258 réponses à ce sujet

[Pamine]

It's good that they listen, and for those wishing to give them more chances then great. Personally I have no doubt it'll be paid DLC, and I'm not giving them any more money for this franchise.

[Etereoooo]

Small concession.
Not enought.
Hold the line.

[CosmicWonderer]

I will believe it when I see it. If the so called "content" Bioware releases that doesn't address the ending issue, then it's nothing but useless.

Hold the Line

[omntt]

This is just a step. We don't like the ending for many different reasons, and our feedback will be vital in the next time to see what will be improved and if there will be room for changes.
We will hold the line.

[Sainta117]

recentio wrote...

Source: www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/21/bioware-co-founder-apologizes-to-fans-for-the-mass-effect-3-ending-sort-of/

In short, BW have stated they are going to add some content to the ending. What exactly that conent will entail is unknown to me at this time. However, I firmly believe this is NOT something that should be met with hostility, as some Retakers appear to have done.

My interpretation of "constructive criticism" is I think somewhat different from the author of the linked article. I see it to mean "criticism that is not insulting and can be used constructively." I think the fact that BW's public statements have changed over time and moved towards the idea of revising the ending is proof that BioWare is listening and responding to what they hear from many fans.

Is it everything I personally had hoped for? No. But it is something. For me, that means it is not time to sit back and relax but also that it is not time to greet a concession with negativity. Speculation, sure. But not outright negativity. They have reached a hand out, and I'd prefer not to bit it, personally. That will get us nowhere fast.

In my opinion, the response from Dr. Muzyka is good thing generally, but given the discrepancy between Bioware's words and actions in the past, I'm not completely satisfied that it's a committment to fix the problems. Time will tell. For now, I'm cautiously optimistic that at least somebody over there "gets it." We'll see. Until then, I intend to continue to post and respond on the topic in as constructive a way as I can.

[Dragoonlordz]

There will always be a fringe element in every group that will never back down, never stop even if got everything they ever want. So obsessed with "sticking it to the man" and power hungry that they fail to realise in life compromises are made to try to keep everyone happy. I come to think that some member of retake just have not reached the stage in life yet that in order for everyone to get along and in order to progress in life compromises have to be made, the world really does not revolve around them. Those kinds will never be happy regardless of the result.

What we have from Bioware (more accurately you since I liked the endings) is simply a statement that says they will be creating extra content to bring closure and exposition to those who want it. This will be in the form of DLC not changes to the core game and that is the compromise. People should either realise they were met half way or leave because they are never going to get through life or relationships if expect everyone including Bioware will do exactly as they demand all the time, so learn to accept compromise or be in for one hell of a miserable, struggling, bitter lifetime.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[Gedgehog]

Guys for goodness sake stop the hate! There is no way that you or I or anyone else can know what is going on behind closed doors. Keep it civil and respect that they are thinking this through. No sense in whining like a spoilt teenager, I'm sure they are doing all they can. If they fail to do so, then pile on the pressure. As it stands though, back off a bit and give them some breathing space. They know the score and are aware of the issues raised. I'm also sure that they know just how many people hate the ending. You just need to look at Amazon (even UK) for the evidence. They have to use a certain language to keep their creditors / stockbrokers happy and out of the loop. If their creditors and co are unhappy, the company MASSIVELY suffers. Well, that's my theory anyway.

Adam out.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Menalaos1971 wrote...

Bioware has said they are considering making a small concession, maybe. They have DONE nothing, yet, though. Actually, the only thing they've done is delayed doing anything for up to 6 weeks, at which time they could just as easily delay again.

To what end? Nobody will be less mad if we get strung along and Bioware has savvy enough people to know that. Right now, they're trying to find a middle ground, which is a lot of movement from where they were only a few days ago. They have, essentially, comitted to doing something at this point, but that something is non-specific at this point. They've also given themselves a deadline in order to give us an update. These are important steps and very positive for us! Soon it will be our turn to listen and see what we think about their proposed solution. Keep on holding the line!

