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[Tazzmission]

Salis777 wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

or maybe its time fans moved on and accept new ideas without always sticking to what they already know and assume will be similar

That being your opinion, but thats not what is happening.  Execs are dealing with facts, and the facts are that people are unhappy and want more.

again what the pro take back movement needs to do is be very specific in as what they want

going out and trashing other posters for liking it the way it is isnt helping your argument

rammbling on and on everday and opening 50 threads on it isnt helping either by saying omg the me3 ending just killed the trilogy

the truth is and i say this from the heart we as fans are spoiled rotten to the core where you think its ok by insulting the writters and devs also demanding something be free will  not give you what you want

those actions alone do make you sound like entitled brats 

the fact that people tell me not just on this board but others as well that im not a true fan pisses me off

just because i dont share the same ideology as you or the movment dosent make me less of a fan.


this has been why i myself have been pretty vocal regarding fans
i just want to make that very loud and clear

Modifié par Tazzmission, 21 mars 2012 - 10:03 .

[aries1001]

Isn't there a bigger discussion here behind all of this controversy? Namely this one:

Who owns the right to the main characters in a videogame? Bioware or the fans?

And by that I mean this:

Bioware believes that it should have the right to make whatever ending they want to say ME3 because videogames are art and such. Fans believe they have earned a right to see their actions count, they want to see their actions carried out in the consequences during the game as well in the endings. Bioware want to tell stories through the videogame medium, fans want to do whatever they want (it seems?) within reason, of course.

This the salient point now, it seems...

[xXDarkNewDayxXx]

Salis777 wrote...

"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," Barnett said. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

What kind of nonsense is that. No one is forcing Bioware to do anything lol. If JK Rowling blew up Harry Potter and the whole cast in an ending and everyone hated it they'd just say 'wow that was utter crap.' And not buy her books. What a strange analogy.

Over and above that JK Rowling isn't selling a piece of interactive media where it's 'your story, and your decisions matter.' PLUS, they can change the game with a pre-established DLC system which they already planned to do.

All this wishy washy artistic license stuff is just stupid. It's a product, you're paying your writers to write a story, to sell as part of an overall product. Sometimes it goes wrong, change it if it makes business sense.  Cut the artistic fluff - does your Finance Director care about that? lol.  If 100,000 people said wow we really hate the color of tali's costume, they'd just say ok we'll change it (probably?).

So much this ^^ Thanks for writing it better than I could have.

[femio21]

I feel like the ending to Mass Effect 3 was a giant middle finger to anyone who liked the first two

[Turian_punk_75]

The ending(s) sucked IMHO

There should have been 3 endings: Pessemistic (where everyone but the Reapoers die, in essence an utter failure). Sacrifice (where Shepard dies but takes the Reapers with him, and everyone else survives, as to the Mass Relays). And Epic (where Shepard survives, as does everyone else, the Reapers are wiped out, TIM has seven shades of **** beaten out of him in a heroic Paragon/Renegade interrupt fight scene before pushing the 'kill the Reaper's button)

That was the endings many (not all) were expecting, its the endings we should have recieved. It's not too late, it's fixable, personally I can wait if BW decide to fix it. They owe it to us after the 'Not distributing the game to GAME stores in the UK' fiasco which cost me my preordered N7 edition. So instead of being 'sad', do somthing about it...

Suck it up and get to work

[digby69]

another industry figure that just doesn't get it.

sad

[Icemix]

"He added that if the studio does design an alternate ending, neither BioWare nor fans will be satisfied."
I am pretty sure most of the fans will be satisfied with anything that is not the current ending. It can't get any worst than it is.

[Talonius]

Tazzmission wrote...

or maybe its time fans moved on and accept new ideas without always sticking to what they already know and assume will be similar

First, I respect your right to enjoy the current ending.  I don't, just to make clear where we stand.

