148 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. MannlyMan]

I'll break the OP down for people who are just joining us now:

"I don't get why people dislike the endings. I have failed to find a well-reasoned, detailed argument that explains why the endings don't make sense, that succeeds at persuading me. I'm assuming that there aren't any, and that everyone who hates the ending is a rageaholic who hasn't sat down for more than 5 minutes to think about why they feel that way. I also think that people are only angry because the game didn't have a rainbows-and-bunnies ending, and instead of explaining why I feel that way (in the proper forum), I will instead criticize those people who hate the endings, based on a generalization of the issues present."

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 21 mars 2012 - 10:12 .

[Arkitekt]

Legion64 wrote...

kelsjet wrote...

Texansamurai wrote...
I'm glad you liked the ending, I sure wish I could have

Don't just wish.
PM me about any questions you have and I will explain the gaps for you.

I think a lot of people are not liking the ending because maybe they just don't get some of the subtleties. Not that the ending is particularly subtle or amazing, its just not your "ZOMG TERRORIRTZ R DAED! WE WINZ!!" that you usually get in games these days. 

I have yet to actually see someone clearly articulate what is it about the content of the ending that doesn't make sense. All I hear is people raging and saying that they didn't get a "Happy Days!" ending. 

To be honest, a "Happy Days!" ending just would not work in the ME universe. It would be amazingly inconsistent if at the end of the day everyone is happy! It just wouldn't fit.

What is ironic, is that the very same people saying that they don't like the ending because there is no "Happy Days!" are the very same people who in their next breath call the current ending(s) inconsistent.

I don't think you understand. We're not asking for a Happy ending. We want an ending that makes sense.

The fact that Bioware destroyed the mass relays in the end completely destroys the reason to stop the reapers. Now that the mass relays are gone, everyone still ends up being screwed anyway. You clearly haven't read much of what the community has said about the ending.

The whole logic about the reapers is terrible. "We made syntheics to kill organics to save organics from being killed by synthetics". Whoever made that idea up needs to re-think that idea. It's stupid.

"Everyone still ends up being screwed anyway" is just one of those wrong knee jerk arguments the OP is talking about that I do not subscribe at all. Yes, it's a bad situation, but it's not as bad as being culled by the inevitable death grip of the reapers. Furthermore, there is the sense that the Mass Relays are tainted as being part of the Reapers' whole shenanigan, and to have them destroyed seems to me as a sign of freedom. Now you get to do your own mass relays with your own tools. The galaxy has time. They willl eventually get it.

[Rickin10]

kelsjet wrote...



I have yet to actually see someone clearly articulate what is it about the content of the ending that doesn't make sense. All I hear is people raging and saying that they didn't get a "Happy Days!" ending. 

That is just flat-out bollox.  There have been zillions of threads articulating a myriad of problems with the ending. People didn't necessarily want happy.  They wanted choice, sense, closure, and for our decisions to matter etc.  Things that were promised.  Please watch angry joes video posted above.

[Icemix]

Tazzmission wrote...

imo the ending fit the story but alot of others will argue it dosent

It doesn't fit the story in any shape or form. Prove me wrong.

[Arkitekt]

Mannly that was pretty good.

[kelsjet]

Rickin10 wrote...

This seems to be the most coherent example of everything that is wrong with the ending.

Please watch:

I did. In fact that was one of the first things that I watched, and I completely disagree.

The only valid point the guy made was based on presentation and choice, the other parts actually make sense. He wrote them off as inconsistencies just because he could not think up the reasons behind them. PM me, I'll tell you the reasons.

Rogue Unit wrote...
We want an ending the makes sense and doesn't detroy everything setup by the entire series.

But that is precisely my point. The endings do make sense.

Legion64 wrote...
The whole logic about the reapers is terrible. "We made syntheics to kill organics to save organics from being killed by synthetics". 

I totally disagree. The logic makes perfect sense.

What we MUST strive to remember (heck its even said in game) is that the reapers actually let some civilizations live and repopulate the galaxy. That is a critical part to their logic.