I'm sure their PR team is working under the assumption that like most "movements" if you string it out most of the supporters will give up.  Yes, the ultra-passionate core will never give in, but if they convince most that something will happen eventually and they move in, then Bioware wins.

That's not actually how effective PR works. I assume Bioware has a competent PR team, which means they are fully aware that making promises they do not intend to keep is a VERY bad PR move. They also know that you can string people along until most give up, but most of those people will also give up on the company - they don't want that. One of Bioware's big assets in the video game world (and the reason EA keeps giving them big titles to handle) is because they have incredibly strong brand loyalty ratings. They're up there with Valve and Blizzard when it comes to customer loyalty. They also know that this ending situation is putting that huge asset at risk and they will not risk a mis-step here.

One of the elements Bioware has had a hard time communicating to fans during all of this is one of their values that is in conflict with their "listen to the fans" value. Bioware views their work as "artistic creations" and rightly so! This value is in conflict with their "listen to the fans" value because the vision of the artist does not always match the vision of the consumer of the art. Thus, some of Bioware's rhetoric has focused on finding a "middle ground" where the artists can feel that their vision is still largely satisfied and the fans can get the emotionally satisfying ending they are hoping for. This is another reason I keep trying to explain that this is more of a collaboration: our goal is to bring Bioware around to our way of thinking, not fight with them.

[circe]

I agree with the OP. This new statement is definitely a shift and while it's not remotely close to what we'd like to see, we all need to realize this is going to take time, especially if they're going to give us the quality we're demanding. We need to stay civil. No one's asking you to kiss Casey Hudson, but give them a chance to try to fix this before you (I'm talking to no one in particular, just vast generalities) talk about lynching anyone from Bioware. They make it easy to be bitterly cynical, but again, let's try to keep it civil.

Hold the Line.

[Trojan_33]

Have y'all REALLY looked at the original statement?

Read the statement from them below and you will see that they aren't going to change a thing if they can get away with it. Examples: "criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion", "we will listen and respond to constructive criticism" (assumed only), "we will not support or respond to destructive commentary". These basically say that anyone who thinks they failed at the ending are nerdraging fanboys, that they are going to provide explanations for their ending(s) and give us some closure(aka not changing, just explaining it to us simpletons), they will only listen to positive posts so if you said the ending was horrible you will be ignored.

"Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to destructive commentary."

Modifié par Trojan_33, 21 mars 2012 - 07:20 .

[Athlonis1]

It was a small thing. A token response. However it didn't clearly state much of anything really....

I'm not a raving lunatic, but I will not concede anything yet. Not until we get a clear apology. Not until we get this whole mess made right. "Additional closure" DLC is not what we've asked for. Don't back down. Keep holding the line. But do it with civility.

[Thorn Harvestar]

Trojan_33 wrote...

Have y'all REALLY looked at the original statement?

Read the statement from them below and you will see that they aren't going to change a thing if they can get away with it. Examples: "criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion", "we will listen and respond to constructive criticism" (assumed only), "we will not support or respond to destructive commentary". These basically say that anyone who thinks they failed at the ending are nerdraging fanboys, that they are going to provide explanations for their ending(s) and give us some closure(aka not changing, just explaining it to us simpletons), they will only listen to positive posts so if you said the ending was horrible you will be ignored.

"Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive. We listen and will respond to constructive criticism, but much as we will not tolerate individual attacks on our team members, we will not support or respond to destructive commentary."

There were some vulgar personal attacks at their writers and staff.

That is what Ray was addressing in this section, in my opinion. And he is right to denounce that behavior.

He continues to ask for thoughtful criticism. That is what we should be providing.

[MrBurntToast]

Our first battle is won. Bioware has made concessions, and I'm giving them credit for it. But I'm going to hold the line until this plays out in full. After all, Bioware has made promises before. Beware the olive branch.

