210 réponses à ce sujet

[ShepnTali]

I agree with Angry One. The hopeless dread kills all Mass Effect for me. A lot of people love ME for different reasons, and in the end, we got low blowed when the ref wasn't looking.

[Kroepoek]

I'll show you art

[The Angry One]

Lugaidster wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This entire thread is just nonsense.

Oh look the white knights have arrived. Hail brave heroes, set to defend BioWare no matter what.
Art can be nonsensical you say? This is not a damn Picasso, this is a videogame, a 3rd game in a trilogy that has never been nonsensical. It utterly violates it's "artistic integrity" to be nonsensical in the last 10 minutes.
What say you now? 

[KaMai19]

TheRealMithril wrote...

It's the players story. Sure, they wrote the lines, built the settings. But in the end it is the literary equivalent of handing us a canvas, and a limited set of brushes and colors. Then telling us to "draw something about a geth getting killed" etc.. While they set the stage, we as players actually painted the picture. So not only is there  "tar" on my painting, they refuse to remove it.

That's a dishonest argument in my opinion, unless you spent 3 years chopping down trees, processing the pulp to make the paper, extracting purple ink from obscure mollusks, trimming horse hair to make the brushes. Oh, and you dedicated the previous 15 years of your life to the craft of art utensiles to develop the skills necessary to make good ones...and you care deeply about them because you put everything you're passionate about - politics, love, tolerance/intolerance, fear - into every single implement.

Just because their are a staggering combination of narrative paths doesn't mean those paths weren't painstakingly created by an artist. But still, Bioware does ascribe to the idea that the players help make the story, and I agree that we deserve some degree of artistic control. But to say we deserve 99% of the control and the men and women who put their souls into ME3 deserve 1%...that statement demonstrates a complete ignorance of what it takes to create an experience like Mass Effect.

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This entire thread is just nonsense.

Oh look the white knights have arrived. Hail brave heroes, set to defend BioWare no matter what.
Art can be nonsensical you say? This is not a damn Picasso, this is a videogame, a 3rd game in a trilogy that has never been nonsensical. It utterly violates it's "artistic integrity" to be nonsensical in the last 10 minutes.
What say you now? 

In your opinion.

[fish of doom]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This entire thread is just nonsense.

Oh look the white knights have arrived. Hail brave heroes, set to defend BioWare no matter what.
Art can be nonsensical you say? This is not a damn Picasso, this is a videogame, a 3rd game in a trilogy that has never been nonsensical. It utterly violates it's "artistic integrity" to be nonsensical in the last 10 minutes.
What say you now? 

In your opinion.

not just hers.

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

In your opinion.

No. It makes no sense. The Catalyst's arguments are bizarre and nonsensical.
The Normandy scene makes no sense at all, it's out of context, and violates the characters of everyone on board.
This is not opinion, this is fact. I defy you to make sense out of it.

[lothvamp]

Forget art for a moment. What about Shepard's integrity? MY Shepard (and a lot of others too, I'd wager) would NOT have just went along with the miraculous energy-being/Starchild/Godthing that pops up out of no where and ADMITS to being the creator/controller of the reapers. I'm pretty sure she'd have had something very different to say than, "Sure, I'll pick one of the three paths that end in my death, and possibly the death of everyone else." No, I'm pretty sure she'd be looking for a way to destroy the one at the top, because THAT seems like a logical response to meeting the creator/controller of the reapers.

[Scubaman8777]

If the current ending is 'art', then I'm glad I'm a science-math-logic guy...

[Titan_HQ]

fish of doom wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This entire thread is just nonsense.

Oh look the white knights have arrived. Hail brave heroes, set to defend BioWare no matter what.
Art can be nonsensical you say? This is not a damn Picasso, this is a videogame, a 3rd game in a trilogy that has never been nonsensical. It utterly violates it's "artistic integrity" to be nonsensical in the last 10 minutes.
What say you now? 

In your opinion.

not just hers.

Indeed, I'm with The Angry One and fish of doom.


Which conincidentally is the weirdest sentence I have uttered all day.

[fish of doom]

Scubaman8777 wrote...

If the current ending is 'art', then I'm glad I'm a science-math-logic guy...

[fish of doom]

Titan_HQ wrote...

Which conincidentally is the weirdest sentence I have uttered all day.

it is downright artistic.

[sveners]

The Angry One wrote...
I don't want to be talked down to and have it explained to me in game just why this ending is deep. It is n ot. It is mean spirited, malicious and cruel. It is thoughtless, hateful and without hope.
It violates the theme of Mass Effect and ruins the characters.

I could not agree more on this. Naturally it's my own personal opinion, but I honestly felt slapped/punched/pissed on by the ending(s?). Haven't been able to play the game since I first finished. Reading Muzyka's reply did help to let me try 2 multiplayer rounds, but that ended just as quick as it started.


