205 réponses à ce sujet

[WeWant]

mauro2222 wrote...

Thus, for it's designers to refer to it as a work of art and defend their position is rather ironic, considering the fact that it was designed to be sold and consumed."

I love that comment.

So music is not art either.

[MedhiaNox]

I do not consider video games art - I consider them entertainment.

Some entertainment may be considered art - but that requires an agreement between both peers and audience concerning the value of the piece.

In this case - a vocal group (and I dare say majority) - has stated plainly that they consider Mass Effect 3 short of "art" do to its ending.

If the creators of Mass Effect believe the game is "art" - then they should take the high ground and stick with it - bottom line be damned.

IF - however - they concede that video games are an industry wherein art "can" be made, they might - in their search for creating art - decide to take their audience's opinion into account.

I would state that - unlike so many failed painters and writers and musicians and actors - they should be damned grateful for such a forgiving audience who "only" wants an altered ending.

Real artists are not forgiven so easily.

[xsdob]

After seeing you guys **** about bioshocks creator not being a hold the line drone, I can now without a single doubt in my mind question whether this movement has gotten out of hand, and people are turning into a bunch of hard line fox news like echo chamber circle jerk self congratulation fest, in which everyone else who doesn't subscribe to your exact doctrine is evil and wrong and an idiot or a threat.

My point is that yes, the endings suck. Yes, you can try and change it. No, acting like a bunch of snooty children gossiping about how dumb everyone else is is not okay, it just reflects poorly on everyone involved here.

Also, bioshock and systemshock were awesome games, and just because they weren't RPG's doesn't disqualify them from being such, grow up.

Modifié par xsdob, 21 mars 2012 - 11:49 .

[evil-pineapples]

I think what we're experiencing here is what's called a "broken base." There's no such thing as a "true BioWare fan" because there are now two completely different schools of thought about what it means to be a quality BioWare game.

[Rockworm503]

CuddilyEvil93 wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Can some explain to me who this guy is so i can find a reason to care about what he thinks about ME3's ending?

He's the guy who had Bioshock Infinite's female lead designed with a lowcut top with her breast on prominant display. All pictures of her were marketed with her breast front and center. Little of the game's story information was released. Then he complained that fans focused more on her breast than the game's story.

and you know this how?

[Louis deGuerre]

I gotta admire Bioware for throwing gasoline on the flames with the tone of that PR statement.
Well played

I loved ME3 by the way but yeah, that ending was mediocre, and it looked even worse due to the quality of their product. Like a keyed Ferrari, Damn shame.

You make a game about choices, you advertize that your choices matter, and then you give us one multicoloured ending on which 5 years of choices have ZERO effect and you expect people to appreciate your work of art ? Hilarious !

[NukeZen]

mauro2222 wrote...

"The "games are art" argument is not a get out of jail free card for developers. There is a distinct difference between a painting by Pablo Picasso and Mass Effect 3, or any other video game for that matter, because Picasso creates one painting and displays that painting. It is an expression of his own artistic creativity. Perhaps, someone who likes the painting will buy it because he admires it. Mass Effect 3 was never created with the intention of being an outlet for Bioware's creativity, it was created with the intention of entertaining it's customers and generating sales. Thus, for it's designers to refer to it as a work of art and defend their position is rather ironic, considering the fact that it was designed to be sold and consumed."

I love that comment.

The fact that art is art only if it is free and not for selling and make money is ridicolus. This is a distinction that simply dont exist.

[Salis777]

xsdob wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," Barnett said. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

What kind of nonsense is that. No one is forcing Bioware to do anything lol. If JK Rowling blew up Harry Potter and the whole cast in an ending and everyone hated it they'd just say 'wow that was utter crap.' And not buy her books. What a strange analogy.

Over and above that JK Rowling isn't selling a piece of interactive media where it's 'your story, and your decisions matter.' PLUS, they can change the game with a pre-established DLC system which they already planned to do.

All this wishy washy artistic license stuff is just stupid. It's a product, you're paying your writers to write a story, to sell as part of an overall product. Sometimes it goes wrong, change it if it makes business sense.  Cut the artistic fluff - does your Finance Director care about that? lol.  If 100,000 people said wow we really hate the color of tali's costume, they'd just say ok we'll change it (probably?).

Have you not been coming here the past week? Almost every thrread is filled with "make bioware change the ending" post. Besides, if you can convince the supreme court that their decisison to give vidoe games the same protection that all other art-media has was wrong because it's an interactive media, than your welcome to denounce vidoe games as art.

Just expect no good games to come from that decision, with citizen induced censorship or blacklisting no longer being prohibited.

Again, no one is forcing Bioware to do anything and they have all the legal protection given under law.  No one is filing a lawsuit saying they broke xyz.  Customers are telling them they don't like what they made, for various reasons which have a good degree of validity.