[Mythosaeon]

I disagree. This is the typical situation of a material provider failing to create what was asked for/expected/desired etc. however, instead of rectifiying the issues they attempt to use convoluted explanations that the end product does comply or stating that they know better and that those questioning just don't "get it."

In more normal business releationships with advertising, architecture or other service providers, those types of firms are simply labeled as 'difficult to work with' and avoided in the future. Bioware has no contract fans can hold them to, though we can certainly choose to avoid them in the future and refuse to provide favorable recommendations for their work. Very likely they've seen intial sales come to a crashing halt as reviews and news outlets all over the world have picked up the controversy.

Bioware's reaching out so far has all the appearances of enlighted self-interest - but with no actual substance as of yet.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There will always be a fringe element in every group that will never back down, never stop even if got everything they ever want. So obsessed with "sticking it to the man" and power hungry that they fail to realise in life compromises are made to try to keep everyone happy. I come to think that some member of retake just have not reached the stage in life yet that in order for everyone to get along and in order to progress in life compromises have to be made, the world really does not revolve around them. Those kinds will never be happy regardless of the result.

What we have from Bioware (more accurately you since I liked the endings) is simply a statement that says they will be creating extra content to bring closure and exposition to those who want it. This will be in the form of DLC not changes to the core game and that is the compromise. People should either realise they were met half way or leave because they are never going to get through life or relationships if expect everyone including Bioware will do exactly as they demand all the time, so learn to accept compromise or be in for one hell of a miserable, struggling, bitter lifetime.

I will be very happy as long as they make a good-faith effort to address the ending. I'm glad you liked the ending even though I did not. I really wanted to like it... And you're right, none of us will get everything we want, but this release shows a lot of promise.

[Thargorichiban]

This isn't anything concrete yet. I'll believe something is being done when there is proof something is being done.

Do any of you remember the big Mass Effect: Deception debacle?

Remember how they said future versions would be corrected? Remember what they've done so far?

Absolutely nothing. No retailer has received any word about future versions. They claimed to be fixing it to stop the dissenting opinion from making itself be heard. Now that movement is dead and Bioware has no incentive to correct their faulty product (Deception).

I wouldn't let them do the same with this movement. Learn from recent history.

Hold the line.

[Wolven_Soul]

I honestly just don't have faith that most people have reasonable expectation as to what they'll be willing to accept at this point.

Go ahead - look at the way people are picking apart Ray Muzyka's statement and are already pissed off that he didn't say exactly what they wanted him to.

I mean people are honestly mad that he didn't say "Yeah the ending was complete @#$!"
I mean in what @#$!ing universe do people think that this is a thing that would ever actually happen?

People are going to have to accept that whatever BioWare does is going HAVE to be a compromise.
And from what I'm seeing on these boards, a lot of people simply aren't willing to do that.

I understand, but we do have some precedence.  Todd Howard openly admitted that he and Bethesda messed up in regards to Fallout 3's ending. 

[Dragoonlordz]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There will always be a fringe element in every group that will never back down, never stop even if got everything they ever want. So obsessed with "sticking it to the man" and power hungry that they fail to realise in life compromises are made to try to keep everyone happy. I come to think that some member of retake just have not reached the stage in life yet that in order for everyone to get along and in order to progress in life compromises have to be made, the world really does not revolve around them. Those kinds will never be happy regardless of the result.

What we have from Bioware (more accurately you since I liked the endings) is simply a statement that says they will be creating extra content to bring closure and exposition to those who want it. This will be in the form of DLC not changes to the core game and that is the compromise. People should either realise they were met half way or leave because they are never going to get through life or relationships if expect everyone including Bioware will do exactly as they demand all the time, so learn to accept compromise or be in for one hell of a miserable, struggling, bitter lifetime.

I will be very happy as long as they make a good-faith effort to address the ending. I'm glad you liked the ending even though I did not. I really wanted to like it... And you're right, none of us will get everything we want, but this release shows a lot of promise.

My statement is back up with such elements as this.



