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Rot in the Black City Alistair!!!!


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#26
Mesecina

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Malaia wrote...

 So first play through I was an elf, totally enamored of Alistair. I twinkled down to my little toes every time he kissed me. I marveled at his rose, I got goosebumps during our romantic ---ahem---night. I giggled at his talks with everyone.. and made him king and he DUMPED ME!!!

The racist jerk DUMPED ME!!!


Yeah. You showed him you didn't care about his feelings and that you valued him more as a tactical asset than a lover or friend. And then he dumped you for the exact same reasons.

Shock.


But as an elf do you really want a daughter of someone who was selling elves off like cattle on the throne? And taking into account her daddy will always remain her one true hero.
So do you even have a choice even if we completely ignore what happens to City Elves with Anora in charge (as that's not something your PC could know in advance)?

Of course it's different if you're a dwarf because you have no moral or other obligation to human kingdom or elves for the matter.

Then again if you're human noble I don't think many would be willing to look past the fact Loghain was partially responsible for your family's demise and also we can assume human PC grew up with tales of Maric's awesomness and love affair for his blood that should not be wasted that easily...

#27
Recidiva

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ReubenLiew wrote...

Well let's put this in perspective then.
Would a Dalish Elf EVER let a mere shemlem become their leader/whateveritscalled?
Would a Dwarf ever let an elf become it's King?
These aren't races we're talking about. We humans have the excuse that we're all still humans, but an elf and a dwarf and a human and a qunari, they're almost a different species (except for the fact that somehow humans and elves share the same amount of chromosomes to reproduce, who'da thunk?) to each other.
Demanding to be queen (they wouldn't even let a human commoner become queen except for extreme cases like Loghain being a teryn, which is the equivalent of a Baron or Count) much less allow a second class citizen to be queen. It's not a democracy it's Feudalism.


And I spent the whole game CHANGING that wherever I encountered it.  And I didn't see any reason to stop there.  I considered myself the best candidate as Alistair and Anora were both clearly lacking in the brains and courage department.  Choosing between backstabbing business as usual or idealistic Chantry-dogma or ME was no choice.  If they can't see that, too bad.  Lost your chance.  Oooh, look, darkspawn coming.  Bye!

#28
SilkyChicken

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god i hate elfs.

#29
Lianaar

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Well, if the Queen is no option, and the bloodline died, then Teagen and Eamon are the best candidates via their marriage to the Maric family. There are customs and laws to be kept. Feudalism is the state's form. You can demand female voting right for the evles, but not even commoners have that. Only high nobility.

#30
ReubenLiew

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Let's not put RP into the equation. This isn't a PnP RPG, there are obvious limitation to how much freedom you can have with your character. Sure it might be in character to do something or another, but if it obviously leads towards a no-win scenario, it's a bad choice to put in the game, and going berzerk on every noble in the landsmeet is tantamount to a no-win scenario.



But if you're just here to hate on Alistair, then fine, it's your choice.

#31
Recidiva

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ReubenLiew wrote...

Let's not put RP into the equation. This isn't a PnP RPG, there are obvious limitation to how much freedom you can have with your character. Sure it might be in character to do something or another, but if it obviously leads towards a no-win scenario, it's a bad choice to put in the game, and going berzerk on every noble in the landsmeet is tantamount to a no-win scenario.

But if you're just here to hate on Alistair, then fine, it's your choice.


Let's not put RP into the equation?  How is it not the entire equation?

As a player, Alistair's awesome, I love his writing, I love his acting, I love the game.

As certain characters, I'd have murdered him based on circumstances.  It's all about RP.  I have a real life.  I make real life choices there.  I play the game for RP opportunities.  It is in fact a Role Play Game.  How do I take that out of the equation?

You don't always win with every roleplay.  But you have a drama.  That was my drama.  So the game for that character ends there, I start again as a male dwarf, everyone's new to me again.  How do you not experience the game in roleplay terms?

That's like telling me I should take all the numbers out of a math problem and then solve it.  But...there are no variables then.  And now I'm bored.

#32
Bhatair

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Changing the structure of society is dependent on the society. Ferelden as a whole is not ready for Elven Monarchy. They'd sooner have yours and Alistair's heads on pikes in the alienage than accept a non human on the throne. Racial acceptance for elves could be achieved. but much farther down the road.

#33
Kohaku

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Recidiva wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Well let's put this in perspective then.
Would a Dalish Elf EVER let a mere shemlem become their leader/whateveritscalled?
Would a Dwarf ever let an elf become it's King?
These aren't races we're talking about. We humans have the excuse that we're all still humans, but an elf and a dwarf and a human and a qunari, they're almost a different species (except for the fact that somehow humans and elves share the same amount of chromosomes to reproduce, who'da thunk?) to each other.
Demanding to be queen (they wouldn't even let a human commoner become queen except for extreme cases like Loghain being a teryn, which is the equivalent of a Baron or Count) much less allow a second class citizen to be queen. It's not a democracy it's Feudalism.


