258 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

Agreed. However I still doubt that the biggest problem imo, the lack of our decisions mattering (and being rendered useless actually) will be addressed. Actually I get the feeling they still don't understand why some people are upset, and considering the glaring plot holes and obvious use of a dues ex machina, as well as empty promises, that's a little disconcerting.

I'm a little worried they're just going to add a yellow-colored explosion that results in a happy ending instead of actually addressing much of the concerns, but I guess all we can do is wait and see.

[Unit-Alpha]

Strange Aeons wrote...

He never said that the content would add anything to the ending, nor did they admit that there even was a problem with the ending rooted in the more fundamental issues of player choice, tone, and internal consistency.

All they acknowledged was an issue of "clarity," a disconnect between the opinions of professional reviewers and fans; and all they offered was that the new content it would "answer questions."

If they really believe that, they're still missing the point.

Thank you.

[crimzontearz]

uh...did you read the mass effect twitter after?

[MintyCool]

Change has come! WOOOOT!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10396384

[FemmeShep]

AlexXIV wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

I just find it truly bizarre, the kind of reaction fans have to this.

OMG we should be so appreciative and lucky that BioWare writes us. Even thought what they wrote us doesn't actually acknowledge why we are upset.

It's almost, cult like how people are towards BioWare. And this really bothers me, considering they as a company screwed you over as a consumer. Selling their product on promises that never came to fruition. And people are acting like this is okay. Because well..it's BioWare. And we should totally be grateful and honored for whatever they do prior to the release.

What? lol maybe they should be grateful to us, for buying their damn games and paying their salaries.

What are 'we' upset about anyway? I am upset about many things but the 'Retake ME3' movement is upset about much more. There are people who want a happy ending, some want their promised 16 choices, some want that Shepard is alive. I know I just want that the ending makes sense and is not one big joke anymore. That means the synthesis ending needs to go and the organics vs AI ideology needs to go unless they can explain us why an advanced AI would wipe out all organics, and why this reaper AI wanted to prevent it. Because this simply makes no sense. And I hate ending ME with facepalms.

IMO no one has the right to be upset and demand something unless it falls under the Consumer argument of: they promised us this and broke that promise.

If you didn't like the ending, because it wasn't happy - then you have no right to complain and demand it as something owed. The Re-take Mass Effect ending mostly consists of those that believe as consumers, they were wronged by BioWare for promising and advertising a product that did not live up to those promises.

No one seriously (at least), should be demanding something from them because they didn't like the ending from a story point of view. They should be demanding something because the ending didn't reflect what was promised. 

They may not have promised me that the ending is not something stupid that doesn't make sense not only in our but any existing universe and ridicules the whole franchise. But I think I still have entitlement that they do not do that and destroy ME by that. Honestly, people have no right to demand happy endings. They have no right to demand more choices than they got. But they do have a right to not feel like ME is one big joke by the developers. We invested too much to be ridiculed like that. And anyone can see why the synthesis ending is the most pretentious and illogical sci-fi BS ever existed. I mean every living thing becomes a cyborg, half-robot. There are so many things wrong with this idea that I don't even know where to start. That's just BS in a galactic dimenision and the mere fact that it made it into the game is what kind of disturbs my faith into Bioware.

Totally agree. Like I said, I'm not saying people don't have the right to complain. Everyone does, regardless of why you have an issue with the game.

But my thing is, the only way to legitimately have a claim to demand they fix it, is the consumer argument. The fact that they promised certain features, and didn't deliver them. We bought this product under this advertisement, and it didn't have what they promised.

[Myrmedus]

Agreed.

The people going crazy are annoying me a bit.

It's true we should be keep up the heat, sure, but you can still do that AND acknowledge the post at the same time.

[Mad-Hamlet]

In my opinion there have been no concessions, anything about future developments were always on the books. Information in relation to what those future products are to be would be a form of concession.
I also do not think the label courage should be given to the ME team for taking the criticism. You make something and throw it out to the public it's par for the course. Additionally, constructive, polite criticisms is nonsense (Barring Ad Hominem attacks and even those have a place, not here of course, but they do).
I think the Forbes article said it best, If all the comments had been merely constructive and polite with a genteel and concerned manner this response would never have occurred.
Out and out vitriol though is unnecessary- and somewhat counterproductive.