And reading about how it hurt them to hear the complaints......... damn...... I am sorry that they feel that way, honestly I am. But how in God's name could they not see this coming?? And will I get an apology? For feeling depressed by their game? For feeling like the entire playing of the series was a complete waste of time? It shouldn't be possible! But it is............

And I dearly wish it wasn't 


Would there have been such an outrage if a happy ending was possible?  I would certainly not have complained. Considering I never visited these forums until I finished ME3.

Modifié par sveners, 21 mars 2012 - 07:20 .

[TheRevanchist]

Not to mention the mere EXSISTENCE of this stupid God AI makes the ENITRE first game UTTERLY meaningless....Soverign should have never had to waste his time taking control of the Citadel if this AI exsists and can basiclly use Space Magic to do w/e the hell it wants.

[Negix]

Uhhhmmm... I just want to ask: How can an AAA title be art? I know that people like to go around and yell "wohoo, videogames are art yay" but honestly, I dont see it. Videogames are designed to make money. At least the big ones. They are business. Its not that the "artistic vision" of one guy or a group of people what defines a game, its what a possibly large group of people wants. Bioware even stated that they have data on how people played and adapt to it. Theres a reason that the soldier is the standardmodell in cutscenes: Because everybody and their respective mothers plays soldier. If they say "we listen to fanfeedback to create future content", how is that still part of the artistic vision? If the storywriters said "we want to make more Ashley" and the data shows "people like Tali better" then what do you think they will release. Doesnt that kind of go against "art"?

Could someone please clarify this, it really makes no sense to me....

[Wickwrackscar]

I'd like to extend on something I posted before in another thread:

It's funny to think that Bioware has ONE artistic integrity that has to be preserved.What about the individuals working there? If Bob the character designer envisioned the cerberus trooper in a fluffy bunny costume, they as an employer wouldn't have said: "Well Bob, we determined in the team meeting that this fluffy bunny idea of yours is not so good but we respect your artistic integrity, so we're going with it." I would have loved to see the finished product, crafted by artists full of artistic integrity.
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

They internally got rid of individual artistic integrity for the sake of working together as a team. What they didn't realize is that the fans as stakeholders are (and have always been) part of that team. And that the artistic integrity is not that of any one person or company, but of the franchise.

Am I making any sense?

EDIT: Edited for formatting

Modifié par General Distress, 21 mars 2012 - 07:25 .

[OrumLeader]

 I"m inclinded to also not agree with the artistic integrity argument or that games are purely art.  You certainly can say they are art at some level if you like; However, games are fundimently a product baught by consumers.

They are sold in retail outlets just like a VCR or perhaps more appropriately software like MS Word.  These companies have to pay serious attention to their consumers feedback because if they don't, they wont continue to sell these products.

In the gaming world, there seems to be this imaginary line that the consumers are not aloud to cross.  The artistic line.  I simply disagree.  Games are a product and just like every other product, if you don't listen to your consumers, you are going to pay the price.

I for one am not likely to buy any future bioware product and i'm someone that was a diehard supporter of Bioware in the past.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Thats how the Business / consumer relationshp works.  Businesses either adapt or they suffer.  Likewise consumers either accpet the product or look to spend their money elseware.

Feedback and critisism is a critical compoent to the above relationship.  Most busineses want it because they strive to make their product better.  Game companies however only seem to be "shocked" at a bad reception to thier product and seem very reluctent to implement any feedback or critisism unless it is on their terms.

Must be nice to run a business in the gaming industry because appearently the same rules don't apply to them like every other business.

Edit: syntax corrections

Modifié par OrumLeader, 21 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[TheRealMithril]

KaMai19 wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

It's the players story. Sure, they wrote the lines, built the settings. But in the end it is the literary equivalent of handing us a canvas, and a limited set of brushes and colors. Then telling us to "draw something about a geth getting killed" etc.. While they set the stage, we as players actually painted the picture. So not only is there  "tar" on my painting, they refuse to remove it.

That's a dishonest argument in my opinion, unless you spent 3 years chopping down trees, processing the pulp to make the paper, extracting purple ink from obscure mollusks, trimming horse hair to make the brushes. Oh, and you dedicated the previous 15 years of your life to the craft of art utensiles to develop the skills necessary to make good ones...and you care deeply about them because you put everything you're passionate about - politics, love, tolerance/intolerance, fear - into every single implement.

Just because their are a staggering combination of narrative paths doesn't mean those paths weren't painstakingly created by an artist. But still, Bioware does ascribe to the idea that the players help make the story, and I agree that we deserve some degree of artistic control. But to say we deserve 99% of the control and the men and women who put their souls into ME3 deserve 1%...that statement demonstrates a complete ignorance of what it takes to create an experience like Mass Effect.

