239 réponses à ce sujet

[magor1988x]

Almostfaceman wrote...

shoshbear wrote...

Maybe it's because we're lacking leadership? One or two charismatic and decisive voice(s) for people to focus on to calm them down might be the answer but then again we didn't need such a thing in the beginning. It's so upsetting that we are undoing our own substantial progress in a matter of hours.

That being said, I will continue to Hold The Line.

We're not undoing anything, several moderators have responded that they see the rude fringe for what it is. Let's not give in to a feeling that we're defeating ourselves, most are still being polite and are giving Bioware honest discussion and feedback.

Not yet we aren't. As John pointed out what doomed the DA2 criticism was the personal attacks & the debate becoming personal. We haven't yet, and that is the point of my post. If we continue down this path BW can easily decide its not worth it anymore & move on, just like they did with DA2.

[cmj428]

I completely agree people have the right to their opinions and the right to complain but personal attacks again other BSN members and members of the BioWare team have no place on the these forums.

[DragonRageGT]

Hmm... I wonder what Zero Tolerance means now... it may be different in my language. Maybe its 0,5 tolerance? heh

Meanwhile, We Hold The Line!

[Aramina]

We won't get anywhere if we don't remain civil. Example: You're debating politics with someone. Let's say you're a Democrat and they're a Rebublican. (Sorry those of you not in the USA, this is the politics I'm most familiar with). There will of course be things that both parties just fundamentally disagree with. Does this mean you can't still have an engaging and constructive debate?Not at all! Will you be able to get them to, if not agree with you, at least sympathize with your position and respect it? It's very possible! So how can this be done?

The best wayto get your point across in a way that it will be respected is to avoidsaying things that will put the other side on the defensive. When people feel that they are being attacked, whatever point you were trying to make will be lost. They will most likely hunker down, protect themselves, and ignore everything else you may have to say. Even people who are experienced in debating will lose any respect they may have for you. Personal attacks and the like prove that you are not able to keep your own emotions in check, and if this is the case, how can we trust that what you are saying isn't just a heat-of-the-moment rant? This goes both ways in any debate,and no matter how much you may feel like you're being attacked, it is so important to keep from doing the same! The other person may indeed be attacking you, or their point may have just been poorly worded. You'll never know which it is if you immediately go on the offensive.

Obviously it is much harder to keep emotions in check in real time conversations, and with the boards moving so quickly here, some people may feel that they don't have a lot of time to consider their responses. It may end up
being "obsolete" by the time they get their thoughts together. However, this is still a forum, where our thoughts can be considered, rewritten, and edited before being "spoken" to someone else. Simple solution to this? The good ol' Golden Rule!

If what you just said/typed would offend you if it was someone else saying this about you, don't post it! Reword it
into something that can still get your point across without offending the camp you are trying to reach!

Modifié par Aramina, 21 mars 2012 - 10:58 .

[MeepZero]

We broke @JessicaMerizan, shes done discussing ME3 on her personal feed. This is a COLOSSAL problem guys. We are burning bridges and being a bunch of rude jerks when we should be being civil and giving good feedback. Yes we are all tired of not hearing anything, but at the very least lets try to give Bioware some breathing room to fix what is going on here.

[pjotroos]

John Epler wrote...

For what it's worth, we understand that the hostility and vitriol are from an (extremely) vocal minority. As with any such situation, there are those who take it too far, but it isn't reflective of the group as a whole.

Well, it's nice to hear you still see things this way from your side of the trenches. I'm still fuming over the betrayal of the franchise that happens at the end of the game, and obviously where things go from here depends entirely on what's shown on PAX, but either way, I don't envy any of the forum staff for having to sit through it all, and I apprieciate the balanced and undestanding atttitude you're showing. There's many ways to disagree, glad we're sticking to the polite one for the most part.

[MeganHunter]

Well said OP. I do think it's true that Bioware is always going to make the movement out to be angrier and worse than we happen to be, because it's PR and they can't shoot themselves in the foot. Any statement we get from them or EA is going to talk about that angle, the same way politicians talk about the "far right" or the "looney left." And that's always going to make the measured and reserved among us pretty ticked.

But at heart, I'm pretty sure they know how we feel and why it's valid. Bioware's always had a pretty solid rep among their community, which is why we give their admittedly great stories perhaps a bit more idoltry than they deserve. It's the Joss Whedon thing. But it's not a bad thing, and it does feel like they've always been there for us before.

[GhengisTom]

John Epler wrote...

For what it's worth, we understand that the hostility and vitriol are from an (extremely) vocal minority. As with any such situation, there are those who take it too far, but it isn't reflective of the group as a whole.

