54 réponses à ce sujet

[BanditGR]

Loghain certainly had good intentions and all he wanted to do is serve Ferelden in the best possible manner. His own nature and history though did not allow him to trust people easily. But his greatest mistake was simply the fact that he never took the Blight seriously, he never believed there was any real threat or at the very least a threat he couldn't deal with, using his own resources.

[ninjafast]

The one thing I noticed on my second start, is that it does not appear to be Loghain's intention to kill the king. He tells Cailen several times, you shouldn't be fighting with the Warden's at the front. Loghain gives Cailen several chance to stand with him.



My take is that Loghain wanted to wipe out the Warden's as mentioned xenophobe. The king is in the back with him, the Wardens go out first. The signal fire never gets lite because the Loghain allows Darkspwn to take the tower. Talk to the guard before the battle no one is allowed in the tower per Loghain's order. The king lives to unite Ferelden, wipes out the Blight and everyone lives happily ever after with out the help of any outsiders.

[Taleroth]

I refuse to respect him. Not because he killed his king and more than decimated his nation's army. Not because he incited a civil war.



But because he did these things out of ignorance. And he lacked conviction at the end.

[SarEnyaDor]

I don't know if you talked to Loghain or not, but there is lots of dialogue witht the soldiers about how Cailan and Loghain have been arguing and yelling for weeks about something Anora did or didn't do, and how things have been really tense, and Loghain admits he basically detests the king and thinks he's a spoiled child.. and he may be right to a point, but I think it is very clear in the set up that Loghain was going to betray the king for "the greater good" of Ferelden. Killing his best-friend's son because his son didn't bow down and lick Loghain's boots and dared to argue with him.



Loghain had clear control of most everything in that camp, evern Alistair said that Loghain was the brains behind everything and that Anora really ruled - Loghain decided to cut out the middle man permanently and get through his day without headaches from now on. He set in motion the murder of the Cousland's who were very loyal to the king and he set in motion the riots in the Alienage.



He decided he was the Maker's gift to Ferelden and wasn't going to let some snot-nosed brat who happened to be king dissaude him from his course and so he murdered him, thinking to take control quickly and quietly with his daughter at the helm, only Bann Teagan spouted off and the nobles seemed to agree, so he decided to off Arl Eamon too, to make sure no one opposed him and his precious daughter.

[The Angry One]

Eamon was poisoned just prior to the battle of Ostagar, he was planning this from the start.

Why? Because he's a power hungry despot. Orlais is the convenient excuse of a cardboard cutout hero put on a pedestal and wanting more than the breadcrumbs Cailan gave him to amuse himself.

[SarEnyaDor]

The Angry One wrote...

Eamon was poisoned just prior to the battle of Ostagar, he was planning this from the start.
Why? Because he's a power hungry despot. Orlais is the convenient excuse of a cardboard cutout hero put on a pedestal and wanting more than the breadcrumbs Cailan gave him to amuse himself.

Yeah, that makes sense, too, considering when Jowan escaped, etc. All I know is when I saw Loghain's face when Tegan was talking I knew someone was going to pay for that comment and soon.

[Relshar]

Cailen trusted Loghain to look out for Freledens best intrests. Loghain was most likely the one who told Cailen that it was not a full blown Blight. Knowing that if he did there would be no way to stop the Grey Wardens and Orlais forces from marching in to stop it before it began.



Loghain acted out of fear and self intrest in the game this nearly doomed Ferledan to the Blight. And everything he was or worked for was made forfiet when he betrayed his King and the Grey Wardens. He commited high treason by deserting his king and taking the throne, I kill him everytime in game. I dont want him watching my back.

[dannythefool]

Taleroth wrote...

Great tactician, maybe. God awful strategist.

Derp, derp, how does I keep Orlesians away and defeat the Darkspawn?  By killing my own armies!  I IS GREAT

And that's consistent with book-Loghain too. There's even a scene in The Stolen Throne where he notices a little too late that a bait tactic of his worked perfectly well but, strategically speaking, it made even more sense to let the bait die...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kalcalan wrote...