You're missing the point, *and* take things too literary. Secondly, you are minimizing the players efforts who 'painstakingly' created the best story for 'their' Shepard.

[KaMai19]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

In your opinion.

No. It makes no sense. The Catalyst's arguments are bizarre and nonsensical.
The Normandy scene makes no sense at all, it's out of context, and violates the characters of everyone on board.
This is not opinion, this is fact. I defy you to make sense out of it.

The Indoctrination theory does, for whatever that's worth. The point being, every single one of those sentences except "no" and "I defy you..." is an opinion. They're very valid opinions that are easy to support with evidence from the game, but that doesn't make them objective facts. 

[Adynata]

Let's put it this way, if the game was always meant to be a tragedy all along, then why didn't it have the typical elements of a tregedy? Instead, it was always represented as a kind of monomyth, a hero's story. Yet in the end all we get is a tragedy that was wholly unexpected and unwelcomed.

[Billabong2011]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sick and tired of BioWare hiding behind this, it seems they've taken the views of hack journalists to heart and are running around calling this ending "art".
No, Mass Effect 3 was art. The ending was like taking a beautiful painting and covering it with tar.
You're not defending art, BioWare, you're defending the tar that covers it.

I don't want to be talked down to and have it explained to me in game just why this ending is deep. It is n ot. It is mean spirited, malicious and cruel. It is thoughtless, hateful and without hope.
It violates the theme of Mass Effect and ruins the characters.

Take a lesson from Bethesda and admit when you're wrong, BioWare. The game is the artistic integrity you must preserve, not this slapdash failure of an ending.

Now, some of you may disagree. Fine, you can keep your ending and I hope you enjoy it, but I will keep fighting for mine. I will not "settle".

[TheRealMithril]

General Distress wrote...

I'd like to extend on something I posted before in another thread:

It's funny to think that Bioware has ONE artistic integrity that has to be preserved.What about the individuals working there? If Bob the character designer envisioned the cerberus trooper in a fluffy bunny costume, they as an employer wouldn't have said: "Well Bob, we determined in the team meeting that this fluffy bunny idea of yours is not so good but we respect your artistic integrity, so we're going with it." I would have loved to see the finished product, crafted by artists full of artistic integrity.
../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png

They internally got rid of individual artistic integrity for the sake of working together as a team. What they didn't realize is that the fans as stakeholders are (and have always been) part of that team. And that the artistic integrity is not that of any one person or company, but of the franchise.

Am I making any sense?

EDIT: Edited for formatting

They can keep their vision as is, it is in fact very easy to do so. Just let Shepard wake up in the rubble. He had nightmares throughout the game, this would just be another one. Most people (quite likely) have had very vivid dreams that seemed perfectly real at some point.

[Blackmind1]

Billabong2011 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sick and tired of BioWare hiding behind this, it seems they've taken the views of hack journalists to heart and are running around calling this ending "art".
No, Mass Effect 3 was art. The ending was like taking a beautiful painting and covering it with tar.
You're not defending art, BioWare, you're defending the tar that covers it.

I don't want to be talked down to and have it explained to me in game just why this ending is deep. It is n ot. It is mean spirited, malicious and cruel. It is thoughtless, hateful and without hope.
It violates the theme of Mass Effect and ruins the characters.

Take a lesson from Bethesda and admit when you're wrong, BioWare. The game is the artistic integrity you must preserve, not this slapdash failure of an ending.

Now, some of you may disagree. Fine, you can keep your ending and I hope you enjoy it, but I will keep fighting for mine. I will not "settle".

Only idiots see idiots like this as inspiring figures.

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

In your opinion.

No. It makes no sense. The Catalyst's arguments are bizarre and nonsensical.
The Normandy scene makes no sense at all, it's out of context, and violates the characters of everyone on board.
This is not opinion, this is fact. I defy you to make sense out of it.

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

[The Angry One]

KaMai19 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

In your opinion.

No. It makes no sense. The Catalyst's arguments are bizarre and nonsensical.
The Normandy scene makes no sense at all, it's out of context, and violates the characters of everyone on board.
This is not opinion, this is fact. I defy you to make sense out of it.

The Indoctrination theory does, for whatever that's worth. The point being, every single one of those sentences except "no" and "I defy you..." is an opinion. They're very valid opinions that are easy to support with evidence from the game, but that doesn't make them objective facts. 

The indoctrination theory is a theory that exists entirely because the endings make no sense.
Indoctrination asks us to believe it's all a dream, because dreams make no sense. It does not make sense of the ending, it simply excuses it's lack of sense.