If the reapers didn't 'reap' and left the synthetics to their own devices, ALL organic life would be wiped out. One of the main themes in all games is the utter dominance of synthetic life over organic (if you want examples, PM me and I will give you them). 

By preventing organics creating synthetic life to destroy themselves, the reapers ensure that the galaxy will always have some organic life and not just be a galaxy of synthetics. 

[kelsjet]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

I'll break the OP down for people who are just joining us now:

"I don't get why people dislike the endings. I have failed to find a well-reasoned, detailed argument that explains why the endings don't make sense, that succeeds at persuading me. I'm assuming that there aren't any

(emphasis mine)

The highlighted is where your argument breaks down. I have explicitly stated multiple times that I am in fact not assuming none exist and that I am more than happy to hear such arguments if they are made. I have even asked people to PM me their arguments if they fear for spoilers.

You are strawmanning, hard.

[Tim_H]

kelsjet wrote...
Not having sat down for just even 5 mins to think about what the ending could mean and instead just having a knee jerk reaction to it.

LOL, I reached the ending Saturday at 1AM and sat for about an hour contemplating it.  Then, much of the next day.

"Everybody dies."  It was simply depressing.  I went into the ending expecting Shephard to somehow pull through and have a little cut scene or write-up about him and Liara at the end.

Even assuming Shephard died--plausible, considering the enormity--I at least expected to see some good to have come out of his sacrifice.  

Everything was just so bleak.  If the "three endings" had at least led to a text storyboard giving updates and closing out the series, I think fan reaction would have been less severe.  

Not blowing up the mass relays and showing earth rebuilding and giving an aftermath.  Something simple would have worked.  Just not an in-your-face mass destruction followed by pay-per-view interviews in which the creators say they wanted "speculation" for the artistic value.

And we speculated.  Mass relays blown up.  Galaxy's armies trapped in the Earth solar system.  Pretty bleak.  And Joker lands on a garden of eden with your love interest who looks perfectly thrilled despite the catastrophe.

That's upbeat.........................................................................

[kelsjet]

Icemix wrote...
It doesn't fit the story in any shape or form. Prove me wrong.

PM me exactly which part of the ending(s) you feel "doesn't fit the story in any shape or form" and I will PM you back on how it does.

[Legion64]

The random Godchild that came out of no where and just decided to give us three decisions out of randomness was something unexpected.

[Habs25]

You're not, but many people will regard your opinion as invalid because they have succumbed to the mob mentality of the entitled few. Holding the line on your opinion is a lot more worthy, good post.

[ErockK92]

It's an amazing game even if the ending is not that good. It was a lot more fun than the last two. I will never pass up free DLC though.

[kelsjet]

Legion64 wrote...

The random Godchild that came out of no where and just decided to give us three decisions out of randomness was something unexpected.

The "Deus Ex Machina" of the GodChild was a bit of twist, but I think that is more of an issue of presentation, not with the point being made.

Even if we say that they presented the choices in a strange manner, the actual choices themselves are consistent, which is the point I am making.

[Eliavres33]

Here is a post I made in another thread, please tell me if you don't agree with it:

Eliavres33 wrote...

There's something people seem to be forgetting and that left me pretty disappointed with the game. I guess
I'll post it here, I believe everyone will agree and I hope the mods & higher-ups see it.

In "AngryJoe's Top 10 reasons why we hate the ending" video, he points out in his 5th reason one of the details the game is lacking the most:

"So many of us logically thought that the War Assets we had collected, the hours of multiplayer played and the relationships we repaired over the course of the game would have impact and be shown during the take back of Earth."

Inthe beginning of the final battle, when they show that huge armada that
we assembled to fight the reapers coming through the Mass Relay, they
basically just show a huge amount of ships. Aside from the huge Asari
dreadnoughts, the only ships we can actually recognise are the Geth and
the Quarian ships.

So we ask, where were the Krogan, Hanar and Batarian, no matter how few? Where were the Blue Suns, Eclipse and Blood Pack ships? These would most definitely be easily recognisable, in the very least for their paint jobs. Where were the Volus bombers?