Second, the fans are moving on.  They're just being vocal about why, and giving Bioware a chance to fix it for them.  You don't want a fix, that's cool.  However, there are those who do.  And if one isn't delivered then we "move on" as you suggest.  Bioware has to make a business decision as to whether or not they want us to move on, or if, possibly, we have a valid point.

Third, regarding a previous post by yourself on the cost of the fix.  I paid $80.00 for Mass Effect 3.  That's $20.00 more than I normally pay, a 33% increase.  Yes, I received the DLC - most of which was worthless and would've been made available in other games for free, in my opinion.  (The robot dog comes to mind.)  In my mind I've already paid for a real ending.  It just hasn't been delivered yet.

Maybe you don't agree with that viewpoint and opinion.  That's what it is, a viewpoint and opinion.  I'm not trying to alter your opinion, I'm trying to allow you to see things our way.  We don't have to agree on the interpretation, but hopefully you'll at least partially understand.

The difference in all this is your significant other leaving you with no notice, or your significant other saying "Let's try marriage counseling."  We're trying to engage Bioware so we can get counseling, or answers.  Some are doing so destructively; that's probably 1% of us.  (Same thing happened with the Occupy movement.  Some folks just like to start trouble.)  However, painting all of us with the same brush does us as much injustice as the claim that "all ME3 fans hate the ending."  Neither is true, neither is absolute.

Thank you.

[Tazzmission]

Icemix wrote...

"He added that if the studio does design an alternate ending, neither BioWare nor fans will be satisfied."
I am pretty sure most of the fans will be satisfied with anything that is not the current ending. It can't get any worst than it is.

well the truth is everyone will not be happy


me personally i dont care if they change it or not i stand by how i feel

and i look at the ending thing from a prospective of if they didnt have to do budget cuts like reports have stated maybe this would have been a different outcome


theres no reason to throw a fit about that because cuts do in fact happen

[daftPirate]

Salis777 wrote...

Another major point to remember is, re-writing a book and printing 100,000 copies is a huge endevour.  Same with changing a movie.  Issuing additional content for game with a PRE-EXISTING DLC system, is cake.  Completely different situations. 

And yeah you're never going to unsee that first ending, but at least there'd be a point to play the damned series again lol.

Aye, printing a new edition of a book is a big undertaking, but 1)It's something that's done, anyway. If the book is still out, more copies are being printed and 2)The author need not be involved outside of simply changing their story. The rest is just business and industry taking over. Its a little unfair to say the DLC system makes things cake. Sure, they have it easier than other media forms, but that's still a lot of work, from a whole team. The main thing, though, is that whatever great ideas they previously had for DLC are now shelved/sidelined as they work on a new ending/ending addon(and considering its DLC, odds are it'll be an ending addon).

Good thing is, yes, more people will be buying/playing the game (again, where it applies). The risk is still there, though, that fans won't approve. I hope they do, they've worked hard to get it.

[slyborg]

I know video game developers may want their work considered art, but it isn't. It is a product. They aren't creating the game for themselves, they are selling it to other people.

Most traditional artists (who don't work on commissions) make art to express themselves.They are allowed to have artistic expression because no one has expectations of them. They can change styles and experiment, because no one is paying them to create it.

Now an artist who works on a commission loses some of that artistic expression because they are creating something for someone else. The first thing I learned in design school was that you have to take your ego out of your work. You have to make what THEY (the consumer or customer) want, not what YOU want. If someone is paying you, you have to make sure your artistic vision fits with what they expect from you.

