594 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

MintyCool

Quit trolling buddy....you cause is dead in the water lol....you are very alone....q

[soundhole]

Darthlawsuit wrote...

JohnnyG wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Blizzard was going to add a system called Path of the Titans into cataclysm and they never did. Nobody claimed flase advertising. A lot can change over the course of development, quoting something Bioware said months before the game released is irrelevant because plans can change. 

 Interviews are not applicable to false advetisement because thy center around current ideas and do not reflect the finished product. 

All the one below I we know for certain were said after the game went gold.  So yes, these statements were meant to reflect the finished product.  There are more, but I just grabbed a few of them to prove my point.  Though, it doesn't seem like you are willing to listen.  Your choice, of course.

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

2/28/12

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make”

2/2/12

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”

Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

3/2/12

Production of CD's can begin a month or two before the game is released. So yeah it was already done.

Indeed, the game went gold Feb 13th

http://www.gamespot....es-gold-6350250

[heathxxx]

Eterna5 wrote...

JohnnyG wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

pjotroos wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

So is this false advertising a new angle you guys are trying to exploit as validation for your cause or something?

Seems like you guys come up with a new one every week.

Nah, it was "not getting what was promised" from day one. It just so happens we were promised a fitting ending to the trilogy and got anything but.

Yeah but, promising something isn't the same as false advertisement.  Maybe if it were to say on the box "The Rachni quuen has a huge effect!" you'd have a case. But believing everything developers say will make it into the game is unrealistic and an error on your part. 

From dictionary.com...

[ad-ver-tahy-zing] noun
the act or practice of calling public attention to one's product, service, need, etc., especially by paid  announcements in newspapers and magazines, over radio or television, on billboards, etc.: to get more customers by advertising.

So what they said was advertising?  Yes.  Was what they said true?  No?  That makes it false, does it not?  Thus...

False Advertising

 Blizzard was going to add a system called Path of the Titans into cataclysm and they never did. Nobody claimed flase advertising. A lot can change over the course of development, quoting something Bioware said months before the game released is irrelevant because plans can change. 

 Interviews are not applicable to false advetisement because thy center around current ideas and do not reflect the finished product. 

Whilst that may be true for interviews prior to completion of the product, there are many of the interviews and quotes that are dated after the software will have been data locked and ready to distribute. Therefore they do indeed focus on "finished product".

Whilst most sensible people will appreciate that things can fluctuate and change wildly throughout duration of production, at the very least, BioWare must learn a harsh lesson from all this.

They need to keep a track of what they're saying and publishing in the media, most notably, what they're saying alongside their advertising and promotion.

That said, I suspect that much of the problem is essentially poor PR management on the part of EA Games. They're simply notorious for it. At some point, failing to learn the lessons of the mistakes they insist on making time and again, will hit them where it hurts them most.

EA either needs to be more flexible with its deadlines for release on such large scale and ambitious productions, or it needs to enforce a much stronger non-disclosure policy, whereby all employees have to toe a narrower line regarding what they say to the media.

We'd all like the former, but the latter is always going to be more likely. If they don't get the latter right, then they must face the music from disgruntled customers and potentially, legal ramifications including... yes... false advertising.

[Jaraldur]

Great post! +1!

[Aaleel]

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…”

This is the one that just sickens me every time I see it.  But all of them together just shows that Bioware knew what people wanted and just chose not to do it.

Modifié par Aaleel, 22 mars 2012 - 12:13 .

[DreamTension]

+1

[merylisk]

Thread title is a bit inflammatory, but the points are solid. +1

[Lord_Nikon]

JohnnyG wrote...

\\\\Snip
All the one below I we know for certain were said after the game went gold.  So yes, these statements were meant to reflect the finished product.  There are more, but I just grabbed a few of them to prove my point.  Though, it doesn't seem like you are willing to listen.  Your choice, of course.

\\\\snip

Most of those quotes could in fact refer to the game as a whole rather than the end, excepting the one about the rachni...

But don't get me wrong, I do feel the ending was weak.  And I do want them to change it.  but my "Ideal" ending would have to rework the entire game...  the ending would be set in stone by the time you deal with the geth/quarian issue.

[wintermaul55]

Militarized wrote...

That's quite the list they have to deal with. Very accurate though.

I hear this coming...
" Thanks for the feedback" 
"what is your favorite color"
lol

[puldalpha]

Bioware is going to learn that it isn't ENTITLED to make lies and fake promises to sell games and use game critics to make a game's ending richer and deeper than it truly is.

[blmlozz]

I agree with you OP, and I also agree with this;

but my "Ideal" ending would have to rework the entire game... the ending would be set in stone by the time you deal with the geth/quarian issue.

an 'ideal' ending for me would involve a total rework for the game. It's far too linear as it stands, your 'choices' from the previous games are nearly irelevent as they stand. Certinally it would be incorrect to say nothing changes, but as a means to the end, it doesn't matter if you devoted 100hours of time to ME1&2 or if you started a brand new ME3+ game.

