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#26
bzombo

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willsanders84 wrote...

Interesting. I just hit up youtube to listen to some PS:T tracks. I agree with you all, and think that your faith in bioware is well founded. After listening to Deionarra's theme, however, I realised that this probably wasn't the right place to write such a post, although I have to say you've all tempted me to play the game. I think perhaps I'm better off going and reading a book.

I recollect parts of Little Big Adventure, or Planescape, and the bits that I remember seem so far removed from killing anything, or gaming in any way.

I'll say this, taking your comments on board; good on you bioware, you didn't create some hack and slash mmorpg. You've made people think it seems. Ok you've used the typical game selling techniques, but can I blame you for that?


i suggest you try it. a lot of us were down on the video game industry and dragon age has been great. i've wait for this game for years and i am not disappointed. the game manages a nice balance most games fail at. it has good tactical combat, character development, a good story, decisions have consequences, and so on. i don't think you'll be disappointed, especially since you are not alone in your opinions on here.

#27
GHL_Soul_Reaver

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they need to go back to niche gaming architecture, it was what made games fun... take FPS games if the game is developed over the same model as all the others or just use of same engine then you dont need to buy all the games, you just need one... and probably the best made on that same engine... all the rest is just trash not worth throwing your credits at and that is about it.



Even though I don't like World of Warcraft then the Blizzard team really made something they could sell, the problem now is that everyone try to copy there game and yet those copied games remain in the shadow because WoW grants it all and got known by there way... instead of having original gameplays and the likes they try to copy it and often with no real success as it is.



I wish that game companies would try to do it there way rather than what everyone else is doing.. or a touch of each game the best touch of course and putting it all into a new game that has a taint from all the games out there but yet way different and revolutionairy aspects to how stuff should be done with personal and original unique ways of development.



But it all is just hybrids... dunno last original game was the new Operation Flashpoint, yes it had the touch from back then and well the options for setting the difficulty to nearly real time is very nice indeed it kept original, but granted something more interesting into the game... as well for an instance.



I feel like I am rambling right now and people would probably agree to that as it is... but I too hunger for something really touching.. more depth is needed... I still like to play DAO though... but it wont last unless somethign radical really happens.

#28
MarloMarlo

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willsanders84 wrote...
It's a sin, and I hope that soon we all become so bored of someone's forced to take a risk and create something original and beautiful.

My heart weeps for your beautiful snowflake soul. Oh woe is your refined taste, which sits upon a gilded mantle above the unwashed masses! If the sound of the plebians breathing from their mouths wasn't so loud and vulgar, you'd be able to hear my tears express their sorrow for you.

#29
willsanders84

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Thanks Marlo, I appreciate it.

#30
SheffSteel

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Making an original game design is tough. The people who see the success of, say, BioShock or WoW and say, "we need a piece of that" are the ones who control the money, not the people who think, "but they already have a WoW-like game to play... it's called WoW". Show them something groundbreaking and original and they won't understand it, and they sure as hell won't know how to market it - unless you describe it in terms of other successful games that they might know: "It's basically WoW with a Gears of War atmosphere and the setting from BioShock but with the combat system from Demons Souls"... and then they say, "Tell me, what sets this game apart? What makes it unique?"

#31
Odysseus44

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All in all, for such a high-profile game from a major developper, DAO feels like an aberration. It doesn't follow the modern gaming trends nor Bioware's own evolution. It was even developped primarily for PC!



Even though it's easy to see how compromises have been made to broaden the appeal and the accessibility of the game. The there is the long developpement time/hiatus. And then the console ports. But still DAO emerged in a recognizable form, from a bygone era of pc RPGs, and Bioware's own golden past, instead of Mass effect with swords&sorcery...



Somehow, somewhere someone at Bioware must still be passionate about it.

#32
Revanis

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Anyone who thinks Bioware has ignored or abandoned art or creativity in the gaming industry clearly does not understand what creativity truly is.



I've been an actor/director for years, and we are always pushed by the bottom line. You are entrusted with other people's money to create something profitable, which includes excellence in product and something the public will pay to experience. The restrictions placed on an artist DO NOT HAMPER creativity; rather it should enforce and inspire creativity.