[Justin2k]

Yeah but Bioshock had a good ending

[Salis777]

Tazzmission wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

or maybe its time fans moved on and accept new ideas without always sticking to what they already know and assume will be similar

That being your opinion, but thats not what is happening.  Execs are dealing with facts, and the facts are that people are unhappy and want more.

again what the pro take back movement needs to do is be very specific in as what they want

going out and trashing other posters for liking it the way it is isnt helping your argument

rammbling on and on everday and opening 50 threads on it isnt helping either by saying omg the me3 ending just killed the trilogy

the truth is and i say this from the heart we as fans are spoiled rotten to the core where you think its ok by insulting the writters and devs also demanding something be free will  not give you what you want

those actions alone do make you sound like entitled brats 

the fact that people tell me not just on this board but others as well that im not a true fan pisses me off

just because i dont share the same ideology as you or the movment dosent make me less of a fan.


this has been why i myself have been pretty vocal regarding fans
i just want to make that very loud and clear

It's not 'my argument,'  I'm not taking sides.  I'm simply pointing out from a business point of view that you're all entitled to your opinion.  And they'll take those opinions and make a financial decision based on analysis.  The writers and devs are big boys, they can take feedback, hopefully.  It's part of being a professional.

I don't see how anyone is being a brat by saying they dislike a product, and if people are insulting you ignore them.  Some people use these situations to bait people, why bother allowing them?

[mcsupersport]

Fact 1) Bioware gets to choose how to end their game as much as any other company can or writer.
Fact 2) Bioware is in the BUSINESS of making a product(Games) and selling them to customers.
Fact 3) Their artistic license has ticked a large group of their consumers off.
Fact 4) There is no way to force a company to do something they don't want to do as long as they didn't break any laws.
Fact 5) Companies will change things to keep their customer base happy, that way they stay in business and profitable.

So no we can't MAKE Bioware change a darn thing about ME3, but it is coming to their attention that it will be in their best future interest to do so anyway. Because many like me, will NOT buy any DLC products or maybe even future titles, if they don't thus they lose customers, hence money.

[Talonius]

Tazzmission wrote...

again what the pro take back movement needs to do is be very specific in as what they want

They are.  See http://social.biowar...ndex/10098213.  Any attempt to argue that fans are not being specific when they condemn the current endings is false.

going out and trashing other posters for liking it the way it is isnt helping your argument

Can we count the number of those posts compared to the constructive criticism posts please?  You're painting with a broad brush, and that broad brush doesn't hold up to the facts.

rammbling on and on everday and opening 50 threads on it isnt helping either by saying omg the me3 ending just killed the trilogy

You've repeated your first point here, and as a point of fact, rambling on it everyday does help.  It shows Bioware that the individuals in questions have a vested interest in making change happen, that it's not an isolated incident represented by a very small minority, and that the complaining will continue to grow in volume as more and more players also become dissatisfied.  Assuming a linear curve (meaning the percentage of dissatisfied ME3 players will remain constant as compared to the number of units sold) that volume will become very loud.

the truth is and i say this from the heart we as fans are spoiled rotten to the core where you think its ok by insulting the writters and devs also demanding something be free will  not give you what you want

Insulting the writers and developers isn't cool, but I ask you again to balance out the number of folks who do such things against the number who are attempting to constructively engage in dialogue.  Again, you've brought out the
broad brush.

This next is my opinion:  I'm not spoiled.  I pay Bioware to entertain me, and the ending to the game did not do so.  I am demanding - as a paid consumer of every one of their products - that they produce something better.  This happens every day in the real world.  Plumber messes up my pipe, I demand he fixes it.  Carpenter doesn't fix my deck properly, he has to fix it.  In my opinioni, the ending to ME3 was not sufficient and not up to par.  It must be rectified.  If they don't, they stand a very real, very large chance of losing me - and the remaining who object to the ending - as a customer.

That's not being spoiled.  That's expecting what you pay for.

those actions alone do make you sound like entitled brats 

Please see the definition of entitled before you use it again.  I have to admit, the usage of that word in any situation really ticks me off, but I guarantee you it doesn't apply here.

the fact that people tell me not just on this board but others as well that im not a true fan pisses me off

just because i dont share the same ideology as you or the movment dosent make me less of a fan.

