210 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I have. Please reat the original post.

[SvRec]

Artistic integrity can be a good thing. The thing is that Bioware concentrated way too much on it in ME3, so much that at the end they pretty much made player interactivity, what games are all about, pointless. The ending was one of a movie not a video game trilogy.

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I have. Please reat the original post.

And like I said, in your opinion.

Now explain why Bioware needs to apologise. Explain what is wrong about the art that they need to admit.

[Drak41n]

It doesn't matter if it's art. Most art is done by commission. If they art doesn't met the expectations of the commissioner than it's either changed, the artist makes another piece that does meet expectation, or the artist does not get paid.

[fish of doom]

quick note here: even if it's considered to be "art", that does not mean it's in any way good. a squiggly stick figure, or a portrait with ****ed up proportions are not in any way comparable to the ceiling of the sistine chapel, and a rough house made of play-dough is not the same as rodin's thinker. refusing to improve your art when it is recognizably low quality, and claiming that it is, is in fact the opposite of artistic integrity. some people may like it, yes, but as i read recently on another forum: ‎"The ending is bad. If it's a matter of personal taste, we have enough literary, logical and well though out reasons for why it's bad that we can conclude that your personal taste is bad."

[TheRealMithril]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

In your opinion.

No. It makes no sense. The Catalyst's arguments are bizarre and nonsensical.
The Normandy scene makes no sense at all, it's out of context, and violates the characters of everyone on board.
This is not opinion, this is fact. I defy you to make sense out of it.

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I've done plenty art, sometimes bad. And I have had to say I'm sorry. It's not a big deal as long as they are right.. Art in my view isn't untouchable. (I used to work as a senior graphics artist some years ago, before becoming a coder.) I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't let pride get in my way. But admittedly, I have worked with artists who never apologized for anything as well. But my point is that, I don't think art cannot 'ever' be changed. And I don't think BioWare thinks that either, but I am also pretty sure that we need some real ... real... good arguments for them going down that road. They won't settle for a week of protests, they need to be sincere and real.

[KaMai19]

TheRealMithril wrote...

KaMai19 wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

It's the players story. Sure, they wrote the lines, built the settings. But in the end it is the literary equivalent of handing us a canvas, and a limited set of brushes and colors. Then telling us to "draw something about a geth getting killed" etc.. While they set the stage, we as players actually painted the picture. So not only is there  "tar" on my painting, they refuse to remove it.

That's a dishonest argument in my opinion, unless you spent 3 years chopping down trees, processing the pulp to make the paper, extracting purple ink from obscure mollusks, trimming horse hair to make the brushes. Oh, and you dedicated the previous 15 years of your life to the craft of art utensiles to develop the skills necessary to make good ones...and you care deeply about them because you put everything you're passionate about - politics, love, tolerance/intolerance, fear - into every single implement.

Just because their are a staggering combination of narrative paths doesn't mean those paths weren't painstakingly created by an artist. But still, Bioware does ascribe to the idea that the players help make the story, and I agree that we deserve some degree of artistic control. But to say we deserve 99% of the control and the men and women who put their souls into ME3 deserve 1%...that statement demonstrates a complete ignorance of what it takes to create an experience like Mass Effect.

You're missing the point, *and* take things too literary. Secondly, you are minimizing the players efforts who 'painstakingly' created the best story for 'their' Shepard.

I responded to your analogy with a metaphor - that's about as far from taking it "literally" as we can get :-p

Your view is that I'm minimizing the efforts of the players, which I respect. But my view is that you're wildly inflating them. We are consumers of a digital medium. We choose to experience games because we enjoy them. They are not "work" or we would not play them. We are invested in the characters and the story, but that's not the same as being artistically invested in something you created. Yes, we spent 100+ hours on Mass Effect and we love the characters and the world. But to the creators of this thing, the characters and world are like children they painstakingly birthed. They spent 6+ YEARS making this series. They go to work every day and stress about bringing this thing to life.

Again, I agree that we have some say. Look at Ray's statement...obviously BW agrees. But we don't have the right to make a community poll about what should happen and shove that down the throats of the people who actually created the game. Characters are galley slaves, not artists. If the artists are galley slaves, you get mass produced crap (look at Hollywood).

[MOELANDER]

Yes Video Games are art. BUT!
Video Games are also consumer products. We as customers have a right to complain and to demand changes to our product! If the strangely formed seat of your sportscar gives you a backache but the designer won't change it because it's "art" will you accept that and ruin your back?

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I have. Please reat the original post.

And like I said, in your opinion.

Now explain why Bioware needs to apologise. Explain what is wrong about the art that they need to admit.

I already did. Your white knighting is getting annoying, either make a valid point or stop pestering your elders.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 mars 2012 - 07:39 .

[OrumLeader]

The Angry One wrote...