This is a basic principle in all art. Unbridled freedom leads to predictability, staleness, and often self-indulgent, ego-stroking pandering. Place a restrictions on the artist and you force creativity to occur. It is amazing and inspiring that Bioware can create a game that not only plays well as a game, but moves a story that grabs you and lets you feel as if you are in the moment.



The commercialization of the gaming industry isn't the deathknell to creativity. It equips and challenges game designers to not only be artists but be good game mechanic designers. Many companies are unable to succeed at merging the two, I believe Bioware is.



Final thought: Bioware isn't able to create the type of games they have without their financial success rate as well. If Baldur's Gate, NWN, and KotOR had been commercial failures, they wouldn't even prolly be around today. Kudos to them.

#33
Inhuman one

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You know, there is one thing about medieval fantasy RPG's that amuses me to no end.



Removing the fantasy part and simply draw from medieval europe to create a story and characters would be very original for an RPG and would make it stand out far more than any purple dragon, darkspawn, drow, orcs, dwarves, magic, massive armor designs and rediculously large weapons ever could.



A feasible scenario could be made, it could be fictional within this setting like something that could have happened.



Instead of picking a race, you would pick a country your character hails from. Based on the country you could get bonusses for weapons, skills, etc.



The english could get a bonus with longbows, Genoans could be better with crossbows, the french could be better cavalrymen, The Norse could get a bonus with axes, etc.



Of course not all englishmen where good with longbows, but the same could be said about skill bonusses in fantasy games. Not all dwarves might have skill with axes.



Eitherway, such a setting could bring together quite an interesting group as well, something that is more recognizable. An RPG does not require magic to be interesting.



Party member options could be: A Norse Viking, An english archer, a Templar Knight, A thief, a monk, A scottish clansman, A janissary, an Halberdier, A smoothtalking Italian duelist, etc.



If you throw in mounted combat, a good and enjoyable melee system, useable enviroment, bandages and sleeping in beds for recovery, no one would miss magic.



Of course the game should not be fully realistic because of gameplay purposes, a bandage could pretty much work like a health potion, otherwise your party wouldnt last long.



During the game you could also encounter some well known historical figures on the sideline.



As for the story, the crusades, the reconquista, the french-english war or any of the many wars fought in this period could be the backdrop.



Considering class variety, there could be base classes such as marksman, knight, bandit, sergeant and skirmisher.



And of course some sort of prestige classes for each of them.



marksman: Longbowman, horse archer, assasin.

Knight: Templar knight, Teutonic Knight, Hospitaller Knight.

Bandit: Pirate, thief, Rogue.

Sergeant: Guard, Man at arms, Mercenary.

Skirmisher: Assasin, Hunter, Scout.



And all of them could have their strenghts and weaknesses.



Marksman: good at range, poor at melee. Moderatly effective on horseback, depends on the weapon being used.



Knight: powerfull on horseback, diciplined and educated. Weak with ranged weapons but can inspire others with leadership.



Bandit: versatile and shady character. They are good at making threats, scavenging weapons and armor and fight dirty.



Sargeant. A common soldier. While most profficient with melee weapons such as spears, axes and swords, they are less skilled in the use of swords than knights and have a bit less dicipline and are not such great riders as knights. However they are far more capable at using spears and halberds than knights, and can perform tasks knights would consider to be beneath them such as digging and some light blacksmith work.



skirmisher. Kind of a crossover between a bandit and an archer. They are more capable in melee than archers and are more profficient with throwing spears than any other class. They know how to use the terrain to their advantage and can lay ambushes and create traps. They move quite fast on foot. In melee they are quite weak when not on the offensive however, and their range with ranged weapons is less than that of marksmen.




#34
willsanders84

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Inhuman one, I like your idea, because it's completely original within the rpg sphere. The scope for ideas is incredibly deep.



Revanis, I completely disagree. What was Da Vinci doing, copying? Did they need helicopters in the 15th century? Matisse just being egotistical was he?



I think that mostly, artists given freedom, I agree, fail. Except the good ones. The good ones create original and beautiful works of art which change our views of the world. You don't get your perspective of the world changed by a product of capitalism, that's riduculous.



Frankly, I'm an artist, and I'd rather earn my money cleaning in the hope of producing original, great art, that have my creativity bridled by what the majority think they want.

