54 réponses à ce sujet

[GmanFresh]

after reading stolen throne i get him alot more. they gave him no depth in the game.

[Valmy]

He is a bit more complicated and sympathetic if you recruit him and talk to him...though he can still be a jerk.



But yeah he is portrayed as some sort of monster in the game up to that point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sadly they didn't. But you get to understand him more if he joins your party.

[GmanFresh]

im gonna replay and save him. i just brushed him off as "the bad guy"

[Taerda]

I respect him for what he did in the past, much as I respect Benedict Arnold for what he did early in the American Revolution War.



My viewpoint changed thereafter.

[PuffyTail]

I'd definitely say it's worthwhile to get him as a party member, just to learn more about him and Anora through conversations.

[SarEnyaDor]

I personally think it makes it WORSE what he became knowing how he started.



He is totally King Lear.

[Valmy]

Taerda wrote...

I respect him for what he did in the past, much as I respect Benedict Arnold for what he did early in the American Revolution War.

My viewpoint changed thereafter.

I have thought about that before.

Also Marshal Petain of France.  National heroes who go bad.

[Taleroth]

I hardly found him any more respectable once he joined my party and talked to him. He became less respectable.  Instead of being a douchebag, he was a broken shell of a douchebag.

Modifié par Taleroth, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[GmanFresh]

Valmy wrote...

Taerda wrote...

I respect him for what he did in the past, much as I respect Benedict Arnold for what he did early in the American Revolution War.

My viewpoint changed thereafter.

I have thought about that before.

Also Marshal Petain of France.  National heroes who go bad.

\\
indeed. he seemed to have much patience with maric but  not with calin

[Original182]

Any good deeds he has done before Ostagar, have gone down the drain due to his actions near the end of his life.

[GmanFresh]

well if you wanna rp he was/is a great tactician. saving him seems the practical choice. logain lives, Allister also lives..

[Taleroth]

Great tactician, maybe. God awful strategist.

Derp, derp, how does I keep Orlesians away and defeat the Darkspawn?  By killing my own armies!  I IS GREAT

Modifié par Taleroth, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:23 .

[Lianaar]

I didn't read the books but I think if you paid attention to what people talk you can learn a lot about Loghain and understand he isn't just a bad guy who was born bad but is a peasant who has sacrificed so many things to save the thing he loves the most: Ferelden. Within his own views his actions are quite understandable. I wouldn't call him evil, but he got obsessed with a single thing losing regard for the whole, or so it seems to me. My human noble thinks differently.



I think the game did reveal that he was a hero and a respected person throughout the lands. He did a lot for Ferelden and he deserved respect for that. He had honor and he was rewarded by being named noble from being a peasant.

[Valmy]

GmanFresh wrote...

well if you wanna rp he was/is a great tactician. saving him seems the practical choice. logain lives, Allister also lives..

Eh there are all sorts of practical reasons Loghain should die also.

Letting him live to defend Ferelden against the Blight is a merciful choice above all even if there are some practical reasons to consider it...well and it can also be entertaining as you have another NPC companion to get to meet.

[XOGHunter246]

When i got a rude hurry up i disliked him even more

[Valmy]

Taleroth wrote...

Great tactician, maybe. God awful strategist.

Derp, derp, how does I keep Orlesians away and defeat the Darkspawn?  By killing my own armies!  I IS GREAT

Well to be fair it wasn't HIS armies he destroyed but the other nobles 

Yeah I didn't really get the whole 'destroy everybody' strategy either.

Modifié par Valmy, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:28 .

[Lianaar]

Taleroth wrote...
Derp, derp, how does I keep Orlesians away and defeat the Darkspawn?  By killing my own armies!  I IS GREAT

To be fair to him he didn't kill his own army. He killed the army of the king, the wardens of Ferelden (who weren't that many) and some of the king's loyalists, but there were enough armies left to fight a civil war. His own army was untouched, Eamon's army was untouched (though his knights parished) and there were other nobles in the landsmeet as well as the Templars who could fight.

It might not have been the smartest knowing the Blight is there. But maybe he doubted the Blight.
One thing is sure, he believed to be right.

[elearon1]

I got him a good deal more after he joined the party. Initially it was his daughter's plea that I spare him and her talk about how he used to be such a great man that convinced me, but we were never friends ... though there was certainly some respect between us. Besides which, he was the one party member whose face you could get in and earn relationship points with, rather than lose them.