Nothing has been resolved I think, allusions have been made but no real information as of yet and so I urge all of us to Hold The Line.
Do it with decorum, grace but firm resolution. Understand your positions, your reasons, ignore trolls (Or eat them, mmmm....) draw your own conclusions if you must regarding the latest developments but do not make any final decisions vis a vie-

Yay we win, oooh, shiny!'

Or

It's over. It's all over. Oooh, Shiny!

Hold the Line.

[RedShft]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Guys, how do we even know this is DLC?

Could just be a website with a few pages on what happens to who.

If it was DLC, they would have said DLC, not "content initiatives."

Good point. We know nothing.

[ChampDude]

I'll agree, I'm glad they are taking us seriously. I can tell we're putting them in a difficult situation, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place. If they can take our feedback and implement it properly, they will have won back my trust. Until then, I remain optimistic, albeit cautious.

Modifié par ChampDude, 21 mars 2012 - 06:38 .

[Pepitobenito]

 It's good, yes, but stings of disappointment as well.

First off, this all but demolishes the InDoc theory, something that was creative and, in my eyes, by far the best explaination for all the craziness that goes on in those last 20 minutes of the game.  Second, Bioware handled this poorly.  They made those unhappy with the ending look like the bad guy.  They continue to hide behind the paper-thin shield of arguing that this is art, and artists have a right to their artistic beliefs.

But Mass Effect has never once in the 7 year history of developers discussing it EVER been plugged as art.  Right from the beginning, they described it as something of an homage to science fiction classics, both films and TV shows.  The first game pretty much nailed that perfectly.  The following games, while changing their tune slightly, stuck to the basic principle and were excellent...right up until the end of 3.  Now they suddenly and completely decide to do a 180 on what Mass Effect is all about.  30-40 hours into the game, Bioware decides Mass Effect is no longer about classic science fiction themes, character arcs, or choice and consequence.  All of a sudden, Mass Effect is about sending some existential, metaphorical message via 'art'.  

No.  I do not buy it.  

[Lost Cipher]

No one should viciously attack another person without cause. Generally cause is a life or death situation... Seeing as how this is a video game and not life or death, we should be respectful.

However anyone who thinks that the statement released was anything more than PR damage control is grasping at straws. People are upset, returning both the physical and digital copies of the game. Some are just not buying it. More articles pop up questing the validity of the 'artisitic' defense. The fad on youtube this month; explain why the Mass Effect 3 ending is bad.

EA is trying to quell the flames of discontent.

[cynicalsaint1]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

I agree.

But that's not what's going to happen.
No matter what BioWare ultimately does people are going to still be pissed off that it wasn't exactly what they personally wanted done.

Some people want Indoctrination Theory
Some people want a Bittersweet Ending (done right)
Some people want a super happy ending where they retire and run a Bed & Breakfast with Garrus
Some people want a complete rewrite
Etc.

And regardless of what they do everyone who didn't get exactly what they wanted is going to continue to ****** and moan about it.

You can already see it happening with the reaction to Ray's statement.

There is a difference between what people want, and what they will accept.  For instance, I would love a happy ending where my Shepherd got to spend his remaining days with Liara.  But I would accept, and happily so, an ending where Shepherd dies if it made sense and wrapped up this great trilogy with the ending that it so richly deserves. 

For instance, there is a great amount of fans for series such as "The Demon Wars", by R. A. Salvatore, and "The Song of Ice and Fire", by George Martin.  In both of these series beloved characters die off left and right, but the fanbase remains because of how wonderful the stories, and the endings in the case The Demons Wars, are, and I am willing to bet that Martin will provide a good ending with closure as well when his series is finished. 

Are they endings that everyone wants?  No, but you do not hear the kind of criticism for these series that we are getting for Mass Effect.

I honestly just don't have faith that most people have reasonable expectation as to what they'll be willing to accept at this point.

Go ahead - look at the way people are picking apart Ray Muzyka's statement and are already pissed off that he didn't say exactly what they wanted him to.