#35
JohnnyYaya

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OP - Is Art really the main reason you play games in general? If so, I'd wager you have a pretty small collection. I play games because I enjoy interacting with dynamic systems that present me with scenarios I can't experience in real life. Sure, some games do it better than others, and some do present themselves with some amount of Artistry and/or Innovation, but those are hardly the only criteria by which a game can be defined/judged/enjoyed - most especially a hack-n-slash RPG.



Also, noticing that fewer and fewer things are new and amazing is just part of getting older. It's not exactly Bioware's fault that you have reached a point in your life where your wealth of experience makes new things seem like only minor iterations on what's gone before.

#36
Unstepped

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Welcome to 2009 poster.

#37
willsanders84

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I completely agree with you JohnnyYaya. I do play some games for the pure enjoyment of them; Counter-Strike and Civilization II spring to mind as favourites and complete opposites. The reason, however, I started this thread, is beacuse I think that the RPG is such a good platform. It's all about creating and environment that we feel part of, and that's a very powerful thing.



I just feel that considering the great RPG's that have been released previously, and the resources that game designers now have, surely they would have got better? No, I'm silly to think so and I know I'm wrong, but it just frustrates me to think that they haven't when there's such oppertunity now to grab a player by the neck and drown them in a game that isn't only enjoyable, but also insightful.

#38
JohnnyYaya

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willsanders84 wrote...
Frankly, I'm an artist, and I'd rather earn my money cleaning in the hope of producing original, great art, that have my creativity bridled by what the majority think they want.


That is just backward. I mean, you're right that a lot of what gets produced for the masses ain't no high-falutin' gallery Art, but you're wrong in thinking that an artist's creativity is bridled by attmpting to create something that is artistically appealing to the masses. To my mind, finding and hitting that sweet spot where you can appeal to the most people while at the same time competing with all the other voices in the marketplace requires some actual brilliance. Especially now when the money people have to spend on entertainment is much more restricted.

#39
willsanders84

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Sorry, yes, that IS what I think. Great art has mass appeal, but it's not often created by conforming to mainstream views. I've always thought that good artwork should be universal, but not created on the basis of appeasing everyone. It should be shocking, and eye opening, and original. It should not be made purely to quench the thirst of the masses, but rather make them want a different drink.

#40
Inakhia

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I also think if you want breathtaking originality then looking for the *bignames* to deliver maybe isn't such a good idea. Bioware and Blizz are amazing companies who produce some of the best (imho) finely crafted fantasy games around. But I'll admit their not completely original or with mind blowing stunning art.. If you want that you should probably be looking at the low end indie gaming companies.

Be in mind the kind of mind blowing art requires either very high end machine/console to run the 3d graphics at such detail, or very low end exquisitely detailed old school hand done art/animation.

Big game companies work by making art that exists within a definable genre. It lets consumers recognise what their buying and they can sell more if they make sure that more users than not can install their games on a wide variety of machines.

But just because a game falls within easily defined boundaries doesn't mean it isn't a brilliant piece of work. I will admit console games have very very shiny graphics....and yet the only console I own is a wii, because no console games have yet ignited that "must have" desire in me to play them. My PC games however, may show slightly tattered or dated graphics, but the game play and story always leaves me happy.

#41
willsanders84

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I agree entirely, the big game producers just can't afford to take chances anymore. But you said it, game play and story!

#42
chuckles471

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Dude, lighting up. Do you listen to the cure? By any chance.



"Art" is something that should be enjoyed (I know it depends on what viewpoint you have on art but I don't care if people enjoy things I don't like) and if people like Modern Warfare, well it is art to them and you can have a big cry to yourself. I don't think computer game developers have ever said "MMMMMMNNNNNNNHHHHHHHH let us make ART"(unless they are complete mentalists). I think they say "what do I enjoy about playing games and how can I implament that into the game we are making". Most people in the industry still have pride in their work(just listen to bioware talk about dragon age) and you saying you read stuff like Greek mythology(the Jerry Springer show of the day just with more sex, gods and "man love") won't make them change their minds.



Yes, your right it has gotten more corperate but that's just because instead of a room full of people to make a good game, you need a building full of people to make a good game(maybe even a couple). You need some kind of structure to make sure they get good results and the people making the games need some green so it isn't the greatest way but it is the best we have(like capitalism).



To even be fair fire "shed" loads of criticism at the games I think are "art"(by that I mean really good).



