210 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolven_Soul]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're changing the subject.

It's up to you to explain why that's not art, and why Bioware need to apologise for it.

I have. Please reat the original post.

And like I said, in your opinion.

Now explain why Bioware needs to apologise. Explain what is wrong about the art that they need to admit.

You really have not been paying attention to any of the arguements that have been going on since the beginning of this whole debacle.

[xxskyshadowxx]

To quote someone from a different forum a few years back: "What is 'artistic integrity"? A highly politicized term. An artist who does not get paid for his/her work has all the integrity in the world - that is they can write, draw or paint whatever they feel like. So does an artist who sells the work to whomever will buy it. But if an artist is in some way subsidized, it is likely because the middleman has a vested interest in the artist's work. The artist wants integrity? Be completely independent. The artist needs support? Screw the integrity. It's the way of the world."

[iamthedave3]

This reminds me of receiving feedback on my stories.

If I hand a story to a beta reader and they come back telling me it's superb but the ending is appalling, I have two options.

1) Proclaim that they 'do not understand' what I wrote, and ignore whatever other points they have raised (grammar/spelling/consistency errors) or

2) Recognize that they may have an issue and if necessary consider changing it.

Is my artistic integrity being sacrificed because I altered my work due to feedback?

[Phearmonger]

Vaktathi wrote...

Phearmonger wrote...

Grasich wrote...

superwampa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...



Take a lesson from Bethesda and admit when you're wrong, BioWare. The game is the artistic integrity you must preserve, not this slapdash failure of an ending.

Can someone enlighten me on what Bethesda did? 

They screwed up FO3's ending, then went and created Broken Steel to fix it, even admitting "We made a mistake"

Actually, what they "fixed" was the fact that FO3 gave an end game screen after tha main quest and wouldn't let you play further. They did not change the ending, and Broken Steel in fact dumbed it down by making your sacrifice of your life at the end, if you so chose to do so, amount to nothing more than a bump on the head that you wake up from two weeks later.

That amounts to changing the ending. The hero doesn't die at the Water Purifier, instead they awaken to continue the fight against the Enclave remnants later. That's definitely an ending cahnge.

Maybe, but actually to make it work they should have totally changed the ending in that case. Making you just magically wake up afterward cheapened it. This is actually a classic example of how changing the ending haphazardly destroys an otherwise solid ending, except for the whole "Why didn't Fawkes go in since he was immune to radiation anyway?" thing. Don't get me wrong; I'm not posting this to pooh-pooh the desire to create a better ending sequence in ME3. I just think this is the wrong example to use because it argues against the notion that knee-jerk changes to a story are desirable. Otherwise, though, Broken Steel was absolutely fantastic.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sick and tired of BioWare hiding behind this, it seems they've taken the views of hack journalists to heart and are running around calling this ending "art".
No, Mass Effect 3 was art. The ending was like taking a beautiful painting and covering it with tar.
You're not defending art, BioWare, you're defending the tar that covers it.

I don't want to be talked down to and have it explained to me in game just why this ending is deep. It is n ot. It is mean spirited, malicious and cruel. It is thoughtless, hateful and without hope.
It violates the theme of Mass Effect and ruins the characters.

Take a lesson from Bethesda and admit when you're wrong, BioWare. The game is the artistic integrity you must preserve, not this slapdash failure of an ending.

Now, some of you may disagree. Fine, you can keep your ending and I hope you enjoy it, but I will keep fighting for mine. I will not "settle".

How much more melodramatic can you possibly get? I'll check back tomorrow.

[Vhalkyrie]

Since when is "deus ex machina" considered art?

[Clayless]

Sentox6 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
That's great but it's technically not what this thread is about, and is somewhat derailing it. I feel that there are many other threads that cover that subject and we should instead focus on what this thread is about and not clutter up the responses.

I'm not intending to change the discussion topic, I'm just giving my perspective relative to the OP. Specifically:

1) I agree "artistic integrity" is not a valid defence against making changes/additions to the game.

2) I disagree that BioWare should make changes because it violates a subjective intepretation of the game's artistic characteristics. That being said, there's nothing wrong with saying BioWare should add "better" endings.