...
Art can be nonsensical you say? This is not a damn Picasso, this is a videogame, a 3rd game in a trilogy that has never been nonsensical. It utterly violates it's "artistic integrity" to be nonsensical in the last 10 minutes.
What say you now? 

I think there i an important point here.  This is the 3rd game in the trilogy.  The standard as to expectations on the part of the players regarding story and game play have already been set in the previous two installments.

It think the last 10 minutes is a essentially a "bait and switch".

[Sentox6]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

The idea of imbuing a corporate entertainment product with some sort of sacred mantle of protection via "artistic integrity" is not only ludicrous, it can not lead to anything good. For one, it provides an excuse for developers to not adhere to their pre-release promises (which is exactly what is happening here). Furthermore, in an industry where refunds are very difficult to come by, the last thing developers need is another defence againt consumer criticism.

[TheRealMithril]

KaMai19 wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

KaMai19 wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

It's the players story. Sure, they wrote the lines, built the settings. But in the end it is the literary equivalent of handing us a canvas, and a limited set of brushes and colors. Then telling us to "draw something about a geth getting killed" etc.. While they set the stage, we as players actually painted the picture. So not only is there  "tar" on my painting, they refuse to remove it.

That's a dishonest argument in my opinion, unless you spent 3 years chopping down trees, processing the pulp to make the paper, extracting purple ink from obscure mollusks, trimming horse hair to make the brushes. Oh, and you dedicated the previous 15 years of your life to the craft of art utensiles to develop the skills necessary to make good ones...and you care deeply about them because you put everything you're passionate about - politics, love, tolerance/intolerance, fear - into every single implement.

Just because their are a staggering combination of narrative paths doesn't mean those paths weren't painstakingly created by an artist. But still, Bioware does ascribe to the idea that the players help make the story, and I agree that we deserve some degree of artistic control. But to say we deserve 99% of the control and the men and women who put their souls into ME3 deserve 1%...that statement demonstrates a complete ignorance of what it takes to create an experience like Mass Effect.

You're missing the point, *and* take things too literary. Secondly, you are minimizing the players efforts who 'painstakingly' created the best story for 'their' Shepard.

I responded to your analogy with a metaphor - that's about as far from taking it "literally" as we can get :-p

Your view is that I'm minimizing the efforts of the players, which I respect. But my view is that you're wildly inflating them. We are consumers of a digital medium. We choose to experience games because we enjoy them. They are not "work" or we would not play them. We are invested in the characters and the story, but that's not the same as being artistically invested in something you created. Yes, we spent 100+ hours on Mass Effect and we love the characters and the world. But to the creators of this thing, the characters and world are like children they painstakingly birthed. They spent 6+ YEARS making this series. They go to work every day and stress about bringing this thing to life.

Again, I agree that we have some say. Look at Ray's statement...obviously BW agrees. But we don't have the right to make a community poll about what should happen and shove that down the throats of the people who actually created the game. Characters are galley slaves, not artists. If the artists are galley slaves, you get mass produced crap (look at Hollywood).

I don't consider being called 'dishonest' as a metaphor. Whatever you say after that really becomes irrelevant to me. I don't get upset about it either, but I will stop reading the rest.

[TheRevanchist]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I have. Please reat the original post.

The counter side of this debate never has any actual "reasons" why these endings are good. They just defend Biowares "right" to have it in the game, and think we should just accept anything and everything a company does without complaint because they have the "right" to do w/e they want. While we...as consumers...have to just accept it.

Pay no attention to these types of people, only adress people who can actually defend these endings with logic and sense.

[Giguelingueling]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sick and tired of BioWare hiding behind this, it seems they've taken the views of hack journalists to heart and are running around calling this ending "art".
No, Mass Effect 3 was art. The ending was like taking a beautiful painting and covering it with tar.
You're not defending art, BioWare, you're defending the tar that covers it.

I don't want to be talked down to and have it explained to me in game just why this ending is deep. It is n ot. It is mean spirited, malicious and cruel. It is thoughtless, hateful and without hope.
It violates the theme of Mass Effect and ruins the characters.

Take a lesson from Bethesda and admit when you're wrong, BioWare. The game is the artistic integrity you must preserve, not this slapdash failure of an ending.

Now, some of you may disagree. Fine, you can keep your ending and I hope you enjoy it, but I will keep fighting for mine. I will not "settle".

It's art. The ending is pure art.

To be able to screw up an entire trilogy in just 5 minutes demand a lot of work and dedication. 

[SovereignWillReturn]

LordHelfort wrote...

Games are not art, will never be art and should not be art.

They are a product and entertainment, and should be constrained by the rules regulating those categories.

This so much

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

noob25 wrote...

So you want it changed to what you want?

No, we want it changed to what they REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY promised throughout the entire year leading up to ME3's release.

Whatever that happens to be, I can accept and appreciate.