Loghain chose the only sensible option to save the kingdom from Cailan's foolishness and from the Grey Warden's meddling.

There is NOTHING sensible about what Loghain did. Nothing.

I did have some respect for Loghain for his past. But that is the past. Whatever someone did, whatever somoene though - that was the past. I don't have to deal with what he was, but what he is now.
It is sad that he fallen so low.

[th3warr1or]

Loghain is like a valley.. V



He was at his peak during the Orlais occupation, then he became a complete tyrant, before redeeming himself in a badass slaying of the Archdemon.

[Taleroth]

th3warr1or wrote...

himself in a badass slaying of the Archdemon.

Badass slaying of the Archdemon being "baww, you don't need to die, I need to atone, bawwww."

[Lotion Soronarr]

ninjafast wrote...

The one thing I noticed on my second start, is that it does not appear to be Loghain's intention to kill the king. He tells Cailen several times, you shouldn't be fighting with the Warden's at the front. Loghain gives Cailen several chance to stand with him.

Maybe he didn't want to initally. I think he though he can turn Cailan to his way of thinking.

But as you notice at the end of hte war meeting ("A glorious moment for us all") and even more importatnly, the impish smile after he order the troops to retreat. Tehre is no sorrow or regreat in his face when he's watching loyal Ferelden soldiers and his firends son and the king he swore to serve die.

That's why I don't spare him. His word means nothing to me. If he's willing to betray his oath to his best firends son and king....why should I belive him he will keep it to me?

[Kalcalan]

Getting rid of Eamon was a rather logical move when Loghain had decided to eliminate the people who could influence Cailan (and later on Cailan himself when he would insist to stand on the front lines with the Grey Wardens). With Eamon gone nobody could oppose him anymore.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Loghain wanted first and foremost to get rid of the Grey Wardens and that he decided to betray Cailan when the king insisted on fighting with the Wardens on the frontlines.

Otherwise why would Loghain try to change Cailan's mind and convince him not throw his lot with the Wardens?

Von Salza wrote...

Do as the Romans did to stop the Huns, ask for the aid of the Visigoths (Orlais), plan to have them take the bulk of the Huns (Darkspawn) assault, arrive "late" destroy the remaining Darkspawn and even the Orlais army in the "confusion", (saying the Orlesians attacked the Freldens), even killing the King and remaining Wardens in the process, Proclaiming himself King and uniting Ferelden against Orlais...

I don't think that would have worked. From what we are lead to understand Orlais is rather powerful, so powerful that the very presence of their knights would represent a major threat to Ferelden's sovereignty.

[Kalcalan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

Loghain chose the only sensible option to save the kingdom from Cailan's foolishness and from the Grey Warden's meddling.

There is NOTHING sensible about what Loghain did. Nothing.

I did have some respect for Loghain for his past. But that is the past. Whatever someone did, whatever somoene though - that was the past. I don't have to deal with what he was, but what he is now.
It is sad that he fallen so low.

I guess we have to agree to disagree then. Cailan must have seemed pretty weak to Loghain. In fact it's clear that Anora was the one in power and that Cailan was just a puppet. Loghain must have been rather disappointed in his friend's son being such a whelp dreaming about glory and ready to call back the Orlesians to achieve some feat of arms.

Loghain may be compared to McBeth. When it appeared that there was no turning back, he just had to assume what he had done and make the most of it.

Don't overlook the fact that Loghain was not a noble and that he had to work hard and fight to achieve glory whereas Cailan wanted a piece of that glory even if it cost him his kingdom's independance.

From Loghain's perspective Cailan was most certainly a threat to Ferelden.

Modifié par Kalcalan, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:41 .

[GodLikeDevil]

I have to admit, he mellowed out a lot when my Human Noble Rogue trounced him at the Landsmeet and spared his life. Loghain was visibly surprised I let him live, and join the Wardens. And I like the fact that in the conversations with him you do get to rub it in his face that he lost to you, and that he respects you more because you totally pwn'd him at the Landsmeet when majority of the nobles threw in with you aside from besting him in the duel. He got a good reality check to snap him out of his cantankerous old man syndrome. I found it sweetly ironic Loghain becomes the one in charge of revitalizing the order he almost wiped out.