Dragon Age (really good story, some filler but characters are really good)

Modern Warfare ( a "short" thrill ride but really fun)

Theme Hospital (just liked it)

Broken Sword (I liked it better than discworld, sorry Terry)

Tekken 2 (Not the game itself but playing with my friends)

Final Fantasy VII( And I think EMO Cloud is a £$%^*! but it was the first game to draw me in)

Suikoden 2 ( Most enjoyable story ever in a game)

Baulders Gate 2 (loved it but I like Dragon age better)

Deus EX (No words needed)



I have more but don't want to take up the whole of the screen. Fire away.



P.S. Cheer up, you still have your health. ;)




#43
Inhuman one

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And Bioware of course has their reputation to uphold, after Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic and Jade Empire the expectations of Bioware went through the roof and may have become impossible for them to fulfill.



Thats the case for me at least, They said they wanted to work on their own IP's because they claimed to have the luxury problem of too much creative talent. If someone claims that, I would half expect something of the scope of lord of the rings or star wars.



I have considered Bioware to be the best developer out there for a long time, but lately I am having second thoughts about that and might reconsider that statement. Dragon Age does not improve the way the story is told, which is something all other Bioware games before it did.



They played too much on safe, and I smell EA behind it which is known for easy sequels. They may have forced Bioware to not take any risks, like they do with pretty much all developers they publish for.




#44
Roxlimn

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The best art has, in many cases, been created EXACTLY to conform to mainstream views and cater to the masses. That is what iteration and evolution does - it evolves a product until it is perfect. Art-as-expression or Art-as-entertainment is not an exception to this phenomenon.



Many artists (such as yourself apparently) have this notion that art should be revolutionary. This cannot be and is, by nature, simply an elitist perspective. The norm cannot be revolutionary by definition, and if by definition you describe good art as being only the rare, then what you're defining is revolution, not entertainment, appreciation, or expression.



Shakespeare's plays were meant to cater to the masses. Are they not art? Sydney Opera House is the same - meant to be aesthetically pleasing to most people. Not art? Da Vinci himself is not immune to this. Many of his works were made expressly to cater to the whims of his patrons - purely commercial ventures, if somewhat leaning to a luxury item. Not art?



Most films are made with the intention of selling tickets. Is a movie not art unless it purposefully makes you want something different?



In that case, nearly all indie films are NOT art because they are usually singularly unsuccessful at making people in general want new things, and most mainstream new film ideas are art because they are.



Case in point: Cowboy Bebop. This anime offering is a strong introduction to many North Americans to anime and makes them want more. Surely, that is art by your argument?



Conversely, Citizen Kane - only film critics are really familiar with this at this point in time, and at no point has the swing of mainstream approval hinged on this offering. So it is not art?

#45
Haexpane

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Inhuman one wrote...

And Bioware of course has their reputation to uphold, after Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic and Jade Empire the expectations of Bioware went through the roof and may have become impossible for them to fulfill.

Thats the case for me at least, They said they wanted to work on their own IP's because they claimed to have the luxury problem of too much creative talent. If someone claims that, I would half expect something of the scope of lord of the rings or star wars.

I have considered Bioware to be the best developer out there for a long time, but lately I am having second thoughts about that and might reconsider that statement. Dragon Age does not improve the way the story is told, which is something all other Bioware games before it did.

They played too much on safe, and I smell EA behind it which is known for easy sequels. They may have forced Bioware to not take any risks, like they do with pretty much all developers they publish for.

Well we don't know what happened behind the scenes, but historically whenever game devs say "we don't need no stinking license, our unlicensed or "spiritual sequel" will be way more awesome than the OG..." it never pans out that way.

NFL 2k5 - All Pro 2k   from great to HOLY COW THAT STINKS!

Everquest CHampions of Norrath to Untold Legends (this was a Sony thing, the snowblind Devs were not on UL) went from great series to unplayable generic garbage, which was odd considering Sony owns Everquest.

Baldur's gate to generic fantasy of DAO - "great game, but BG2 was way better in almost every way

Grand Theft Auto to Crackdown - added some cool gameplay but lost 80% of what made GTA great

Considering how KOTOR literally shocked the RPG world and the Star Wars world in both gameplay and storytelling, it was interesting to hear that somehow a license can be restricting.