No one else can decide whether you're a fan or not.  No one else can tell you to enjoy the ending of the game or not.  Wait.  That means that your criticism of our displeasure is not allowed.  Or, it's okay for you to tell us that the ending is fine but not okay for us to tell you that the ending is not fine?  It's one way or the other - please make up your mind.

this has been why i myself have been pretty vocal regarding fans
i just want to make that very loud and clear

You're very loud, but not very clear.  You use strawman arguments and stereotype your opposition in order to bolster your position.  You're not very effective, but I'm still trying to be constructive with you.

[exskeeny]

Tazzmission wrote...

BigNastE wrote...

Everone who doesn't agree with the ending haters misses "the point". You guys have the right to free speech, but you don't have the right to insult people that don't agree with you and vice versa. If you like the ending that's great. If you didn't then just post constructive feedback like most of the good people have.

both sides insult eachother it isnt just the we like ending crowd

we try to have a civil convorsation until a pro take back me poster comes in and hijacks it

they even spam the hell out of areas of the furms where it dosent belong

you ask me there looking for a fight

my attitude is if your gona pick a fight you better be ready to get hit and hit hard because they started the situation not us

I've not seen any endings yet so I can't comment on those, but you're right. even on ME/DA posts on Facebook, maybe about new hoodie stocks, all you see is "give us a new ending" crap. It's kind of becoming the new "arrow to the knee joke"

[cotheer]

Someone got scared that the same thing could happen to them?
And he should be.

Screw over your customers/fans, and suffer the consequences.

[Tazzmission]

exskeeny wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

BigNastE wrote...

Everone who doesn't agree with the ending haters misses "the point". You guys have the right to free speech, but you don't have the right to insult people that don't agree with you and vice versa. If you like the ending that's great. If you didn't then just post constructive feedback like most of the good people have.

both sides insult eachother it isnt just the we like ending crowd

we try to have a civil convorsation until a pro take back me poster comes in and hijacks it

they even spam the hell out of areas of the furms where it dosent belong

you ask me there looking for a fight

my attitude is if your gona pick a fight you better be ready to get hit and hit hard because they started the situation not us

I've not seen any endings yet so I can't comment on those, but you're right. even on ME/DA posts on Facebook, maybe about new hoodie stocks, all you see is "give us a new ending" crap. It's kind of becoming the new "arrow to the knee joke"

heh i didnt think of it like that


i can see it now

i use to be a mass effect fan until i took the ending to the knee

[daftPirate]

I think one thing can be agreed on by any side, that was mentioned in the Forbes article on Dr. Muzyka's blog: Profit seeking is killing video games.

Whether at the hands of companies/developers or fans or both remains to be seen.

[Salis777]

the meme you are looking for is Marauder Shields

[IST]

digby69 wrote...

another industry figure that just doesn't get it.

sad

I gotta say, I love Ken's games.. but he is a little b**** for real. 

[Blc949]

Fidget6 wrote...

 

"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," Barnett said. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

THIS. THIS. So much THIS. It's what I've been saying. I may not have been thrilled with the ending either, but it's Bioware's game, NOT yours.

And its my money, not their's.  They've made a good chunk of my money become their's, but they still need to work if they want my future money to be their's. 

From an artistic stand point, I hope this doesn't set a precident where companies make crappy endings then charge to fix them.  I am so close to Mass Effect though I'm willing to change my opinion this one time.  I've never felt so outraged over a game ending before.  I don't think I've ever felt annoyed even.  The ending was just bad on so many levels.  They've managed to change a fans opinion that in general customers shouldn't have a say in a games ending.  Well this one was so bad it changed a 29 year old who's gamed since before he could read's opinion.

I don't expect to feel all sunshine and lollipops after everything.  It's mainly depending how well this is executed.  I will say this announcement has taken me out of "I'm never purchasing another bioware product or add-on again" mode.  

[neilthecellist]

If the DLC isn't free, I'm returning my game.

[Fidget6]

neilthecellist wrote...

If the DLC isn't free, I'm returning my game.

You might as well return it now though, it ain't gonna happen. And to expect it to is frankly ridiculous. Game developers need money, and a DLC would cost them a lot of it, so they can't just crap one out and give it out for free.