Thankfully you guys at BW are willing to listen to the people who are offering constructive criticisms and that you realize the people being hostile and throwing out attacks are the minority. Other companies would most certainly just blow the fans off.

Hopefully I can find the time to write a constructive letter.

[bmwcrazy]

Quietness wrote...

Yup, and if people dont calm down we're going to become the villains once again.

Again? You mean we were? 

[Vikali]

bmwcrazy wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Yup, and if people dont calm down we're going to become the villains once again.

Again? You mean we were? 

Retake people have been recently when the less controlled, venom spitting, tunnel visioned people signed on.

[Militarized]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Militarized wrote...

There is an entire stickied post of us being constructive in our criticism. Then they come out again today and say "please give us your feedback" again? I am calm but I rolled my eyes, we've already given pages and pages and pages and pppaaaggeess of thoughtful critique and analysis.

People are, and I feel like I have to explain this alot, venting out the build up of 2 weeks of silence after being told again pretty much the same PR talk.

If we've already given our feedback (as you and I clearly have) then we can do our part in guiding others to do that very thing. There are new people coming in all the time with negative feelings about the ending. We can do something about that. If you're still going to wait for a better ending and not give up (which is perfectly within your rights) then I suggest we keep responding to people asking questions, direct people to polls and the feedback threads and continue to encourage feedback that will ultimately get us what both parties can live with.

In my opinion, this was a bit more than "we are listening" it did take that step into "we are doing something about it" which is a step in the right direction.

Fair point, I've been here since I finished the game some 2 weeks or so ago and I guess I'm getting a bit cynical/fed up. I will continue posting like I have been though and point new people in the right direction. No reason not to remain civil, at least until April.  

[TheRevanchist]

John Epler wrote...

Aerevane wrote...

VegaMendoza wrote...

If you want to see an honest response, look at Bethesda's response to FO3...

Which took them months to make and was not the first in their list of priority. There's no 'enemy' in this scenario, old boy. This isn't a battle and nor ought it be. It's a consumer / developer conflict that we'll see how will resort by petitioning and by being expressive in our grievances with the product.

Please, be more thoughtful about the issue and give up on idle anger - fuel that rather with the intent to express what you want them to do, rather than shouting about how '****' they are.

No, this is not correct. Only by polarizing and forcing the issue, can we achieve something. They're trying to pacify us, but we should not be pacified. The moment they succeed in pacifying us, is the moment this movement will die and be blown apart like dust in the wind.

Here's the thing. I can't speak for the ME team, but I can tell you that the criticism we were the most receptive to following DA2's launch was the criticism presented in a constructive fashion. Soon as the personal insults and vitriol comes out, we're far more likely to ignore what's being said. Tone matters. 

We're not trying to pacify anyone, but we -are- asking that people remain respectful, towards each other and towards the developers. This is not new. This is something we've asked for since the beginning. Those who aren't able to follow the rules will not be participating in the forums anymore. That goes for both sides of the argument.

Then how about this Mr Epler...I am not sure what your job is exactly but I'm sure you can get the message up the chain somehow. 

I can't speak for everyone, but I feel we want to know why we were clearly lied to in the pre- release marketing campaign. We were given exactly what your company said they would not give us. The exact opposite of what we were promised. You (as in Bioware) said very clearly...we will not have an A,B,C type ending...as that would be unfitting to the series....yet...

 

Seriously...what happened here? Where are the "16 wildly different endings that depend on your choices thoughout the series" that we were promised? What happend to our choices meaning something? Why...in the end...does the entire ending to over 100 hours of gameplay come down to 3 things that are 95% the same? Despite the fact that our choices could be so vastly different from one player to the next, yet we all have the exact same ending...regardless of how things play out. All of our choices have been reduced to a Math score that determines the remaining 5% for the "variety" in the endings.

Getting "Closure" is only a small part of our concerns, we want more than just closure on the ending we have. We feel this ending as a whole is unfitting and simply does not work. The mere fact the "Star Child" exsists makes ME1 pointless...as Soverigns attempt to take the Citadel is rendered totaly moronic...when this thing can just use "Space Magic" to open it itself. Shepard is totaly out of character with everything they have ever been during this entire franchise. Why on earth would he accept Saren or The Illusive Man's perspectives? Why would he not show the AI why his logic is so OBVIOUSLY wrong? Why does your own companies artbook tell us The Crucible does something so VASTLY different from what it actually does? "it evokes a weapon that resembles the Trinity Bomb mixed with a NASA space probe." Why is there so much inconsistency with what we were promised and told...and what we actually got? Like I said I can't speak for everyone...but Ray telling us "We will clarify this ending" is not really what we are asking for. We don't want it clarified....we are saying it's simply broken...it defys everything that Mass Effect has established for 5 years. You listened to us when we told you how broken ME: Deception was...and you outright told us that you would fix it. Now we are trying to explain why THIS is broken...and instead the answer we get basiclly boils down to "we will explain it to you so you understand."

