204 réponses à ce sujet

[SamFlagg]

Lugaidster wrote...

alex13abc wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

joe1852 wrote...

what aren't u guys offended by?

A lot of things, actually. A sincere message instead of a pile of PR garbage would have been a start. 

This.

Some people just need to drink a cup of "realistic expectations". The guy won't abandon PR just because the fans want to. If you are offended by PR, you have bigger issues. It's not like the company blew up a nuclear reactor. 

If you can get past the PR and read the message, there's a small but tangible victory right there. The war's not over, not by a long shot, but to be offended by it is being overly sensitive.

I agree.  Guys, don't fall into the PR trap of letting them tick you off, or even if they do, don't rage about that.  This was always going to be a marathon and not a sprint, so look past what's on the surface and agree that endings are on the table and frankly looking more likely.

Absolutely confirmed? No, but it's better than what we had.  You've got to remember that we're still in the financial quarter and PR responses are as hard as it would be to believe, not crafted specially for us.

[The Almighty Ali]

pschill97 wrote...

Stan Woo doing his usual thing

Which is to tell you to be civil, something the movement also encourages everybody to be.

[Kanon777]

Dont mess with the Woo



He's awsome

[Kataigida]

Lugaidster wrote...

Helishorn wrote...

"Minority" Let's see.

Global sales of the game as of March 10th = 2,398,027 sold (http://www.vgchartz.com/)

Retake mass effect estimated number =50,000

Percentage of fans voicing their anger at the game = 2%

Regardless of the fact he never said the word I am curious what your definition of minority is and why your think you're not it?

If you had more than two fingers of brain and actually knew one bit of socilogy you'd realize that there's no direct relation between the fans angry at the endings an the number of sales. For starters, you can't know for sure how many people actually have finished the game, and secondly, you can't know how many don't like it. Silence can add to both parts. There are a few ways to analyze the number none of which is "50000 is 2% so, herp derp, minority".

This essentially sums up what I wanted to say, if in a more expressive way. If anything, it should be surprising that as much as 2% are part of the movement. Please understand that most gamers are not inclined to visit the developers site/go online to complain/protest the game. Instead, they are probably more likely to spread their feelings through word of mouth, or put the game away and never speak of it again.

While it is true that a minority of people are voicing their opinion, at least fifty percent of the people who ARE voicing their opinion are against the ending. That is the important part, the people who are voicing themselves.

[RLesueur]

Aww come on, we're basically getting what we asked for. Leave them alone for a bit.

[AtreiyaN7]

pschill97 wrote...

Stan Woo doing his usual thing

Like doing his job and telling people to behave maturely and in a civil manner? Why yes, yes he is.

[Tyrzun]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some inappropriate material removed. This is a reminder that disrespect towards our developers or executives will not be tolerated. You can disagree all you like, you can hate all you like, but if you can't do it with maturity and respect, then you have no place here and will quickly find your posting privileges--and don't mistake me, your participation in this community is a privilege--removed.

Be excellent to each other.

You gave away your age Stanley.  Be excellent to each other?  Party on dude!

FYI they are making part 3, but I'm sure you knew that. 

[Almostfaceman]

I'm not a little offended, though I respect the OP's opinion and they make some good points. This is what I basicly take away from what the co-founder said:

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received."

WE are their research folks. We've already done a good job at providing feedback (look at the top three stickied threads) and we just need to continue to do so. We've made progress, they are listening and taking what we say into consideration. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 mars 2012 - 10:24 .

[Kataigida]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some inappropriate material removed. This is a reminder that disrespect towards our developers or executives will not be tolerated. You can disagree all you like, you can hate all you like, but if you can't do it with maturity and respect, then you have no place here and will quickly find your posting privileges--and don't mistake me, your participation in this community is a privilege--removed.

Be excellent to each other.

I apologize if anything I have said is out of line. And I would also like to apologize for anything posted on my thread is out of line (I feel at least partially responsible for anything posted on this thread since I created it).

If I have said anything out of line, please let me know and I will go back and delete/change things as necessary.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

........i swear. bioware cant say ONE WORD without this community being offended. even if the ending was good i bet everyone would still find reasons to get mad about it...