They will not change the ending but for those who are not as hardcore or obsessed with getting everything you want,a compromise being enough regarding additional exposition and answer to your space magic plus relating to what happened to your companions and why they acted the way they did and what happened to the races left around Earth etc.. Will be part of this additional content. I fail to see why that would be so offensive. Life is about compromise and having been reading and attacked many times myself about the issues so many have this goes half way at least to resolving it for many of the ones I talked to including all the way resolution for others. There will always be some who want core game changes but Bioware does not do that, they have and always will add extra content to resolve issues as shown with Dragon Age 2. I consider that sort of thing fair and reasonable way to handle such feedback and criticism.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 mars 2012 - 07:43 .

[Sfox1989]

 Agreed with the OP. This is a great step forward and even if Bioware hasn't 'conceded' anything or admit mistakes they have taken notice rather then brushing it off as they had in past tweets etc. No, the Retake ME movement is not over yet but people need to calm down. 

This is a step forward.

Alot of these angry remarks after this morning's statement are getting a little too 'aggresive' for lack of a better word. Yes this is a PR statement. But this is also the first time they have given some indication that they are addressing the endings in some way through ingame content. Don't  start turning into whining brats and demand more and more. Hold the line--RESPECTFULLY--and keep up the pressure as we have been. Calm and collected. Do not turn into the people many websites/news sources have been calling us just because Bioware has released an offical statement that doesn't cater to our every whim and desire we want from the ending. 

This is but the first step in our goal--and it is a step in the right direction.

Hold the line!

[Unit-Alpha]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There will always be a fringe element in every group that will never back down, never stop even if got everything they ever want. So obsessed with "sticking it to the man" and power hungry that they fail to realise in life compromises are made to try to keep everyone happy. I come to think that some member of retake just have not reached the stage in life yet that in order for everyone to get along and in order to progress in life compromises have to be made, the world really does not revolve around them. Those kinds will never be happy regardless of the result.

What we have from Bioware (more accurately you since I liked the endings) is simply a statement that says they will be creating extra content to bring closure and exposition to those who want it. This will be in the form of DLC not changes to the core game and that is the compromise. People should either realise they were met half way or leave because they are never going to get through life or relationships if expect everyone including Bioware will do exactly as they demand all the time, so learn to accept compromise or be in for one hell of a miserable, struggling, bitter lifetime.

I will be very happy as long as they make a good-faith effort to address the ending. I'm glad you liked the ending even though I did not. I really wanted to like it... And you're right, none of us will get everything we want, but this release shows a lot of promise.

My statement is back up with such elements as this.



They will not change the ending but for those who are not as hardcore or obsessed with getting everything you want,a compromise being enough regarding additional exposition and answer to your space magic plus relating to what happened to your companions and why they acted the way they did and what happened to the races left around Earth etc.. Will be part of this additional content. I fail to see why that would be so offensive. Life is about compromise and having been reading and attacked many times myself about the issues so many have this goes half way at least to resolving it for many of the ones I talked to including all the way resolution for others. There will always be some who want core game changes but Bioware does not do that, they have and always will add extra content to resolve issues as shown with Dragon Age 2. I consider that sort of thing fair and reasonable way to handle such feedback and criticism.

I'm willing and ready to compromise if it leads to closure.

[Wolven_Soul]

Lianaar wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...
I think that the fact that we are all here voicing our disappointment is proof enough that those scores were not earned.  I for one would not give this game a perfect score even if the endings were wonderful.

And here I do have a request. There are things you hate being done to you, which comes through from the statement, but you still easily do it to others without consideration.

You want to be respected, you don't want to be called minority, despite none having real means to know how players as a whole see the game's ending. No, polls are not representative of all players. They show that a LOTS of people are upset. But they don't prove all people or most people are upset. You want to be heard, you want to be appeased and not talked down to.

Then, what you want to be done to you, do it to others. Respect them, hear them out, don't talk down to them. This thread is about that. Let's continue with the style of the OP instead, please.