Shouldn't this have already been in the game? shouldn't the context of why you seem to think this ending is great already be there? I will not say for sure...but it SEEMS we were sold an unfinished product at full price. A product that...for all intents and purposes...contradicts your entire marketing campaign, as well as logcial consistency with the rest of the franchise. The ending...to me at least...is not the quality I have always gotten from Bioware...the first 95% of the game is what I expect from Bioware, which is pure brillience in every possible way...but those last 15 minutes seem like they were writen by someone else with no knowledge of ME lore or writing skill period...again like ME: Deception, which you actually promised to fix, and not just clarify the horribleness so we understand why it's there. There are other reasons I am disapointed with this game of course, not everything within that first 95% is solid gold. Things like the broken Face Importer, Tali's lazy face reveal, lack luster RPG elements, Liara getting the only "mature" romance scene, things like that to name a few. But aside from the Face Importer ( which is totaly crap btw) I can easily dismiss these things...because they do not basiclly spit in the face of 5 years of dramatic build up regarding character development and player choice.

The fans collective knowledge of the Mass Effect universe (the ME Wiki that you have admitted to useing before) is basiclly the embodiement of WHY this ending is broken, which is pre-established facts that says things can't be the way they are presented without basiclly making everything before this game not matter. Again I reconize there ARE people who enjoy this ending, but this is...I feel...the Majority (yes majority) opinion on why this ending is just so terrible. This game was bar none Game of the Year until we reach the ending. The destination is just as importent as the journey to get there.

I am sorry for this very long post...and it's probably in the wrong place. But your the only Dev that really seems to be paying attention...or at least...making your presence known to us.

Fight for the Lost Endings... Hold the Line.

[MintyCool]

BREAKING!

Retake Mass Effect is falling apart: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213

[Vasparian]

MintyCool wrote...


BREAKING!

Retake Mass Effect is falling apart: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213

When you decided to post this and use the wording you did.. Did you think

Hey.. I can be a dirty troll today. it will be fun.

[SaladinDheonqar]

MintyCool wrote...


BREAKING!

Retake Mass Effect is falling apart: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213

That's just one guy's opinion. It's not over until Bioware says it's over, or we get what we were promised in the first place.

[d00ke44]

This Threads just disappear way too fast on pages no one sees them...

[DentedHalo]

John Epler wrote...

For what it's worth, we understand that the hostility and vitriol are from an (extremely) vocal minority. As with any such situation, there are those who take it too far, but it isn't reflective of the group as a whole.

I am personally happy to have that acknowledged although it doesn’t say good things that you’ve had to make 3 subsequent posts about people being disrespectful  :S
 
Todays comments from the company’s founder should really have been a good thing but I think the problem is that its pretty much just the same as we have already heard... I cant say I want outright grovelling or anything melodramatic like that but something a little more conciliatory than simply “we’re listening”. Neither I nor the vast majority of people here think anyone at Bioware is evil or deliberately tried to upset people with the ending but, the same was true of Bethesda and I watched a video of one of their devs today saying flat out that they had miscalculated when they developed the ending to Fallout 3 and I think something like that would have made a lot of people feel better.
 
On top of that, quoting the reviews really was stabbing a raw nerve given the often despicable comments that have been made by some of the highest profile gaming websites... that’s not to say that the information he quoted was wrong or even that the responses were his fault but, quoting it whilst essentially repeating what had been said before was difficult to swallow...
 
But, most of all, I would have liked to have seen him acknowledge that the voices against the endings are not a minority or just the most hardcore or ardent fans... its not my place to decide on the motivation behind the words he chose but, again, as others have used such comments to deride those who wish to have the ending changed, comments that should have been a good thing seem to have ignited fury in those who are more included toward inappropriate behaviour.
 
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not attempting to defend such behaviour but, given that all statements so far have noted that they would like to hear our feedback, I feel that this is something that needs to be said.