Modifié par UBER GEEKZILLA, 21 mars 2012 - 10:25 .

[leapingmonkeys]

Read his statement carefully. He did not say they would fix the endings, nor add gameplay that reflects prior choices. All he said is that they will add content to provide answers and closure. That means some sort of silly epilogue in which they try to further rationalize the non-sensical endings currently in ME3.

In addition, his tone is already defensive. He is clearly not acknowledging that the product, as delivered, does not provide a satisfying gaming experience.

His insistence on pointing to the "critics" is almost laughable. The critics didn't play the entire 60 hours of game play. They probably never played ME1 and ME2 in their entirety either. Which means that they have a limited grasp on the story arc and where it was building. So of course they are not going to notice that the end of ME3 takes a violent and irrational left turn. He then tries to claim that the '75 critics' are somehow the majority and that the 50,000+ customers are the minority.

He said nothing. He gave nothing. Bioware is holding fast to the promise to not fix the game.

[Kataigida]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

........i swear. bioware cant say ONE WORD without this community being offended. even if the ending was good i bet everyone would still find reasons to get mad about it...

There will always be someone somewhere that isn't happy about what is going on. However, if there are 'a lot' of people unhappy about something, then whatever it is that they are unhappy about probably has something wrong that would cause such unhappiness.

However, if the ending was 'good' then there would definetly not be nearlly as many people hurt about it, and there would probably be a lot more forums about how good the game was (because as a whole, it was pretty darn good).

[AegisOrnus]

Kataigida wrote...

I don't know how others have felt after reading the Co-Founder of BioWare, Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement, but personally it left me feeling a little offended...

Read your whole post and I feel that I agree with you whole-heartedly. I would say that I'm not as offended as I am disappointed that this is the response we're getting though. However, I am happy that we're getting what we wanted. Hopefully it's executed on par with the rest of ME3 and the series itself.

[clos]

Yeah, the guy is offensive to the masses and still refuses to admit their ending was a bunch of crap. That being said, I take pleasure in him having to apologize in any way or manner, you know he had to swallow his pride to say as much as he did. It's clear it's not a true apology and I love watching them squirm.

That being said, I will hold the line until they do a true ending. If they give us a crap DLC explaining crap ending then it remains crap. I have plenty of intellect to realize something is a platter of poo no matter how many times someone calls it art. If all they do is just explain the series will forever be a piece junk I'll never play again.

Bioware, stop insulting your customer base and grow some class. Be honest and tell us the truth, stop patronizing. You only make yourselves look even more pathetic than your currently are, all self-defensive and trying to explain away the incomprehensible.

[Reptilian Rob]

tobito113 wrote...

Dont mess with the Woo



He's awsome

[Kishala]

cinderburster wrote...

I think we need to stop shouting PR whenever someone at Bioware tries to say something. This letter he wrote says in MORE THAN ONE PLACE that they are addressing the issue. I think Dr. Muzyka is wise enough not to say something he doesn't mean, repeatedly, to be cited all over the internet.

"[...]most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s. Net, I’m proud of the team, but we can and must always strive to do better."

First bolded segment: isn't that what most of the reviews and critiques we fans have been giving have said? Most of the game is excellent, except the last ten minutes?

Second bolded segment: he's admitting that there's room to grow. That's not the admission of a man wrapped up in his own ego that can't see what we're saying. Cut him a little slack, guys.

I agree with you. As many of us have pointed out to others, Bioware included, we loved the game. Great story, fun gameplay. the ending was a different story. Re-reading what Dr. Muzyka wrote, I see now that he does acknowledge that point as well as admit there is room for improvement. You almost never hear that from a company or individual at a company, especially one that high up the command-chain. We still have to see where it goes, but I don't think anyone should count Bioware out just yet. Indoc theory is viable, intentionally or not, and Bioware still has a good writing team. they can still do good by us.

[Wiggly]

Kataigida wrote...