Sucks though that you lose Alistair as a party member, but if he's King, it severely strains, but it doesn't end your friendship with him (at least that's how it seemed during the celebrations).

[Xaila]

I haven't read The Stolen Throne yet (it's been surprisingly hard to find locally so I had to order it) but it seems by the time of The Calling he's already well on the path to how he is in Origins. Personally I love him as an interesting character, which doesn't mean I love what he does of course.



I think his turn from "loyal hero/protector of Ferelden" to "delusional tyrant who thinks he and only he knows what's best" is cinched at the end of The Calling when Maric is almost killed by a plot devised by Orlesians involving Grey Wardens. It doesn't go into it, but I think that Loghain's trust in Maric was all but totally shattered there. I doubt their relationship was ever the same after that.



He seems to have been treating Maric increasingly like a foolish child, and it seems like Maric never really put his foot down on it. It's no wonder he treated Cailan like that. Ahh, unhealthy power relationships.

[Kalcalan]

I think Loghain would have had more respect for Cailan if Cailan had been a strong man and ruler like Maric and not a fool that would let his queen rule for him and pursue glory like a king in fairy tales when there were so many problems to attend to in Ferelden.

I'm not disputing that Loghain is a villain though. He is as much a villain as Richard III or McBeth. Still, I have much contempt for Cailan's weakness and although I may despise Loghain for his betrayal and his association with Howe I have to admit that Loghain is a more fascinating character. As an antihero or antagonist, he is just perfect. Cailan pales in comparison and Loghain's sternness only serves to reinforce the king's whimsical attitude.

What I'm pointing at is the fact that Cailan was an idealist whereas Loghain was more of a realist (at least until his thirst for power ultimately blinded him). In that respect Loghain had more in common with real world historical figures for whom Niccolo Machiavelli wrote the Prince.

EDIT: I've just read Xaila's post, I haven't read the books so I'm only writing about my impressions from the game but it seems to explain the strenuous relationship between Loghain and the king. Very interesting.

Modifié par Kalcalan, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[Taleroth]

Yeah, a lot of problems to attend to in Ferelden.



Like a Blight.

[Riona45]

Of course I respect Loghain! I'll always respect a person who breaks the tension and brings me some much needed amusement and laughter.



All he truly needs is a goatee/handlebar mustache.

[Kalcalan]

Cailan was after glory, he was wishing for a real Blight (!) he wasn't looking after his kingdom as much as grasping his chance to live up to his foolish notion that he could be a hero like the kings of old.



Before Ostagar there was no real evidence that the Blight was as severe as some of them thought it would be.



Even Duncan didn't seem to know.

[Lianaar]

I disagree. Duncan knew for sure. He felt it. People just didn't believe it.

[Taleroth]

Kalcalan wrote...

Cailan was after glory, he was wishing for a real Blight (!) he wasn't looking after his kingdom as much as grasping his chance to live up to his foolish notion that he could be a hero like the kings of old.

Before Ostagar there was no real evidence that the Blight was as severe as some of them thought it would be.

Except for the part where the Darkspawn NEVER gather in such numbers except during a Blight.

Even Duncan didn't seem to know.

He did know.  The thing he questioned was whether or not Cailan's attempts would be enough.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kalcalan wrote...

I think Loghain would have had more respect for Cailan if Cailan had been a strong man and ruler like Maric and not a fool that would let his queen rule for him and pursue glory like a king in fairy tales when there were so many problems to attend to in Ferelden.

Eh? Maric practicly allways agreed with Loghain. As Xaila said, Maric never really puts his foot down.
Cailian is young an inexperienced, but he IS a strong leader and he clearly shows it.
He was looking to prove himself, but he was also right about fighting the blight. And his bravado act is something every competent commander would do.

B.t.w. - idealists are also real people.