Absolutely.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

To quote someone from a different forum a few years back: "What is 'artistic integrity"? A highly politicized term. An artist who does not get paid for his/her work has all the integrity in the world - that is they can write, draw or paint whatever they feel like. So does an artist who sells the work to whomever will buy it. But if an artist is in some way subsidized, it is likely because the middleman has a vested interest in the artist's work. The artist wants integrity? Be completely independent. The artist needs support? Screw the integrity. It's the way of the world."

Agreed.

[k8ee]

I posted this elsewhere, but I think it applied here:

As someone who has a masters in fine art, let me just say that there is good art and bad art, and ultimately artists have critiques with each other to dissect and criticize the "SUCCESS" of a piece.

Only a very slight number of people (and even these are not always agreed upon) fall into the category of "artistic genius", and not every one of their creations is a masterpiece.

Do artists rework their art? ALL THE TIME. Hell, they even rework other people's work.

What am I saying? Not all art is SUCCESSFUL. and as the artist you are well within your right to keep it, change it or THROW IT AWAY.

So BW, consider this outrage as your first critique - and remember that the harder the critique, the better off you become. Take what you hear and make your art BETTER, don't confine yourself with the belief that you are infallible artistic geniuses. Of course we appreciate your hard work, but realize that if the entire game was a train wreck there wouldn't be nearly as many people upset.

In the meantime, I will remain cautiously optimistic for a proper resolution to this mess.

Modifié par k8ee, 21 mars 2012 - 08:37 .

[iamthedave3]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Since when is "deus ex machina" considered art?

Since videogame players have very, VERY low standards.

Some endings have meaning, some are trying too hard to be meaningful. ME 3 is the latter.

[Claym0re]

If I ever see someone describing any movie, video game, book etc... with these two words "artistic integrity", I will avoid those like plague.

Modifié par Claym0re, 21 mars 2012 - 08:30 .

[El Capt Mexico]

I have to say that spending most of college days around "artists" and their artwork, the term "artistic integrity" seems to only be pulled out when most people don't understand or dislike something they made. They cross their hands while saying, "you just don't get it," and you the viewer are just left with a headache. To my surprise I was considered more of an illustrator than an artist because although you could see the effort and clarity of my work, there wasn't this deep underlying emotion or message behind my work.

So in the end when I hear someone say "artistic integrity" it's just uppity artists saying that I'm an idiot and they are geniuses because their work is so profound I shouldn't even look or comment about it.

[Shavyer]

This is real art: http://trompelemonde...ent-1917-t1.jpg

the bad part is that this sculture says more to me than the ME3 endings, specially about how i felt after playing the ending... xD

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh so the people who hate the endings feel the ones who liked them should be spat on with this DLC?

[TheRevanchist]

El Capt Mexico wrote...

I have to say that spending most of college days around "artists" and their artwork, the term "artistic integrity" seems to only be pulled out when most people don't understand or dislike something they made. They cross their hands while saying, "you just don't get it," and you the viewer are just left with a headache. To my surprise I was considered more of an illustrator than an artist because although you could see the effort and clarity of my work, there wasn't this deep underlying emotion or message behind my work.

So in the end when I hear someone say "artistic integrity" it's just uppity artists saying that I'm an idiot and they are geniuses because their work is so profound I shouldn't even look or comment about it.

Yep...thats basiclly what this boils down to..>Bioware did the EXACT same thing when ppl complained about DA2. "You ppl just dont get it....our work is genious..."

[k8ee]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh so the people who hate the endings feel the ones who liked them should be spat on with this DLC?

DLC is optional. Why would they force it on anyone?

[TheRevanchist]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh so the people who hate the endings feel the ones who liked them should be spat on with this DLC?

people who like it dont have to buy it?

[Costin_Razvan]

k8ee wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh so the people who hate the endings feel the ones who liked them should be spat on with this DLC?

DLC is optional. Why would they force it on anyone?

Because God forbid people would like more closure even if it they like the endings as they are right now eh?

Sure go ahead. That I like the endings doesn't mean I don't have problems with them, big ones at that.