I don't know how others have felt after reading the Co-Founder of BioWare, Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement, but personally it left me feeling a little offended. If you haven't read the article, (though most on this site have by now I'm sure) the link is here:

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ 

After reading the statement, I felt a little insulted by the way that he worded his statement. While i am not out and out offended, or feel truly insulted, I found that they way that he went about this statement was a little demeaning to fans (that don't like the ending) such as when he said that they want to point to the critics and say that 'These people liked our game and gave it a perfect score.' He then goes on to say that instead, they will allow themselves to be 'humble' by accepting the criticisms and feedback of the fans. I am sorry, but critics and fans will point out two different sets of problems when addressing a game.

Critics:

- Gameplay: How well the game handled, as well as how easy the controls/functions were within the game.
- Graphics: How everything looks and how audio matches up with visual, and watching for any visual bugs
- Sound: How well the music matches the gameplay, and how well sound effects match up.
- Entertainment: How well the story works, and how satisfying it is to solve problems/kill things/do whatever the point of the game is
- Replayability: How likely they are to replay the game after playing through it.

Fans:

- Continuity: How well the game matched up with the game's direct predecessors. This includes matching up information presented in the series of the games, and how decisions/choices in the other games carry over into the current game. 
- Realism: How well the game matches up with how it has been portrayed/how it is compared to logic. This includes matching up how the character(s) act in previous games as compared to the current one, as well as how realistic everything is.
- Practicality: How well the game makes sense. This includes plot holes that may appear in the game, as well as any elements that show up because they were the only way to drive the plot in the way that the game went.
- Replayability: How likely they are to replay thegame after playing through it.
 

Another thing to note about these two, is that a) critics are paid to play these games. This doesn't always mean that they have played the previous games, and if they have, they are more likely to be detached from the game since it is their job to write unbiased reviews. Fans pay to play these games. This brings about a sense of responsibility for your character(s) and what they do, as well as a bias towards going 'in-depth' in the game and developing an emotional attachment to the storyline, character(s), or lore.


For this reason, I believe that when a fan has a problem with a game, they should not be pointed at critics, and vice versa. If critics have a problem with a game, they shouldn't be pointed towards the fans of the game. Fans and critics provide two different view points on the game, and how it should be viewed/reviewed.


One thing that also irked be a little about Dr. Muzyka's statement, is that he said that he wanted to preserve the 'artistic integrity of the piece.' I understand what it feels like to want something that you have created/helped create end the way that you want them to, but I have to say that the artistic integrity of Mass Effect 3 fell apart in the ending due to the fact that it strayed so far away from everything else that has happened in the game, in addition to create a couple major plot holes that don't make sense to even some of the most avid players/lore studiers. I mean no offense by this, but I think that if BioWare truly wants to preserve the artistic integrity of the Mass Effect series, they should seriously review the ending and at least try to find ways to close up the plotholes/make the ending more in line with the rest of the game. 


In closing, I would like to discuss the last two paragraphs of his statement. In the second to last paragraph, he sends most of the time discussing how people have become 'destructive' in their criticism and have 'individually attacked members of the team.' I am sorry that people have attacked the team, I truly am, because I know that they hurt how the rest of the fans are viewed, but in all of my time forum-surfing, I have seen very few personal attacks on members of the BioWare team. With this being said, most of the people providing criticism have been civil about their views. If anything, the fans are more likely to start 'attacking' each other as they try to say why their view is 'correct' then they are to attack a member of the BioWare team. If any member of the fanbase is in a minority, it is the people that do what Dr. Muzyka mentioned. However, in his statement it appears as if there are a lot more people that are creating 'attacks' on the BioWare team than there really are.


The final paragraph is one that I find most insulting however. " I urge you to do your own research: play the game, finish it and tell us what you think." --Dr. Muzyka. I am sorry, but I find this to be a rather...distasteful sentence. Everyone that is complaining/providing criticism about the 'ending' of the game, has a) played the game, and finished it. How else would they know about the ending/want to complain about it? Sure, there may be some people that didn't play the game and simply went out on youtube or such and watched the ending, but I don't think those people are going to be going around saying how much they don't like the ending as much as someone who actually played the game. 