[WilliamDracul88]

Is see no reason for this. We have delivered our demands, asking them to change what we believe is broken. There is no good explanation, we are not discovering anything new; when you do something, and people don't like it, you just can say "it was my choice". Fine. But it is OUR choice to protest that. And our choice to buy the games OR NOT, if we don't agree with their choices. As simple as that.
I personally don't agree with their ending; I wan't it fixed, not to my pleasure, but to the promises I received BEFORE buying the game. It's not a monetary question, it's about someone mading a promise to me and don't keeping it. They can ignore us and let this stagnant, fine. But we can also dissaprove that and never buy again a goddamn game made by them.
It's pretty cristaline to me.

Modifié par eghbdgdsgh, 21 mars 2012 - 07:47 .

[Lugaidster]

The Angry One wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

This entire thread is just nonsense.

Oh look the white knights have arrived. Hail brave heroes, set to defend BioWare no matter what.
Art can be nonsensical you say? This is not a damn Picasso, this is a videogame, a 3rd game in a trilogy that has never been nonsensical. It utterly violates it's "artistic integrity" to be nonsensical in the last 10 minutes.
What say you now? 

That you don't understand what neither art nor integrity means. 

[TheRevanchist]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

noob25 wrote...

So you want it changed to what you want?

No, we want it changed to what they REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY promised throughout the entire year leading up to ME3's release.

Whatever that happens to be, I can accept and appreciate.

Exactly...this whole fiasco has NOTHING to do with us "Not getting it"...as Bioware loves to claim every time we complain about...well anything of theirs....it's about not getting what we was OUTRIGHT PROMISED...REPEATEDLY!

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I have. Please reat the original post.

And like I said, in your opinion.

Now explain why Bioware needs to apologise. Explain what is wrong about the art that they need to admit.

I already did. Your white knighting is getting annoying, either make a valid point or stop pestering your elders.

No you never. You stated it violated the artistic integrity and that Bioware needs to admit when they are wrong, but you have presented nothing but your opinion as to why they are wrong.

Please explain why it violates the artistic integrity without using your opinion, otherwise this entire thread is just nonsense, as a thread stating "It never violated the artistic integrity Bioware is right" is equally as valid.

Stating an opinion as fact and expecting Bioware to admit whatever warped thing you want them to because it violates your opinion is ridiculous.

[KaMai19]

Sentox6 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

The idea of imbuing a corporate entertainment product with some sort of sacred mantle of protection via "artistic integrity" is not only ludicrous, it can not lead to anything good. For one, it provides an excuse for developers to not adhere to their pre-release promises (which is exactly what is happening here). Furthermore, in an industry where refunds are very difficult to come by, the last thing developers need is another defence againt consumer criticism.

It's not ludicrous. Musicians have to deal with record labels. Writers have to deal with NY publishing houses. Video game developers have to deal with producers. There's always been a push and pull between artists and the people who turn art into greenbacks, but it's a balance. Discarding the intellectual rights of the creator completely - that's what's ludicrous...or at least WAY too simplistic. You really want Hollywood producers to be able to change a movie every time they think it will make more money? You want the studio to be able to tell Christopher Nolan they're adding a hot vampire chick to Dark Knight Rises because it tested well with a sample audience?

What kills me about this whole thing is that the same people who rag on EA for cracking the whip, rushing development, and muscling in on their developer's artistic integrity are now rooting for EA to do the very same thing to BW.

[Lugaidster]

MOELANDER wrote...

Yes Video Games are art. BUT!
Video Games are also consumer products. We as customers have a right to complain and to demand changes to our product! If the strangely formed seat of your sportscar gives you a backache but the designer won't change it because it's "art" will you accept that and ruin your back?

In consumer products you can ask for change but you can't demand. Given that you're being so pragmatic, what you can do, depending on laws on your country, is demand a refund if the product is unsatisfying. Many outlets are doing that. In the case of the car, you usually get a refund.

[Wildhide]

Fix1o0 wrote...

I'll show you art

My lord, is this a Da Vinci?

[TheRevanchist]

Fix1o0 wrote...

I'll show you art

Yep...totaly art.....right there....so much time and effort went into this single piece that we can never comprehend it's brillience so therefor when we complain about it we simply "dont get it". It is our own fault that do not appriciate the massive effort and artistry this single piece took to create...

Modifié par kylecouch, 21 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[Lugaidster]

kylecouch wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

noob25 wrote...

So you want it changed to what you want?

No, we want it changed to what they REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY promised throughout the entire year leading up to ME3's release.

Whatever that happens to be, I can accept and appreciate.

Exactly...this whole fiasco has NOTHING to do with us "Not getting it"...as Bioware loves to claim every time we complain about...well anything of theirs....it's about not getting what we was OUTRIGHT PROMISED...REPEATEDLY!

Wellp, you have two choices well within your rights as a consumer. Ask politely for a change, or ask for a refund. It works the same in every other industry. 

What baffles me is that some people are doing neither and demand attention because BW doesn't comply.