they'll get all the criticisms. ALL OF THEM.

Modifié par mpgeist, 21 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[Sett101]

OK simple facts.
BSN = only fans and game owners. Other media is not talking to your fans it's talking to the world so they think you are reaching out to fans. Notice no statements here, lots of tweets, facebook interviews with 3rd party?

"I'm sorry" = I'm sorry, "PR talk I feel bad for our fans not getting what they wanted and we didn't expect this" in no way = I'm sorry.

"We're talking" = Nothing to us at all. Example I just talked to my dog about ME3 she agrees food is good.

Until he tells US he is sorry and they understand what we are saying by repeating it to us. Then say we will fix these issues and list them, they have said nothing. Look up deceptive speech reread what he said.

I respect results, I respect direct contact and face to face problem solving. Third party glibness I get free on C-Span.

[Wolven_Soul]

mghjr6 wrote...

The funny thing is that instead of linking to Ray's actual statement, you're linked to the Forbes article, which critiques the statement with a skeptic slant. The statement itself was better than nothing, and it was an acknowledgment that something is wrong. Standard, careful PR wording.

But as I said, the article you're linked to critiques this, and does a very good job of it.

But the statement does not aknowledge that anything is wrong.  They just say that some fans are disappointed.  Then he goes on to point out all the perfect review scores, that he stands by the team and what they created.  There is no admission that they messed up.

I am not saying that the statement is not a promising thing, but it is not by any means a strong promise.