I mean people are honestly mad that he didn't say "Yeah the ending was complete @#$!"
I mean in what @#$!ing universe do people think that this is a thing that would ever actually happen?

People are going to have to accept that whatever BioWare does is going HAVE to be a compromise.
And from what I'm seeing on these boards, a lot of people simply aren't willing to do that.

[JackHallin]

I support OP. This is great. I'm glad to see BioWare both stand by its team and product while admitting that fan opinion really matters and they are taking it seriously.

Hold the line! But, let's not be jerks...

[Deschi]

I always respected them and hope more would also do. It's one thing to feel dissapointed but another to act just in a rude way. There are still human beings behind all this and everyone deserves respect. Critic is always OK but keep it constructive.

If the RUDE kind of ****storm won't end you don't need to be a psychologist to anticipate that a lot of people who work there will feel insulted and will become demotivated.

[FemmeShep]

Myrmedus wrote...

Agreed.

The people going crazy are annoying me a bit.

It's true we should be keep up the heat, sure, but you can still do that AND acknowledge the post at the same time.

I see it both ways. Those that are worshipping BioWare for doing this, as if it's some Olive Branch or great gift to us, is ridiculous. While it's good BioWare is speaking out, lets not try to dress this up as some gift to the fans. This was their job and duty to do it.

And for that I say, good on you BioWare. You are doing a good job as a company (sort of). You are doing what you are supposed to do. Keep on this path.

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 06:41 .

[Wolven_Soul]

Lianaar wrote...

Tygur wrote...
It is nice to hear SOMETHING, however I seriously dislike their constant mention of review scores.

Why? They earned those scores. If those scores were not earned you wouldn't be here, you would just forget about the game as a whole. Acknowledgement should be given, where it is due. Constructive criticism shows what is done well, lists what should have been done differently and maybe list possible alternatives.

I think that the fact that we are all here voicing our disappointment is proof enough that those scores were not earned.  I for one would not give this game a perfect score even if the endings were wonderful.

[Swisspease]

They are listening. This is good. Everyone remain being civil and continue to nicely supply Bioware with what kind of things you would like to add and or change.

As always holding the line in the memory of Marauder Sheilds

[Melchiah109]

anlk92 wrote...

Melchiah109 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Melchiah109 wrote...

Uh...nothing in what was said today is new. We've heard it all either through Twitter, Facebook, or BSN. It was just worded differently today. What concession is it they made exactly?

That we will get more information on this matter in April and that work is being done to rectify the situation, and that it was addressed that they need to take in the criticism of fans and not just play the review score card in their defense.

Mike Gamble already said that first part on his twitter almost as soon as Retake started up. I guess the last part is new, but not really what I'd call progress. If they actually start doing it, I'll be impressed.

Mike Gamble just said they were working on new content. This is the first time it is said that they are working on ending related content.

He made a tweet specifically about the fan reactions being different if they knew what they were doing, though I can't seem to find it now. Having never really used twitter I don't know if it's possible to delete them or not. I'm guessing so.

[mghjr6]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

mghjr6 wrote...

The funny thing is that instead of linking to Ray's actual statement, you're linked to the Forbes article, which critiques the statement with a skeptic slant. The statement itself was better than nothing, and it was an acknowledgment that something is wrong. Standard, careful PR wording.

But as I said, the article you're linked to critiques this, and does a very good job of it.

But the statement does not aknowledge that anything is wrong.  They just say that some fans are disappointed.  Then he goes on to point out all the perfect review scores, that he stands by the team and what they created.  There is no admission that they messed up.

I am not saying that the statement is not a promising thing, but it is not by any means a strong promise.

I agree. Wasn't meaning to suggest otherwise.

[Jull3]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but meh, so if I repeat something, well you get more than one dose then. We should appreciate what they're doing, yes, but on the same hand, we shouldn't let up. Keep campaigning, and we need to keep up the hard pressure. This is something, sure

BUT this is not a clear indication as to WHAT we want. We want a new ending to replace the plothole filled, no sense making end we were given. If the ending is indoc theory, and we get to see Shep wake up to a war torn earth and the reapers leaving earth, then I can say good going.