And I spent the whole game CHANGING that wherever I encountered it.  And I didn't see any reason to stop there.  I considered myself the best candidate as Alistair and Anora were both clearly lacking in the brains and courage department.  Choosing between backstabbing business as usual or idealistic Chantry-dogma or ME was no choice.  If they can't see that, too bad.  Lost your chance.  Oooh, look, darkspawn coming.  Bye!


Technically, you didn't change anything.

The Dalish still have an elf leader. The Dwarf's still have a dwarf leader and, by golly, the Humans still had a human leader. All we did in the game was complete quests so that these groups had different leaders.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:28 .


#34
Revik

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There is something we are also forgetting. Lets ignore the fact that elves are essentially lower class citizens.

The fact of the matter is elves and humans cannot have children together. Must be some kind of genetic incompatibilty. Ever notice how there are no half-elves, half-dwarves, etc? That's because it is not possible and having an elven queen would mean no children or heirs to the throne. THIS is a really big problem for a king and/or kingdom that believes in monogamy.

That being said for all Alistair's big talk he's still a tool of the system.

#35
Bali_of_Terenas

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Recidiva wrote...

[
So HE picks this moment in time to back down in the face of moral attitudes for expediency's sake?  Really?  After having made or broken dwarven kings and wiped out large swaths of the population one way or the other making exactly the same decisions and changing politics all over Ferelden, THIS Is when he decides not to even ask or consider alternatives?

Biggest cop-out ever.  


Well keep in mind it's not him that did those things but you.  He states early on that he doesn't want to lead and so we fill that role even though we are new to the Wardens.  While our companions will throw in their opinions from time to time they are all firmly in our shadow (which Alistar essencially points out during some of his end game speeches). 

With a country that's days out of a civil war and decimated by the Blight sacrificing his personal attachements for the greater good is the right thing to do.  After all that's the sacrifice part of being a Warden and King.

All that said though, ticking off the woman who just spent the last few years cutting a swath of destruction across Fereldon may not be a great idea :)

#36
ReubenLiew

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Right so what was the argument again?

Did you want an option to murder everyone? Or were you just here to hate on Alistair? Which is fair, I guess. You ended your game right there because apparenlty you went ax-crazy and you died in the attempt? Is that what I'm getting here?

I thought you were asking for an option to kill him or force him to change his views or something. My mistake then, carry on making the poor sumb**ch pay for his 'racism'.

#37
Lianaar

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Revik wrote...

There is something we are also forgetting. Lets ignore the fact that elves are essentially lower class citizens.
The fact of the matter is elves and humans cannot have children together. Must be some kind of genetic incompatibilty. Ever notice how there are no half-elves, half-dwarves, etc? That's because it is not possible and having an elven queen would mean no children or heirs to the throne. THIS is a really big problem for a king and/or kingdom that believes in monogamy.
That being said for all Alistair's big talk he's still a tool of the system.

It is stated IG that elves and humans can have children. They are always human however.

#38
Riona45

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Revik wrote...

There is something we are also forgetting. Lets ignore the fact that elves are essentially lower class citizens.
The fact of the matter is elves and humans cannot have children together. Must be some kind of genetic incompatibilty. Ever notice how there are no half-elves, half-dwarves, etc? That's because it is not possible and having an elven queen would mean no children or heirs to the throne. THIS is a really big problem for a king and/or kingdom that believes in monogamy.
That being said for all Alistair's big talk he's still a tool of the system.


Humans and elves can in fact have children with each other, it's just that the result is always a human child.  It's actually worse for elves than for humans (such pairings mean less elves will be born).

#39
Recidiva

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Bhatair wrote...

Changing the structure of society is dependent on the society. Ferelden as a whole is not ready for Elven Monarchy. They'd sooner have yours and Alistair's heads on pikes in the alienage than accept a non human on the throne. Racial acceptance for elves could be achieved. but much farther down the road.


Right.  So my character gets that.  She doesn't have to accept it just to get to the end of that game.  All motivation for killing darkspawn is gone and she's now willing and happy to watch Denerim burn, and every single candidate to the monarchy with it.  Scorched ground is now fine with me.

I'm not rejecting the premise, I'm rejecting cooperating with the results of the premise.  In that particular play through, that's the point at which that character's journey was over.  There's no more reason for her to make jolly or make nice or care about anything any more.  Everything she was using as the motivation to continue on...just evaporated.  So in this case that character doesn't successfully wipe out the darkspawn.  That's okay with her.