I have not talked down to anyone, I have only voiced my opinion.  I am sorry, but I cannot offer any respect until they actually confirm something.  I cannot offer respect when they say that they don't think there is anything wrong with the endings, just that they acknowledge that they are disappointed. 

I point out again Todd Howards admitting that he and Bethesda messed up in regards to Fallout 3's endings.  That, I can respect.

Modifié par Wolven_Soul, 21 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[Zenoctilles]

I agree with the OP. A right step in the right direction.

[Andur4]

I respect in that it's a step in the right direction. Though that could change based on what they reveal in April.

[CmdrStJean]

The ultimate problem here is one of pragmatics.  Additional "tweaks" to the ending, enough to flesh it out and eliminate the logical inconsistencies, while a noble enough gesture, do nothing to address the fact that in the post-ME3 universe, all is ash and death.  Given this fact, there's absolutely no reason to ever pay attention to the franchise, as a whole, again (at least in my opinion).  Why bother with further missions pre-Harbinger when one knows full well that such efforts are all for naught?  Why pay money to see Vega's backstory revealed when you know, with almost total certainty that if he's not dead yet he soon will be. 

If Bioware had not insisted on foisting the ultimate of "sad" endings upon us, even I might have been willing to deal with the fallout from ME3's conclusion.  But as it stands now, I'm not ever going to spend any money on ME products again, as far as I'm concerned the franchise is dead, and this my friends is what undoubtedly concerns EA the most.  They're in this to make their shareholders happy and to capitalize on existing profit streams, if they can't do that given the current state of affairs then something has to give.  Something more, I might add, than simple PR semantics.  

The question ultimately is what will they do.  I appreciate getting some feedback from the powers that be myself, and lord knows I'd like to hear more, but it's not going to be enough to just clarify things.  There must be SOME fundamental changes to what we've seen otherwise further engagement is without merrit.  I don't want to abandon a franchise I enjoy so much, but knowing how it all ends, there's just no way I could get past the hollowness of such pursuits.  I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I can't believe that those like me would constitute such a small minority as to be irrelivant in the scheme of things.  Like other's have said I feel I must still, respectfully, hold the line, and I'd encourage everyone else to do the same.

[Vaktathi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There will always be a fringe element in every group that will never back down, never stop even if got everything they ever want. So obsessed with "sticking it to the man" and power hungry that they fail to realise in life compromises are made to try to keep everyone happy. I come to think that some member of retake just have not reached the stage in life yet that in order for everyone to get along and in order to progress in life compromises have to be made, the world really does not revolve around them. Those kinds will never be happy regardless of the result.

What we have from Bioware (more accurately you since I liked the endings) is simply a statement that says they will be creating extra content to bring closure and exposition to those who want it. This will be in the form of DLC not changes to the core game and that is the compromise. People should either realise they were met half way or leave because they are never going to get through life or relationships if expect everyone including Bioware will do exactly as they demand all the time, so learn to accept compromise or be in for one hell of a miserable, struggling, bitter lifetime.

I will be very happy as long as they make a good-faith effort to address the ending. I'm glad you liked the ending even though I did not. I really wanted to like it... And you're right, none of us will get everything we want, but this release shows a lot of promise.

My statement is back up with such elements as this.



They will not change the ending but for those who are not as hardcore or obsessed with getting everything you want,a compromise being enough regarding additional exposition and answer to your space magic plus relating to what happened to your companions and why they acted the way they did and what happened to the races left around Earth etc.. Will be part of this additional content. I fail to see why that would be so offensive. Life is about compromise and having been reading and attacked many times myself about the issues so many have this goes half way at least to resolving it for many of the ones I talked to including all the way resolution for others. There will always be some who want core game changes but Bioware does not do that, they have and always will add extra content to resolve issues as shown with Dragon Age 2. I consider that sort of thing fair and reasonable way to handle such feedback and criticism.

These people (the ones in the twitter quotes) have nothing invested in the current ending, it's not like they're fighting to keep the ending because they feel it truly fits and is the right ending, they just don't like the idea of changing the ending regardless. That's it.