204 réponses à ce sujet

[Shallyah]

I am a firm line-holder, and I believe Ray Muzyka makes a very complete and integral statement. I feel much better knowing that there will be more Mass Effect coming to adress our concerns, even in the shape of new full games, because, admit it, we all love Mass Effect and it's a grandious franchise. As Mr Myzuka himself says, the best they've yet crafted.

He asks us to be constructive, and that insults or personal attacks will be not only disregarded, but also not tolerated. Which I also support. We've always asked to keep civil and polite, and phrase your opinions more as requests than demands.Any who reorts to insults is simply not welcome in the line.

And if the line turns to welcome these offensive people or insults, I'll be sure to find my way out of it.

Modifié par Shallyah, 21 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[Murkman4683]

Do you guys want Ray to personally call everyone that is part of "hold the line", would that make you happy? Of course it is PR related, it is a general statement to everyone who has played or is playing Mass Effect.

"Troll the Line" - 2012

[ericjdev]

Shallyah wrote...

I am a firm line-holder, and I believe Ray Muzyka makes a very complete and integral statement. I feel much better knowing that there will be more Mass Effect coming to adress our concerns, even in the shape of new full games, because, admit it, we all love Mass Effect and it's a grandious franchise. As Mr Myzuka himself says, the best they've yet crafted.

He asks us to be constructive, and that insults or personal attacks will be not only disregarded, but also not tolerated. Which I also support. We've always asked to keep civil and polite, and phrase your opinions more as requests than demands.Any who reorts to insults is simply not welcome in the line.

And if the line turns to welcome these offensive people or insults, I'll be sure to find my way out of it.

I'm with you

[Qutayba]

Of course it's PR-speak. Be patient and see what they announce and produce in April. If it's condescending crap, they know what we'll do. But it might be close to what we want. Give them a chance, but hold them to account.

[Lugaidster]

Ok so we have this on the blog:

"the passionate reaction of *some* of our most loyal players"
"some of our loyal fans are passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game concluded"
"most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better."

Instant reaction by the trolls:

"OMG he said we are a minority!!!!"

Really?

About the only questionable part in that statement is this: "most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional" and I think it's pretty clear that if we go to the user reviews of the game here or elsewhere, most posts can be summarized as "95% of the game awesome, the end sucks". So is the guy downplaying it a little? Sure. Offending and saying we are a minority? O_O!

[Phearmonger]

Iwillbeback wrote...

No I just want the plot holes fixed and the magic gone and the laws of physics fixed(a.k.a shepard wounds and where he lands after the explosion).

If you want the magic gone they'll have to remake the entire trilogy. Indoctrination, space-time manipulations via element zero, mind-speaking beacons, biotic powers, giant metal lobsters killing all spacefaring life and never leaving a clue behind. Like it or not, this is a magic-based sci-fi story. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Just remembered the biggest piece of magic: medi-gel.

Modifié par Phearmonger, 21 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[Tovanus]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

You know, he mentioned the critics opinions in the beginning to say how that would be foolish of them to defend their product in that manner solely?

There are also many different fans with different ways in how they responded to the endings. Just because he didn't praise all in Jesus' name about the ReTake movement doesn't mean that the destructive behavior mentioned is on that group (ReTake wasn't mentioned at all, so members getting upset at it are just jumping at shadows).
We also don't have access to personal BioWare emails and messaging over all forms of public domains. To say that there is hardly any personal attacks because we don't see any on one forum is naive. Most of those messages people would send, they wouldn't want public more-than-likely. So keep in mind that nothing is happening outside of your personal scope.

It still is PR talk to help pacify both fans and shareholders, which is why that little advertisement was added in.

BioWare does need to recognize what TakeBack is doing, and should put in a word to the media to not be so negative towards disgruntled fans and they will retain the same access as they normally would. When BioWare makes the official announcement, they should talk about specifically where they went wrong and why their intentions didn't successfully please the audience.

We gained a decent amount of ground today. BioWare admitted that what they did needs to be worked on, and we were given a timetable on when we can hear more on what that work entails. Let's take that as we continue to hold the line.

I'm not angrier at Bioware because of his statement. It's not as if it makes me feel more upset at them. I'm just saying, it doesn't really change my opinion of them. Without details about what they may change, we don't really have any reason to believe that the change won't be some minor fix. People should complain as much as they ever have.

And as for critics citation, I just find it lame. Not angering, but insincere. They have no credibility, and shoudn't be mentioned at all. It's a crutch, a rationalization for them to think that what they did was good with that ending to journalists critically reviewing it. Anytime they mention the scores they receive from "official" reviewers (i.e. people like IGN), there should be a giant, collective eye-rolling. I'm glad to see that the forums here have a huge amount of that eye-rolling.

[Ville L]

AllergevKev wrote...

Basically our movement got addressed by not the just project lead of Mass Effect, but by the company's co-founder, and you guys aren't happy?

He's not gonna come right out and say the ending sucked, what exactly do you expect of these people. There a company, not the messiah.