Art has nothing to do with this.  If some writer came into a board meeting about this and said he wanted no changes because of his artistic license, after EA had projected losing $x million over this, they'd slap him around the head and tell him to get back to work.  Or just replace him.

And to say no good games can come from customers telling companies what they want constructively is completely illogical.  It's how every single business on this planet does business.  This might be a loud and vocal way for them to go about it, but its for everyones benefit that this communication occurs.

[UntamedZer0]

xsdob wrote...

After seeing you guys **** about bioshocks creator not being a hold the line drone, I can no without a single doubt in my mind question whether this movement has gotten out of hand, and people are turning into a bunch of hard line fox news like echo chamber circle jerk self congratulation fest, in which everyone else who doesn't subscribe to your exact doctrine is evil and wrong and an idiot or a threat.

My point is that yes, the endings suck. Yes, you can try and change it. No, acting like a bunch of snooty children gossiping about how dumb everyone else is is not okay, it just reflects poorly on everyone involved here.

Also, bioshock and systemshock were awesome games, and just because they weren't RPG's doesn't disqualify them from being such, grow up.

Quite frankly I didn't think Bioshock was very good. Not good enough to even bother with the sequal. Had a good concept plagued with what I felt was crappy game play.

But thats my opinion. I would also like to point out calling everyone snooty and telling them to "grow up" is doing exactly what you are griping about in your post.

[mauro2222]

WeWant wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Thus, for it's designers to refer to it as a work of art and defend their position is rather ironic, considering the fact that it was designed to be sold and consumed."

I love that comment.

So music is not art either.

Depends on the so called "artist"... music can become art or enterteinment depending of the artist and how he views his music. Music is not every sound with melody or a sing that goes with a sounds.

Modifié par mauro2222, 21 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[cipher86]

People wanted answers, the ending provided a ton of questions and blew a hole in the first game. If Bioware was even a shadow of what they used to be the ending would've been FINE. They don't need to overhaul or retcon, they just had to explain how it WORKS.

Modifié par cipher86, 21 mars 2012 - 11:57 .

[xsdob]

Salis777 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," Barnett said. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

What kind of nonsense is that. No one is forcing Bioware to do anything lol. If JK Rowling blew up Harry Potter and the whole cast in an ending and everyone hated it they'd just say 'wow that was utter crap.' And not buy her books. What a strange analogy.

Over and above that JK Rowling isn't selling a piece of interactive media where it's 'your story, and your decisions matter.' PLUS, they can change the game with a pre-established DLC system which they already planned to do.

All this wishy washy artistic license stuff is just stupid. It's a product, you're paying your writers to write a story, to sell as part of an overall product. Sometimes it goes wrong, change it if it makes business sense.  Cut the artistic fluff - does your Finance Director care about that? lol.  If 100,000 people said wow we really hate the color of tali's costume, they'd just say ok we'll change it (probably?).

Have you not been coming here the past week? Almost every thrread is filled with "make bioware change the ending" post. Besides, if you can convince the supreme court that their decisison to give vidoe games the same protection that all other art-media has was wrong because it's an interactive media, than your welcome to denounce vidoe games as art.

Just expect no good games to come from that decision, with citizen induced censorship or blacklisting no longer being prohibited.

Again, no one is forcing Bioware to do anything and they have all the legal protection given under law.  No one is filing a lawsuit saying they broke xyz.  Customers are telling them they don't like what they made, for various reasons which have a good degree of validity.

Art has nothing to do with this.  If some writer came into a board meeting about this and said he wanted no changes because of his artistic license, after EA had projected losing $x million over this, they'd slap him around the head and tell him to get back to work.  Or just replace him.

And to say no good games can come from customers telling companies what they want constructively is completely illogical.  It's how every single business on this planet does business.  This might be a loud and vocal way for them to go about it, but its for everyones benefit that this communication occurs.

People filing FTC complaints, boycotting products, returning gmaes en-masse, canceling origin accounts, bombing the beter buisness buraeu to give them an F rating, calling for Casey Hudson to be fired, calling for everyone who works as reporters for video games to be fired, and waging as one person called it "succesful economic warfare" against bioware pretty much qualifies as forcing them to cave, unless you consider these to be trivial.

[mauro2222]

kamikazen wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

"The "games are art" argument is not a get out of jail free card for developers. There is a distinct difference between a painting by Pablo Picasso and Mass Effect 3, or any other video game for that matter, because Picasso creates one painting and displays that painting. It is an expression of his own artistic creativity. Perhaps, someone who likes the painting will buy it because he admires it. Mass Effect 3 was never created with the intention of being an outlet for Bioware's creativity, it was created with the intention of entertaining it's customers and generating sales. Thus, for it's designers to refer to it as a work of art and defend their position is rather ironic, considering the fact that it was designed to be sold and consumed."

I love that comment.

The fact that art is art only if it is free and not for selling and make money is ridicolus. This is a distinction that simply dont exist.