The D&D licenses is fantastic,  lets face it.  Baldur's Gate 2 was genius, and D&D was not 100% followed.   The restrictions are almost always worth the trade offs.

Was Mass Effect really better than KOTOR?

Jade Empire bucks the trend, but there is nothing to compare it to, hardly any Martial ARts RPGs exist

History has shown that even the strictest license in the hands of a world leading dev lik Bioware can lead to amazing things, mind blowingly great game..

#46
willsanders84

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Yeah it's a shame game designers don't take risks anymore. Like you say, EA, they wouldn't know art if michelangelo's david walked in and told them all about it.



And chuckles, funny post. Creeping around behind guards on Deus Ex then making a quick getaway after a crafty tranquilizer dart WAS art. I agree. Commanding a tank, properly, on battlefield, that's art. And no I don't listen to the cure!



I'm currently listening to the Planescape: Torment soundtrack. I'm not doing my appreciation of DAO any favours am I? :)



Art can mean really good, I concede that art is everywhere, in dragonage I'm absolutely sure, and more so than in 90% of other games. But unless it really grips me. Really does something to me, I can take it or leave it. Unless I just feel like blowing someone away with a shell from a tank. And who doesn't from time to time.

#47
Shinji Ex

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OP wrote: "I've never played Dragon Age" Play it then will talk :lol:

#48
Roxlimn

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Few games are powerful enough to really move people based on visual feedback alone. That's why they're games and not purely audiovisual media. DAO moved me based on the entertainment value of the game mechanics. That is how I expect to be moved by a game.

#49
VanDraegon

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It would be a pretty poor business decision to invest so much time and money into a wildly new setting for an rpg without any kind of idea how it would be recieved. Bioware has had a lot of success with the "normal" fantasy setting. There are a couple reasons for that. One being people like that type of fantasy setting. It has been hugely popular for many decades. The other being Bioware is very good at what they do.

People want to be the hero of a dark and dangerous storyline. They do not want to be the store clerk that sell goods to the heros. Asking for something ground breaking out of company that makes games to provide entertainment to as many people as possible and profit from their sales is naive, imo.

#50
Sable Phoenix

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I too hold Planescape:Torment in highest esteem as the greatest computer game of all time.  The characters still remain in my mind as some of the most memorable in all fiction, regardless of genre.  It is the only game which has actually made me shed tears by the end.

Until Dragon Age.

Okay, okay, I didn't actually shed tears.  Slight exaggeration.

I did get choked up, however.

More than once.

Quite frankly, Dragon Age is the most emotionally involving game since KOTOR, and Planescape before that.

Dragon Age is superbly written and acted, and the characters, at least some of them, are arguably as memorable as the ones from Planescape:Torment.  And as wonderfully open-ended and low-impact as the decisions you could make in Planescape were, I never, ever agonized over one the way I did over some of the choices Dragon Age presents you with.  While in Planescape you were confronted with choices that had consequences primarily only for yourself as the Nameless One, in Dragon Age you are confronted with choices that have consequences primarily for those who have chosen to follow you and whom you have come to care for.  And the predicament about that is you often appear to have no good choices at all, but are forced to try and make the best of a bad situation, or sacrifice your personal desires for the greater good.  A perfect example are some of the decisions that must be made surrounding the Landsmeet, especially if you have played as a female character who romanced Alistair; no matter what you do, nobody's going to be happy.  Dragon Age is full of memorable moments, some combat related, but many more otherwise.

So yes.  The advertising highlights the classic sex and violence and makes it look like primarily a combat simulator.  The actual experience is something else again.

All that being said, this reply...

MarloMarlo wrote...

willsanders84 wrote...
It's a sin, and I hope that soon we all become so bored of someone's forced to take a risk and create something original and beautiful.

My heart weeps for your beautiful snowflake soul. Oh woe is your refined taste, which sits upon a gilded mantle above the unwashed masses! If the sound of the plebians breathing from their mouths wasn't so loud and vulgar, you'd be able to hear my tears express their sorrow for you.


... was incredibly hilarious, as well as having a legitimate point.  Not everything you do for entertainment has to be life altering.  Sometimes it's perfectly fine just to be entertaining.

Dragon Age is that, and more.  Don't criticize it before trying it.  It's unjust.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:50 .