[Ampmaster]

I'm tired of the BS and games, the PR double speak and general gamesmanship evident in the whole mess of this. I feel like a clear statement shouldn't be that hard to issue. While I appreciate Dr. M's addressing the lot of us directly instead of going through the big news outlets it did indeed feel like more of the same, smoke, mirrors and ultimately a big run around. That said none of that is an excuse to start acting like a bunch of idiots. Some of you have even seemed to catch the idea that Bioware is some how "the enemy" or the bad guy in this little cluster. Newsflash Bioware is NOT the enemy. There is no enemy here and some of you lot need to check your IFFs if you're shooting your mouths off and generally acting like ****s. Bioware is a company who's passionate about their products and I'd say we are at least as passionate about it as they are, they love to create and we love what they create,

Run around or not Dr. M, Casey, Chris, Jessica and everyone else taking the time to actually talk to us are talking to us and you can be assured that that they are listening. This is the long game we're playing here folks. Nothing's going to be solved in a week, two weeks or even *gasp* three weeks. I think the estimate everyone's saying about the first serious word coming at PAX is probably close to accurate. It really doesn't matter. Dr. M, no less then the co-founder of the company just told us April. So we have to wait till April and acting like a herd of idiots is not going to change that at all. Well... it could make them change their minds about listening to us, and shut down the starts of a healthy dialogue on the subject.

There's a common concept in the military called bearing. It refers to keeping your cool and carrying on no matter what in the nine hells is going on around it. While most of the Retake movement are card carrying unprintable civilians (not that there's a problem with that ) we can stand to take a leaf from that particular book. So let's keep our bearing, continue to comport ourselves as the rational mature adults and teenagers we are and hold the line!

Semper Fi and Keelah Se'lai

Modifié par Ampmaster, 21 mars 2012 - 11:56 .

[RedTail F22]

Agreed. Thats one of the risk of starting a movement and gaining members so quickly. You start recruiting people who are unable to control their passion or their "inner troll" and they start hurting the image of a once noble group. Next thing you know civil people begin to leave the movement out of concern of being associated with those who are going too far. Its tragic really. But regardless I feel the movement must continue strong and continue to elaborate on the "be civil/polite" aspects of the group. Dont lose hope

[magor1988x]

MintyCool wrote...


BREAKING!

Retake Mass Effect is falling apart: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213

"Pro-enders" are getting desperate if they're trying to bait "Retakers" like this. The 'movement' is not falling apart. Far from it. We just won a victory & have proven our point, Myzuka clearly stated in his interview that the ending provided no clarity or feeling of conclusion. While that's not so far as to throw the ending out completely the cofounder & one of the most important figures at BW just admitted that their ending did not work as intended.

Where BW & fans proceed from here is the important part.

There is a simple solution for the "Proenders" .... Don't download any DLC that changes the ending. Period. You can keep your A, B, & C ending with Star Child & the Explosion of Many Colors. All of us who do not like the ending will fight for & then download DLC that fixes the mess of an ending that BW created.

Games are an expression of art only to a certain point. Games are made to make a profit, they are mass consumer goods. That means we as the consumer have a large say in what we get as a final product. If we don't like the final product we have the right to complain until it is fixed, ask for our money back, & discontinue all further purchases from the producer of those goods. 

It is clear that a significant portion of Mass Effect consumers do not like the endings & will push for them to be changed. If you don't like that, don't buy the new ending.

If you loved Fallout 3's ending, don't buy Broken Steel.

Meanwhile we need to remain civil & direct with BW.

[leventegl]

A music, what i wrote for this movement, called Retake Mass Effect 3 Theme
 Enjoy, and remember: Hold the line!

[ericjdev]

I didn't sign on for paranoia and vitriol, yesterday was embarassing. If you can't realize that threatening people, making wild and baseless accusations and failing to control your emotions reflects poorly on all of us, on the movement as a whole, you should at least repect the movement enough to go away. Blaming it on pro-enders is wrong, it's on us. You need to stop shooting us all in the foot. Discipline, civility and unity were what this thing was all about when I got here.

[Lugaidster]

Valo_Soren wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Yup, and if people dont calm down we're going to become the villains once again.

The lot of you who are being rabind and destructive already make you look like villains, there's an old saying 'guilty by association'.

No wonder it's old. It's full of prejudice.

[Aurica]

Would it be considered, unruly, uncivilized & unreasonable if we do not personally attack BW staff but tell our friends and gaming associates to boycott their products?

I mean we aren't resorting to personal attacks but it does hit them where it hurts most.

[MaaZeus]

At the times I fear that trolls may have infiltrated our ranks. Using our goals to spread mob spirit and increase hostility against what we consider our "opponents". Similar to what soccer/football vandals do, intentional or no. And its very easy considering how emotionally invested we are into this serie, turning our peace into rage may require surprisingly little effort.

But thats just me. Stay cool people. Keep all relevant articles and vids up and visible so no detail is missed. Be loud but dont be jerks.