Same with my playthrough as the dwarven noble.  He only cared about revenge on Bhelen.  So I go back to Orzammar first thing and that's done.  No more motivation.  Okay.  Let's reset and try another one.

It's not always about finishing the game.  I have finished the game several times, but some play throughs don't hold my interest until the end, or something like that happens and my character wasn't constructed in a way to adapt and that character implodes.  That's cool.  That's part of playing and probing the game.

That's most of the fun for me, and the game allows me to do that.  That's that character's story.  There are other stories, but inherent in the game is the idea that at some points, you're going to die.  You either reload and try it again or say "Oh, that was a good death, right there, I think I'm done."

#40
TastyLaksa

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SilkyChicken wrote...

god i hate elfs.


Say that again in front of my elven bloodmage comrades (yes all elven mages are blood mages)

#41
Yorenec

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I wish there was a subforum solely dedicated to housing threads about people being butthurt over Alistair or Morrigan dumping them.

This one would be a much cleaner place.

Modifié par Yorenec, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:35 .


#42
Bhatair

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Recidiva wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

Changing the structure of society is dependent on the society. Ferelden as a whole is not ready for Elven Monarchy. They'd sooner have yours and Alistair's heads on pikes in the alienage than accept a non human on the throne. Racial acceptance for elves could be achieved. but much farther down the road.


Right.  So my character gets that.  She doesn't have to accept it just to get to the end of that game.  All motivation for killing darkspawn is gone and she's now willing and happy to watch Denerim burn, and every single candidate to the monarchy with it.  Scorched ground is now fine with me.

I'm not rejecting the premise, I'm rejecting cooperating with the results of the premise.  In that particular play through, that's the point at which that character's journey was over.  There's no more reason for her to make jolly or make nice or care about anything any more.  Everything she was using as the motivation to continue on...just evaporated.  So in this case that character doesn't successfully wipe out the darkspawn.  That's okay with her.

Same with my playthrough as the dwarven noble.  He only cared about revenge on Bhelen.  So I go back to Orzammar first thing and that's done.  No more motivation.  Okay.  Let's reset and try another one.

It's not always about finishing the game.  I have finished the game several times, but some play throughs don't hold my interest until the end, or something like that happens and my character wasn't constructed in a way to adapt and that character implodes.  That's cool.  That's part of playing and probing the game.

That's most of the fun for me, and the game allows me to do that.  That's that character's story.  There are other stories, but inherent in the game is the idea that at some points, you're going to die.  You either reload and try it again or say "Oh, that was a good death, right there, I think I'm done."


Oh, well ok then. I'm just too much of a softie to let Ferelden burn for any selfish reason I may have. But to each their own I suppose :P

#43
Recidiva

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Well keep in mind it's not him that did those things but you.  He states early on that he doesn't want to lead and so we fill that role even though we are new to the Wardens.  While our companions will throw in their opinions from time to time they are all firmly in our shadow (which Alistar essencially points out during some of his end game speeches). 

With a country that's days out of a civil war and decimated by the Blight sacrificing his personal attachements for the greater good is the right thing to do.  After all that's the sacrifice part of being a Warden and King.

All that said though, ticking off the woman who just spent the last few years cutting a swath of destruction across Fereldon may not be a great idea :)


Sacrificing personal attachments isn't wise if those personal attachments are the character's ONLY motivation for fighting the blight.

Right, in that case, Alistair didn't bother to learn anything about ME and now he gets to perish in the blight because of it.  Perfectly in keeping with the game premise.  

Ferelden as an NPC fails to persuade someone into saving it. 

Modifié par Recidiva, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:40 .


#44
Recidiva

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Oh, well ok then. I'm just too much of a softie to let Ferelden burn for any selfish reason I may have. But to each their own I suppose :P


I'm just about even on starting games/finishing them.

I've saved Ferelden a buncha times.  But oddly enough it always needs saving again...

#45
Bhatair

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Recidiva wrote...

Oh, well ok then. I'm just too much of a softie to let Ferelden burn for any selfish reason I may have. But to each their own I suppose :P


I'm just about even on starting games/finishing them.

I've saved Ferelden a buncha times.  But oddly enough it always needs saving again...


I just can't do "evil" :(
I can do snarky a hole though.

#46
Recidiva

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Bhatair wrote...

I just can't do "evil" :(
I can do snarky a hole though.


I can't manage a truly evil playthrough...siding with Branka, poisoning the ashes, saving the werewolves, becoming a blood mage by letting the arlessa sacrifice herself, killing Brother Genitivi, siding with the Templars...

I did all that stuff with one of my guys, but....I found out that by wiping out the dalish it wiped out my only renewable source of elfroot and I wasn't about to go into the final battle with seven lesser health poultices.  No thanks.