It doesn't say free.... damn people think that if you are allowed to see, touch, taste, or feel something without paying it must be free in a sense of money?

[cipher86]

xsdob wrote...

People filing FTC complaints, boycotting products, returning gmaes en-masse, canceling origin accounts, bombing the beter buisness buraeu to give them an F rating

These are justified, the personal attacks are not.

[PadawanMage71]

Did Mr. Levine even play the game? Or is he getting ready for possible fan issues when Bioshock: Infinite comes out? Maybe *it's* ending is nothing to write home about...?

[xsdob]

cipher86 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

People filing FTC complaints, boycotting products, returning gmaes en-masse, canceling origin accounts, bombing the beter buisness buraeu to give them an F rating

These are justified, the personal attacks are not.

These are justified? Really?

Modifié par xsdob, 22 mars 2012 - 12:00 .

[cipher86]

xsdob wrote...

These are justified? Really?

Bioware/EA built a very large hype machine with Mass Effect 3, if people feel they didn't receive what they felt they were promised they have every right to seek recourse through those means.

[xsdob]

cipher86 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

These are justified? Really?

Bioware/EA built a very large hype machine with Mass Effect 3, if people feel they didn't receive what they felt they were promised they have every right to seek recourse through those means.

So your in favor of fan perpetrated libel? Cause thats what review bombing the BBB probably is. 

Modifié par xsdob, 22 mars 2012 - 12:02 .

[Mikey_205]

Make the product to your vision, but don't tell me it is something it isn't with false hype and expect me to be happy.

[cipher86]

xsdob wrote...
So your in favor of fan perpetrated libel? Cause thats what review bombing the BBB probably is. 

If they bought the game, yes.

Modifié par cipher86, 22 mars 2012 - 12:13 .

[NukeZen]

Dont know, maby i dont get the point.
The movment is asking somthing, to change what he dont like about a part of a game, a protuct, an artwork or whatever it is. Ok.
The movment, or a large part of it, is asking for this change to be free, for a lot of reason. Ok.
The movment, or a large part of it, by what i can read at last in this forum, is menacing bioware and EA to boycott them if they dont do what the movement want. Ok.

Are you calling this something consttuctive? Are you telling me this is not a try to force someone to do something? And who the hell are you to decide this kind of things whitout my opinion and rights? Am i not a customer? And by me, i mean every one how like this game as it is.

[WeWant]

mauro2222 wrote...

WeWant wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Thus, for it's designers to refer to it as a work of art and defend their position is rather ironic, considering the fact that it was designed to be sold and consumed."

I love that comment.

So music is not art either.

Depends on the so called "artist"... music can become art or enterteinment depending of the artist and how he views his music. Music is not every sound with melody or a sing that goes with a sounds.

Good or bad, it's still a "product meant to be consumed" like you said.

[lumen11]

mauro2222 wrote...

WeWant wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Thus, for it's designers to refer to it as a work of art and defend their position is rather ironic, considering the fact that it was designed to be sold and consumed."

I love that comment.

So music is not art either.

Depends on the so called "artist"... music can become art or enterteinment depending of the artist and how he views his music. Music is not every sound with melody or a sing that goes with a sounds.

Seriously dude. Art has to be sold as well.

The irony is that art in the purest sense is also not intended to please the audience. It is intended to convey the artist's vision of aesthetics among other things. You need only one person to like it it sell it, but strictly speaking no one has to like it.

'Mass consumer art' like books and films aren't pure art because they need to achieve distincly commercial goals. In other words, enough people have to like it to make a profit.  However, what is artistic about books and films has nothing to do with pleasing audiences. Artistry is purely about the vision of the creator.

The same can apply to computer games. There is artistry to computer games; more so with the best of them.

[NOD-INFORMER37]

You know whats ironic, the only forums I go to is this one and IrrationalGames and the first time I went to look up new Bioshock(Infinite) info this week the two somehow merged.

Completely off topic I know, just sayin' xD

[Salis777]

xsdob wrote...

People filing FTC complaints, boycotting products, returning gmaes en-masse, canceling origin accounts, bombing the beter buisness buraeu to give them an F rating, calling for Casey Hudson to be fired, calling for everyone who works as reporters for video games to be fired, and waging as one person called it "succesful economic warfare" against bioware pretty much qualifies as forcing them to cave, unless you consider these to be trivial.

Look, 2% of any side of any argument is going to be raving lunatics.  Ignore that.  As for the reaction to this I'd say it's been level headed in the majority and BW are getting useful info.  And if you think EA will cave if the numbers don't add you're crazy.  They have a pretty solid history of utterly destroying franchises for cash.  Business.

As for the reaction to this it's nothing compared to some of the royal debacles out there.  Remember Toyota?  Bioware should count themselves lucky in some ways.

Modifié par Salis777, 22 mars 2012 - 12:17 .