You do not ****ing justify DLC that would change the endings saying it's optional.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 mars 2012 - 08:39 .

[izmirtheastarach]

kylecouch wrote...

Yep...thats basiclly what this boils down to..>Bioware did the EXACT same thing when ppl complained about DA2. "You ppl just dont get it....our work is genious..."

It's a great defense, but only if their goal is for everyone to play the game ONCE, and once only. Considering how much Bioware talks up the replay value of their titles, that cannot be their actual intent.

[JMA22TB]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm sick and tired of BioWare hiding behind this, it seems they've taken the views of hack journalists to heart and are running around calling this ending "art".
No, Mass Effect 3 was art. The ending was like taking a beautiful painting and covering it with tar.
You're not defending art, BioWare, you're defending the tar that covers it.

I don't want to be talked down to and have it explained to me in game just why this ending is deep. It is n ot. It is mean spirited, malicious and cruel. It is thoughtless, hateful and without hope.
It violates the theme of Mass Effect and ruins the characters.

Take a lesson from Bethesda and admit when you're wrong, BioWare. The game is the artistic integrity you must preserve, not this slapdash failure of an ending.

Now, some of you may disagree. Fine, you can keep your ending and I hope you enjoy it, but I will keep fighting for mine. I will not "settle".

What I find amazing is how anyone can value 75 critical opinions over at least 60,000 people.

Granted, this is a lot of PR on their part. I wouldn't want anyone saying my nearly universally top rated work is flawed, but when that many people are almost all saying "dude you're ending sucks," the appropriate response is "my bad we're gonna fix it" not "it's art we made it deal with it"

It looks like they're addressing it but until it's released all we've got are carefully said words from heavily edited public speak.

[izmirtheastarach]

^ And of course for every one of those 60,000 people, there are a dozen who feel the same way but can't be bothered to speak up.

I think this is a wonderful example of the fact that game reviews have become completely useless to consumers. What game reviewers are looking for is completely disconnected from what consumers actually want.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 21 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[izmirtheastarach]

My favorite part of the art argument is that the ending is really the work of one writer. It ignores or overwrites much of the wonderful work that other writers did to make the rest of the game so strong, and so full of emotion.

So what you are really saying is the this ONE writer's creative rights trump those of every other writer or artist involved in the game.

[Costin_Razvan]

Why is us getting the endings we were promised (not A, B, C or R, G, any less important than you keeping your endings?

How I throw that back at you: How is you getting the endings you wanted more important then keeping the current ones and adding to them?

How about we get cinematics at the end showing off our squad fighting for their lives with the other people we had in ME2 ( like say Zaeed, Grunt or Jacob ) and the other races you gathered, and depending on your choice and EMS they either all die, or some die, or all fine.

How about that eh? Then add in a funeral for Shepard if he died, changing quite a lot depending on the choice made as Control/Destroy/Synthesis and your EMS OR if you made the destroy choice AND had high EMS then you get a sort of post-ending scene like DA:O with your squad members and the people you cared about.

Why wouldn't that be better?

 
My favorite part of the art argument is that the ending is really the work of one writer. 

You are saying Walters was the only guy involved in the ending from the writing team? Really? Sure he has the final as the lead writer but he also answers to the Lead Designer who THEN answers to Hudson, who THEN answers to the CEOs of Bioware.

If you think the ending choice was made by Walters or Hudson or the lead designer the you don't know what you are talking about. It was a decision made up the highest chain in Bioware and possibly EA.

It's like blaming all the issues of story in DA2 on Gaider, but Gaider does not have a final say, not by a longshot, nor does Mike Laidlaw of Mark Dararh.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 mars 2012 - 08:54 .

[Lugaidster]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

My favorite part of the art argument is that the ending is really the work of one writer. It ignores or overwrites much of the wonderful work that other writers did to make the rest of the game so strong, and so full of emotion.

So what you are really saying is the this ONE writer's creative rights trump those of every other writer or artist involved in the game.

Lol wut? What does it matter if it is the work of one or several writers? It's still art. If you put a wonderful painting inside a horrible frame, the painting is still art as ugly as the whole picture may be. 

BTW, your post makes little sense...