After all of this has been typed, I would just like to say that I am not trying to attack Dr. Muzyka personally, nor am I trying to be uncivilized. Instead, I have provided feedback on his statement, in what I am hoping was a civilized manner, so that he or anyone else that reads this, can understand that I feel that as a fan, I have been insulted, if not directly/on purpose, but through word play and probably on accident. I felt like posting this because I would like to see what others have to say about this, and whether or not they can understand some of the reasons why I feel a little offended. 

[Editted]

People today get offended by the smallest thing, its amusing actually. I can' think of any other company that listens to their fans as much as BW, I think this letter demonstrates that very well. Critics are better at reviewing games than fans, fans get outragous fits over everything and obsess over some small part, even the rest of the game is near perfect like ME3. 

Granted the ending is something to be somewhat upset about but some people are just being ridiculous about it.

[Nykara]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

........i swear. bioware cant say ONE WORD without this community being offended. even if the ending was good i bet everyone would still find reasons to get mad about it...

It is unfortunate but this is what seems to happen when you have a lot of people who are passionate about something. There are always a select few who take it too far or who allow their emotions to control their actions. It doesn't help anything though. They need to channel that passion in to something constructive.

I suggest people go and check all of the polls floating around - make sure you vote on them for what you did/didn't like about the ending. Formulate posts about the same thing, ask others for their opinions. It doesn't matter if you think it has all be said say it again and again. The more it is repeated the clearer what is liked and disliked is. Be constructive about it.

Don't stop the theories either - they aren't lost yet.

Respectfully hold the line!
Whatever you do - don't attack Bioware employee's directly it is NOT their fault.

[Faunwea]

Wiggly wrote...

People today get offended by the smallest thing, its amusing actually. I can' think of any other company that listens to their fans as much as BW, I think this letter demonstrates that very well. Critics are better at reviewing games than fans, fans get outragous fits over everything and obsess over some small part, even the rest of the game is near perfect like ME3. 

Granted the ending is something to be somewhat upset about but some people are just being ridiculous about it.

Blizzard listens very well.

[Kataigida]

Wiggly wrote...

People today get offended by the smallest thing, its amusing actually. I can' think of any other company that listens to their fans as much as BW, I think this letter demonstrates that very well. Critics are better at reviewing games than fans, fans get outragous fits over everything and obsess over some small part, even the rest of the game is near perfect like ME3. 

Granted the ending is something to be somewhat upset about but some people are just being ridiculous about it.

Fans and critics go after different things when they 'review' a game though, and that is what I am trying to say.

Also, you cannot say that critics are better at reviewing games in my opinion, because critics have a different viewpoint than someone who is a fan.

Yes, it is true that fans can get into outraguous fits and can be obsessive (see Star Wars fans at some points in time), fans are also the core of the game. They are the ones that make the company money, and are just as likely, if not more likely to provide feedback that would improve the game.

For anyone still reading this forum, I am sorry to say that I have a kind-of long evening class that I have to be getting to, so I won't be one for a few hours, but I will be back online when I can to read any new responses and to respond to anything that I think needs to be responded to.

P.S. Thank you for everyone that is being civil and providing feedback about my topic.

[clarkusdarkus]

whats insulting is that the co-founder doesnt mention all the pre release quotes regarding the game that they didnt go through with which is a big reason as to why im here taken part in the retake, keep ur artistic crap, bottom line is in my eyes the lies that were told before the game came out. simple.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Why are you angry? Is he supposed to kiss your boots and beg forgiveness? The fact that he admitted improvement can be made and that our complaints are valid is a great start.

[BrunoBerg]

Yeah, I don't see anything to be even the slightest upset about this, I don't find it offensive or whatever at all. It just feels good to see them do something about it. I think this is just really nice.

[Cattt]

I think what bothered me most about Dr.Muzyka's statement is that he raves about all the critic reviews. Who is Bioware making these games for? Are they selling the games to the critics or us?

[mw2xboxplayer]

play the game, finish it and tell us what you think. Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole.

This statement basically says "Buy the game and tell your friends to like it. Ignore the endings if you think the rest of the game is 'good'."

This is the only part of Dr. Muzyka's post I have a problem with. It makes his previous words about "appeasing the fans" seem less sincere; and shifts his post's focus to rebuilding ME3's suffering reputation to increase game sales.