[Kalcalan]

Cailan was weak because he wanted to play at being a hero, didn't realize the consequences and didn't properly rule (his queen was in charge). Ultimately he would have ruined his kingdom or given it back to the Orlesians (the major threat to Ferelden's sovereignty) and his senseless thirst for glory would never have been sated.



Duncan represented a dangerous faction because of the influence he had over the king. Don't forget that Grey Wardens are an alien uncontrolable force in Ferelden with strong links with foreign organizations (a bit like Templars in medieval Europe). Grey Wardens have only one goal: ending the Blight; it's fair to assume that they would be ready to do anything in order to achieve this goal (including sacrificing Ferelden's interests if it meant stopping the Blight).



Loghain chose the only sensible option to save the kingdom from Cailan's foolishness and from the Grey Warden's meddling. Deposing Cailan and getting rid of the Grey Wardens was like striking two birds with one stone. Replaying through the game I have the impression that Loghain really tried to change Cailan's mind and that confronted with the king's senseless and boyish attitude he ended up giving up on him.



Things got out of hand when he later failed to unite Ferelden to stop the Darkspawns largely due to the player character's interference.



Of course, things look different when you consider them as a Grey Warden.

[Spammalanche]

I've only played through once, and so I can only see Loghain as the gutless Big Bad. Didn't help that I had no idea having Alistair face him in single combat would throw away any options of letting him live (as epic as that option was )

[Lianaar]

Actually I am having second thoughts about Cailan.

His wife seemed to be the ruler, and Cailen wanted to be a hero (which his father is too), but if you listen to him, he isn't stupid.

His arguments to Loghain were not stupid at all. He said: Let us wait for Orlais wardens.

Logain goes: but we they are Olaisians.

Cailan points out that Grey Wardens are only concerned about the BLight, not about Ferelden and it is not the Orlais ARMY that comes in, but 200 grey wardens. Wardens that were allowed to start rebuild by Maric.

So Loghain says: We don't need them.

Cailen responds: Then our forces suffice.

Loghain goes: No, they don't.

Cailen: Then let us wait for Orlais Grey Wardens then.

Loghain No.



Aham... Cailen biggest mistake was to trust Loghain.But he wasn't an idiot at all.

[sagevallant]

Spammalanche wrote...

I've only played through once, and so I can only see Loghain as the gutless Big Bad. Didn't help that I had no idea having Alistair face him in single combat would throw away any options of letting him live (as epic as that option was )

Loghain is anything but gutless. He just needs to be knocked down a peg by the next generation. Which is exactly what happens when you win the Landsmeet and beat some sense into him personally. He's arrogant; being a hero can do that to you. He thinks he knows everything, but he's wrong about the Wardens (remember, all of Fereldan's Wardens are either foreigners or recruited recently into what Loghain would see as a foreign order. Plus, as you learn at Warden's Keep, they were banned in Fereldan for trying to take over the throne anyway). He's a xenophobe. That he finds the nobles divided by his actions is infuriating; he's the Old Hero, he's not used to having people disagree with him. Especially in terms of what's best for the nation. He suffers from crotchety old man syndrome.

[sagevallant]

Lianaar wrote...

Actually I am having second thoughts about Cailan.
His wife seemed to be the ruler, and Cailen wanted to be a hero (which his father is too), but if you listen to him, he isn't stupid.
His arguments to Loghain were not stupid at all. He said: Let us wait for Orlais wardens.
Logain goes: but we they are Olaisians.
Cailan points out that Grey Wardens are only concerned about the BLight, not about Ferelden and it is not the Orlais ARMY that comes in, but 200 grey wardens. Wardens that were allowed to start rebuild by Maric.
So Loghain says: We don't need them.
Cailen responds: Then our forces suffice.
Loghain goes: No, they don't.
Cailen: Then let us wait for Orlais Grey Wardens then.
Loghain No.

Aham... Cailen biggest mistake was to trust Loghain.But he wasn't an idiot at all.

Or, on the other hand, the mistake was not listening to Loghain in the first place. He says they need more men, and we've established that Eamon's forces aren't there. Howe's soldiers are busy ransacking the Cousland lands.

It's not just the Orlais wardens, though. Loghain talks about the orlais chevaliers, who are massed and ready too.  That'd be royal knights of orlais. The people Loghain helped drive out of the country. His distrust is understandable. The Grey Wardens in the country would also either be foreigners or those directly recruited by foreigners, too, since wardens were banned in Fereldan after what happened in Warden's Keep.

[Lianaar]

And that's the point. Cailen ASKS Loghain: shall we wait? And he said no. The final decision not to wait was made by Loghain. At least in the cutscene I just watched.