The rachni being a perfect example; It doesn't matter if you let the queen live or die in ME1, in ME3, you either get to save her again, and get EMS, or you get to save another queen that was magicly made from the other rachni and get EMS..
see how they did that?... your decisions mattered right there... NOT.

Modifié par blmlozz, 22 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[Solduri]

puldalpha wrote...

Bioware is going to learn that it isn't ENTITLED to make lies and fake promises to sell games and use game critics to make a game's ending richer and deeper than it truly is.

[Nyctyris]

I think the main point about all the quotes the OP put up was that this is the main counter to game journalists and ending-supporters who feel that dissatisfied fans are "entitled".

We expected a certain ending based on a) what the game was generally known for (varied endings, lots of choice, lots of factors coming into play and what the devs promised it would be.

Yes, things change in development, but the main reason I thought ME3 would have an ending(s) which factored in my in-game decisions was because Bioware TOLD FANS that this would be the case. If they had said right from the start they were going for something different... well, not sure how I would have felt, but at least I would have expected it, and not felt let down.

[JohnnyG]

Nyctyris wrote...

I think the main point about all the quotes the OP put up was that this is the main counter to game journalists and ending-supporters who feel that dissatisfied fans are "entitled".

Yes, and BioWare as well.

[pjotroos]

I think everyone's ideal ending has to stay in the real of could-have-beens, really. Especially since we never had the extent of customisation you're mentioning. But one that's actually playing off your major choices in a minor way (i.e. benefit from the support of krogan, geth or rachni shown in some cutscenes) and depends wildly on the effective army strength, and allows us to either defeat the reapers or loose to them, would still satisfy everyone well enough to not taint the experience retroactively.

[CarGryph]

Precisely.

Hold the Line.

[yoshibb]

So, you want your game to be considered art, but you sell it to people like you would a used car. They don't see anything wrong with this?

[fafnir magnus]

Bump, any moment this isn't on page one right in bioware's vision is a moment wasted on less important threads.

[pjotroos]

Up you go!

[phrizek]

This is a major reason why we are all disappointed, and yet I haven't read much in the media about it. Instead they ridicule us as entitled whiners when we were set up for disappointment in the first place. The movement needs to concentrate on getting the word out about all the misinformation Bioware fed us before launch.

[clos]

This is the best breakdown of all the misleading statements that Bioware made in order to entice you to prepurchase the game I've seen.

How can anyone think all these official statements line up with the reality of the platter of crap of an ending they made?

Simply put, they don't. We've been taken for a ride and robbed blind.

[whydoyouwanttoknow]

[quote]Valo_Soren wrote...

[quote]JohnnyG wrote...

Dear Dr. Ray Muzyka,

Per your request, I am providing constructive criticism for BioWare regarding Mass Effect 3.  In my mind, the biggest issue is the breaking of trust between your company and its consumers (which is manifested in many ways, the ending merely being the most poignant).

Below are quotes that were made by BioWare before the game was released.  As such, they represent a spoken/written promise by you to your customers regarding Mass Effect 3.  Artistic choices are wonderful and should be allowed, except when you are producing commissioned art where you promised it would contain certain things.

If a painter has agreed to paint a wilderness scene for me, and I have paid them based on that promise, are you saying they have the right to give me a painting of a cityscape instead, and that I simply have to accept it because their "artistic integrity" is at stake?  I didn't think so.  So while your argument for artistic choices is understandable, unfortunately the moment you began making promises to your consumers you became bound to them.

So here are some of the promises that BioWare made, and that many feel you need to correct in order to fix this problem.  I was contemplating going through and making certain sections bold, but then I realized that I would need to do that for nearly every part of every quote.  Instead, I will just let them stand and hope you guys do the right thing.

We want to believe in you again, BioWare.  Please do the right thing and don't let us down.

[quote]Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome.”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”

Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”[/quote]
[quote]Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”

Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is.”[/quote]
[quote]Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike Gamble.[/quote]
[quote]Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html

"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a totally different way of playing"[/quote]
[quote]Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/

“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”[/quote]
[quote]Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.”[/quote]

[/quote]

I wouldn't get your hopes up. They are compromising and everyone wins, I highly doubt they are going to apologize directly for every single detail. Quit while you're ahead.

[/quote]

No one wins in a compromise.  A compromise is making sure everyone is equally unhappy.

Bioware gets to be happy unless they're taken to task for false advertising.  Until then they're getting to have money fights in their office.

[puldalpha]

bump to keep this in page 1

[animallover11]

JohnnyG wrote...

Thanks guys. I just hope this doesn't get buried into oblivion.

You're right. This post should be noticed.

[Kulthar Drax]

I couldn't agree more with your OP, JohnnyG. There's really nothing I could add.