Until then, keep up the heat, and as Grunt said, "Offer one hand, but arm the other."

[Warhawk7137]

It's something.

Look, if it's just a bit more content and some extra cutscenes explaining some stuff and closing up some plot holes, I'm happy.  I'm not desperate for a complete overhaul.

I don't want the ending to be exactly the way I would have done it, I just want it to be better than it is.

[Somath Cegem]

Wait, so I should respect a massive "We're sorry about the endings but..." wrapped in basic PR jargon. Yeah no, if your product does not do what you say it does then you should be apologetic.
A vacuum cleaner that only blows is a mis-advertised product.
A Gamecube that only plays PS2 games is a mis-advertised product.
A game where you have been promised widely different endings based on you choices over all 3 games that instead boils down to a A B C choice that has little to no bearing on previous choices is a mis-advertised product.

Do I deserve them to fix this, actually no, it's up to them to do that though I am hopeful that we may end up with more closure.
Do I deserve an apology for basically being lied to and the sheer disappointment I felt when I realised that lie, yes, yes I bloody well do, all of us do. Even a "I'm sorry, we thought you would like it" is preferable to 2 "Sorry but our reviews are still saying the game is awesome" we've had so far.

Respect? Ha, show me some first, then we'll talk.

EDIT, some poor wording changed.

Modifié par Somath Cegem, 21 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[Valk72]

MintyCool wrote...

Change has come! WOOOOT!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10396384

A troll has come! WOOOOT!

[Vaktathi]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

I agree.

But that's not what's going to happen.
No matter what BioWare ultimately does people are going to still be pissed off that it wasn't exactly what they personally wanted done.

Some people want Indoctrination Theory
Some people want a Bittersweet Ending (done right)
Some people want a super happy ending where they retire and run a Bed & Breakfast with Garrus
Some people want a complete rewrite
Etc.

And regardless of what they do everyone who didn't get exactly what they wanted is going to continue to ****** and moan about it.

You can already see it happening with the reaction to Ray's statement.

There is a difference between what people want, and what they will accept.  For instance, I would love a happy ending where my Shepherd got to spend his remaining days with Liara.  But I would accept, and happily so, an ending where Shepherd dies if it made sense and wrapped up this great trilogy with the ending that it so richly deserves. 

For instance, there is a great amount of fans for series such as "The Demon Wars", by R. A. Salvatore, and "The Song of Ice and Fire", by George Martin.  In both of these series beloved characters die off left and right, but the fanbase remains because of how wonderful the stories, and the endings in the case The Demons Wars, are, and I am willing to bet that Martin will provide a good ending with closure as well when his series is finished. 

Are they endings that everyone wants?  No, but you do not hear the kind of criticism for these series that we are getting for Mass Effect.

I honestly just don't have faith that most people have reasonable expectation as to what they'll be willing to accept at this point.

Go ahead - look at the way people are picking apart Ray Muzyka's statement and are already pissed off that he didn't say exactly what they wanted him to.

I mean people are honestly mad that he didn't say "Yeah the ending was complete @#$!"
I mean in what @#$!ing universe do people think that this is a thing that would ever actually happen?

People are going to have to accept that whatever BioWare does is going HAVE to be a compromise.
And from what I'm seeing on these boards, a lot of people simply aren't willing to do that.

There's a difference between compromise and PR speak. What we got was a "we heard you, we don't understand why you don't like it but we get that you don't, we're really awesome, and all these places really liked the game, and you need to be nice"

It doesn't show they got the message as to *why* people dislike the ending, and comes off extremely defensive/deflective. It's hard to compromise when the other party, despite running an organization known for excellence, is acting dumbfounded and confused as to why people have an issue and uses professional gaming site reviews (at least *one* of which had an employee in the game as a character and has released several editorials in vigorous and rude defense of Bioware's ending) as justification, when they've had weeks of non-stop forum activity and non-headline-gaming news sites explaining in highly detailed manners exactly what people have an issue with and why.

[Polat995]

Sorry, they will add content but not about ending. They still think that ending is very beautiful.