You seriously think he wrote himself that? He just signed what EA pr team came up with, most likely just read it through once. And are we supposed to suck their asses because of that blog post, yeah "Sorry that we said negative things about your beloved ending. that blog post fixes everyhting."

[Kataigida]

Quietness wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

Seriously?

    After the lashing they took from the fans and giviing us what we asked for, I firmly believe that they are allowed to vent and maybe slip in a little f*** you to the ones that harassed their employees (hell we should do that for them). I'm fine with what was said.

 

Kataigida wrote...

 I am sorry that people have attacked the team, I truly am, because I know that they hurt how the rest of the fans are viewed, but in all of my time forum-surfing, I have seen very few personal attacks on members of the BioWare team. With this being said, most of the people providing criticism have been civil about their views. If anything, the fans are more likely to start 'attacking' each other as they try to say why their view is 'correct' then they are to attack a member of the BioWare team. 

I understand that they would be upset about personal attacks on their team. I understand that they would want to put it out there that they want it to stop. I am sorry that there are people that would do such a thing, and I do not think such actions would ever be acceptable. However, the way that they went about talking about this problem, made it sound like there are a lot of people that are doing this.

I cannot speak for any phone calls/emails gone out to BioWare, but those are private. In public, most people are not delivering such attacks, and are in fact being civil about the issue. Because of this, making such a statement about the issue in public makes it seems as if a lot of people are doing this/that this is happening in public. However, looking about the forums I have found little evidence of public attacks on the BioWare team, and because of this, I think that the statement he used to discuss these problems was gone about the wrong way.

PS I'm sorry if this is confusing, my thoughts have started to scramble a bit.

[Lugaidster]

Ville L wrote...

AllergevKev wrote...

Basically our movement got addressed by not the just project lead of Mass Effect, but by the company's co-founder, and you guys aren't happy?

He's not gonna come right out and say the ending sucked, what exactly do you expect of these people. There a company, not the messiah.

You seriously think he wrote himself that? He just signed what EA pr team came up with, most likely just read it through once. And are we supposed to suck their asses because of that blog post, yeah "Sorry that we said negative things about your beloved ending. that blog post fixes everyhting."

In that case, why would your version of the story be anymore likely.  You don't need to suck anyone's ass, but coming off as a douche isn't helping the cause anyway. But then again, haters gonna hate.

[Tovanus]

Phearmonger wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

No I just want the plot holes fixed and the magic gone and the laws of physics fixed(a.k.a shepard wounds and where he lands after the explosion).

If you want the magic gone they'll have to remake the entire trilogy. Indoctrination, space-time manipulations via element zero, mind-speaking beacons, biotic powers, giant metal lobsters killing all spacefaring life and never leaving a clue behind. Like it or not, this is a magic-based sci-fi story. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Nothing wrong with establishing "magic" or whatever you want to call it in a Sci-fi series. Sci-fi is built on mixing the laws of nature with "magical" exceptions.

However, it's well known to fiction writers, in Sci-fi or Fantasy, that you want to establish all of your "magic" exceptions as soon as possible, then stay within those barriers. Introducing new magic in the last 1% of a story that solves the big threat the protagonists have been fighting against is a massively bad way to do writing. Referring to it as magic is just a pejorative way of saying that it made a big mistake of not laying enough groundwork to justify how it ended.

[izmirtheastarach]

Who is this "Co-Founder"?

Do you mean the Senior Vice President and General Manager of the BioWare Label of Electronic Arts

[Zix13]

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey." That sounds really really really bad. Like, not changing the godchild scene to make sense. Or changing the ending to match the quality of the rest of the game.

"Mass Effect 3 concludes a trilogy with so much player control and ownership of the story that it was hard for us to predict the range of emotions players would feel when they finished playing through it." Wow. He just ignored a large part of the problem: The fact that there was no player control over the ending. In fact, this guy had the gall to lie about it after we've seen the ending.

I appreciate hearing from bioware, but this still seems like a bit of a "**** you" to everyone annoyed about the ending.

[Drak41n]

I thought what he said was great. He said they're doing something and he said we'll find out what soon. That great. Also, he should be proud of bioware. They did a lot of work to get Mass Effect 3 out. It's a really good game. The ending was weak, but they want to address that. You should be happy because they're not really required to do anything. They want to do something!

[tybbiesniffer]

Considering the insults I've seen thrown around about Bioware employees by name, I think it was an impressive display of moderation.  I agree that critic reviews aren't relevant.  I find them near worthless; I never pay attention to them for any medium.  But I also understand the need he has to defend the work they've done.  If Bioware is given half the chance to offer some closure and resolve plotholes, I still tlhink we can have a damn good story.

[Murkman4683]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Who is this "Co-Founder"?

Do you mean the Senior Vice President and General Manager of the BioWare Label of Electronic Arts

I am pretty sure he is the co-founder.

[AtreiyaN7]

Oh, you're offended and insulted by them making a concession, and you think they have no right to want to keep the artistic integrity of their own work intact while trying to satisfy people like you. Well, my heart really bleeds for you. *sarcasm to the infinite power*

[izmirtheastarach]

Murkman4683 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Who is this "Co-Founder"?