Never got far enough to suck all the life out of the Alienage slaves, but that was about the only truly evil thing I hadn't done yet.  I guess I didn't fail to save Redcliffe either.  Too much lost potential quest exp.  Seemed a waste.

Modifié par Recidiva, 30 novembre 2009 - 05:49 .


#47
ReubenLiew

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It's not good to side with the elves! Just kill all the werewolves and ****** on their corpses, that's pretty evil too.

#48
Badpie

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Recidiva wrote...

Sacrificing personal attachments isn't wise if those personal attachments are the character's ONLY motivation for fighting the blight.

Right, in that case, Alistair didn't bother to learn anything about ME and now he gets to perish in the blight because of it.  Perfectly in keeping with the game premise.  

Ferelden as an NPC fails to persuade someone into saving it. 



So what you're saying is your PC on this playthrough is a giant baby who not only whines when she doesn't get her way, but is willing to ruin everything else for everyone because of it?  Interesting way to play it.  That's not sarcasm.  I actually think it's interesting.

So it's not actually YOU who wants Alistair to rot in the black city or thinks he's racist.  It's your character who is a total idiot.  Again that's a legit question and I'm not in any way calling YOU an idiot.  Just want to make that clear.

I like hearing about people's characters, so I find your self serving, bratty, tantrum having, clearly unstable character interesting.

#49
Recidiva

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Badpie wrote...

So what you're saying is your PC on this playthrough is a giant baby who not only whines when she doesn't get her way, but is willing to ruin everything else for everyone because of it?  Interesting way to play it.  That's not sarcasm.  I actually think it's interesting.

So it's not actually YOU who wants Alistair to rot in the black city or thinks he's racist.  It's your character who is a total idiot.  Again that's a legit question and I'm not in any way calling YOU an idiot.  Just want to make that clear.

I like hearing about people's characters, so I find your self serving, bratty, tantrum having, clearly unstable character interesting.


Yes, I think that it's about rage and betrayal and the nature of love and tipping point and that character didn't manage to balance her hope or rage well enough to survive that moment.  She left the Alienage as an infuriated rape victim who was convinced into continuing to live and not slaughtering every human she encounters by Duncan and then her fascination with Alistair.

I think the writing of Alistair is awesome and I love the voice acting and I can hardly bear to play a game without romancing him, I have to play a man in order to do that, and then I feel left out.  He's one of the most compelling and fleshed-out characters in the game.

I think it's due to the strength of that romance and how solid it seemed that having it turned off like a light switch just made that character lose it in that moment.  And I do that playthrough because I genuinely don't know what options are going to happen in that moment, but I want to know.  Does something different happen?  Is there some genius loophole?  Will high cunning make a difference?  Hell, the game's only been out for a month, and it's so complicated, who knows what hasn't been discovered yet with a zillion cunning points.

You can call it brattiness and tantrum.  I consider it passion and the result of being betrayed in such an unexpected and unanticipated manner.  The unwillingness to accept the loss of true love or seeing that the love you thought was true was only a convenient happenstance, to be discarded when no longer convenient.  The complete unwillingness to accept that outcome, no matter how pragmatic or "reasonable."  Because love isn't reasonable and that character loved Alistair without reservation.

My real life choices to the situations are irrelevant.  It's all about the choices I made when constructing my character.

Roleplay construction of a character is a different thing, and in order to make an INTERESTING character that's going to respond differently to game situations, I think you need to make it interesting, have weaknesses and flaws.  The makers of the game got this when they constructed every party member available have a fatal flaw and an irrevocable purpose and a crisis point or two.

The issue for this character is WHY are elves considered second class?  I'm an elf, standing before you, having done all these things, and you're going to reject me on such a foolish basis?  And it is foolish.  For Ferelden to not learn that after all I've done to save her, for Alistair to not fight in any way and back down in one sentence...that's betrayal. 

And I'm not going to rewrite Romeo and Juliet just so everyone lives at the end.  That's..boring.

Yes, I've played the ideal game where I make everyone happy and I get the ideal ending and everyone's got what they want.  After doing that, it's time to see how something else works out.  Replays give the opportunity to construct different scenarios.  Every other character in the game has a crisis point.  That was my character's crisis point.  Perfectly in keeping with the spirit of the game.

#50
Cpl_Facehugger

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Recidiva wrote...

GmanFresh wrote...

you cant be queen as a elf.


*draws her bow and gestures to Shale and Dog to stand by her*  Really?  You sure?  Totally sure?  Not going to even consider it? 


*Crushing Prison. Forcefield. Cone of cold. Stonefist. Chain Lightning. Combat Magic.* 

Now then, Elf scum. If a human mage can't be queen, there's no way I'm going to let a filthy knife-ear take the throne! Have at thee! 


:P