Do you mean the Senior Vice President and General Manager of the BioWare Label of Electronic Arts

I am pretty sure he is the co-founder.

He founded a company that doesn't really exist anymore. Just seems odd to refer to him that way, when he's now a corporate executive for Electronic Arts.

[Lugaidster]

Kataigida wrote...

Quietness wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

Seriously?

    After the lashing they took from the fans and giviing us what we asked for, I firmly believe that they are allowed to vent and maybe slip in a little f*** you to the ones that harassed their employees (hell we should do that for them). I'm fine with what was said.

 

Kataigida wrote...

 I am sorry that people have attacked the team, I truly am, because I know that they hurt how the rest of the fans are viewed, but in all of my time forum-surfing, I have seen very few personal attacks on members of the BioWare team. With this being said, most of the people providing criticism have been civil about their views. If anything, the fans are more likely to start 'attacking' each other as they try to say why their view is 'correct' then they are to attack a member of the BioWare team. 

I understand that they would be upset about personal attacks on their team. I understand that they would want to put it out there that they want it to stop. I am sorry that there are people that would do such a thing, and I do not think such actions would ever be acceptable. However, the way that they went about talking about this problem, made it sound like there are a lot of people that are doing this.

I cannot speak for any phone calls/emails gone out to BioWare, but those are private. In public, most people are not delivering such attacks, and are in fact being civil about the issue. Because of this, making such a statement about the issue in public makes it seems as if a lot of people are doing this/that this is happening in public. However, looking about the forums I have found little evidence of public attacks on the BioWare team, and because of this, I think that the statement he used to discuss these problems was gone about the wrong way.

PS I'm sorry if this is confusing, my thoughts have started to scramble a bit.

There was an assh0le on twitter that literally threatened Jessica, that tweet later got deleted obviously. He later went on to apologize but still. Who knows how much hate mail they've been receiving. Besides, there are quite a few here on the forum that have no qualms in deriding or dismissing people at Bioware. I agree that many have been civil, but it sure as hell is true that there are a few vocal haters. If on top of that you add oversensitive people then it starts to get nervewrecking (at least for me). 

[moonlightwolf]

 In PR speech theres a focus on not admitting mistakes.

The Art line he give only holds up if they don't admit the corporate reasons for the ending ie. an 'Ending explained' DLC plus comic books and novels all set between mass effect 3 and mass effect 4 to explain what happened.

dont take it personally all it means is we're getting there.

[GBJ13]

Telling people to stop attacking members of his staff is right. There's nothing wrong with him saying that. I think it'd be important to point out that's a minority of the people who dislike the ending and that both people who support the ending and oppose the ending have condemned personal attacks. He should have done that.

But, ultimately, these people work for him. They're part of his team. You get your team's back when other people are acting outrageously towards them. He did the right thing there. It sounds like they're thinking of doing the right thing with the ending.

[cinderburster]

GBJ13 wrote...

I wouldn't be offended to be honest. The reason they point to critics is because it's one of the indicators of success. What critics look for and what fans look for is different in some areas, but I think critics still want their reviews to be valued by fans, and I would add that some video game critics are fans. You don't devote yourself to being a movie critic, if you don't love movies.

If you got criticized by your boss for a project, but his deputy said you did a great job, wouldn't you mention what the deputy said? That's what Bioware is doing here. I think sometimes we just see them as people who want $$. In truth, I imagine that while they are motivated by profits, they really want to make a great game first and foremost.

Don't be offended. They're showing you how they feel about the whole endeavor. It's just part of an honest discussion. Hopefully, we can get some progress.

This.  I think his statements about the knee-jerk reaction of defending something they are undoubtably proud of and being able to look past it to the constructive criticism and take it to heart are far more telling than what he said about good ratings from professional critics.

[SnakeStrike8]

Kataigida wrote...

Critics:

- Gameplay: How well the game handled, as well as how easy the controls/functions were within the game.
- Graphics: How everything looks and how audio matches up with visual, and watching for any visual bugs
- Sound: How well the music matches the gameplay, and how well sound effects match up.
- Entertainment: How well the story works, and how satisfying it is to solve problems/kill things/do whatever the point of the game is
- Replayability: How likely they are to replay the game after playing through it.

It's worth pointing out as well that critics often have thier jobs tied to the games they review (see Jeff G., fired from Gamespot after whacking Kane & Lynch). Gamers do not, and thus we can be much more harsh in our criticisms of the game we bought without any of the fears that critics experience.
However, that works against us when we overstate a game's flaws and give little or no regards to everything it does right. See current user reviews of ME 3.

[streamlock]

Oh c'mon now. I mean it's just your usual PR drivil. At least he came out and said SOMETHING.

I do admit the saying something while saying nothing routine has grown thin on me as I age, but if that insults you then you must REALLY hate every elected official on the planet.

[Ville L]

Modifié par Ville L, 21 mars 2012 - 09:57 .