Wherewere the RACHNI? Even if we saved them in the first game AND in this one, they aren't even mentioned in the final battle, much less their ships shown. This last case especially, is simply blatant, despite their
huge potential impact on the fight, they were pretty much just fed to us as cannon fodder in the action parts of the game. To think how eager some of us have been since the first Mass Effect to see Rachni ships..is
just desolating.

But it's not just about appearing in the Final Battle. Bioware could have and should have shown us a bit of each races' battle tactics, big or small. Regardless of their opinion on the ending(s), everyone would've liked to see small details like a squad of elcor tanks in action, or a group of rachni overwhelming a brute, or some volus finally picking up a gun. Little bits and pieces of Mass Effects' lore that we always assumed would find their way into the game to give us a sense that truly every race was out there, playing their part, giving out their all in a desperate attempt to stop the Reapers.
Bitsand pieces that, when all summed up, would have made the ending even
more spectacular and awe-inspiring. But instead, it left us feeling like a lot is missing.

So if you're working hard on giving us closure, please take this matter in to account

Modifié par Eliavres33, 21 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[Icemix]

kelsjet wrote...

Icemix wrote...
It doesn't fit the story in any shape or form. Prove me wrong.

PM me exactly which part of the ending(s) you feel "doesn't fit the story in any shape or form" and I will PM you back on how it does.

Ok, since when is the technological singularity problem been a part of the Mass Effect universe?
Where was the Normandy going?
Since when would Joker or any of the crew abandon Shepard, we all know they would not even do it if Shepard commands them to.
Why would Shepard just agree with all the bull**** that the starchild presented?
How did Anderson reach the control room first,when he clearly states the he followed Shepard up, and there is only one path to the control room?

[kelsjet]

Eliavres33 wrote...
Here is a post I made in another thread, please tell me if you don't agree with it:

Eliavres33, your post is perfecty valid. You have issue with presentation, more specifically, presentation of your choices. As stated in my OP, presentation is something that could have been done better.

I am trying to address people who have issue with content, i.e. the actual point being made in the ending(s).

I completely agree that they could have presented the choices you made in a better fashion. 

[ErockK92]

Eliavres33 wrote...

Here is a post I made in another thread, please tell me if you don't agree with it:

Eliavres33 wrote...

There's something people seem to be forgetting and that left me pretty disappointed with the game. I guess
I'll post it here, I believe everyone will agree and I hope the mods & higher-ups see it.

In "AngryJoe's Top 10 reasons why we hate the ending" video, he points out in his 5th reason one of the details the game is lacking the most:

"So many of us logically thought that the War Assets we had collected, the hours of multiplayer played and the relationships we repaired over the course of the game would have impact and be shown during the take back of Earth."

Inthe beginning of the final battle, when they show that huge armada that
we assembled to fight the reapers coming through the Mass Relay, they
basically just show a huge amount of ships. Aside from the huge Asari
dreadnoughts, the only ships we can actually recognise are the Geth and
the Quarian ships.

So we ask, where were the Krogan, Hanar and Batarian, no matter how few? Where were the Blue Suns, Eclipse and Blood Pack ships? These would most definitely be easily recognisable, in the very least for their paint jobs. Where were the Volus bombers?

Wherewere the RACHNI? Even if we saved them in the first game AND in this one, they aren't even mentioned in the final battle, much less their ships shown. This last case especially, is simply blatant, despite their
huge potential impact on the fight, they were pretty much just fed to us as cannon fodder in the action parts of the game. To think how eager some of us have been since the first Mass Effect to see Rachni ships..is
just desolating.

But it's not just about appearing in the Final Battle. Bioware could have and should have shown us a bit of each races' battle tactics, big or small. Regardless of their opinion on the ending(s), everyone would've liked to see small details like a squad of elcor tanks in action, or a group of rachni overwhelming a brute, or some volus finally picking up a gun. Little bits and pieces of Mass Effects' lore that we always assumed would find their way into the game to give us a sense that truly every race was out there, playing their part, giving out their all in a desperate attempt to stop the Reapers.
Bitsand pieces that, when all summed up, would have made the ending even
more spectacular and awe-inspiring. But instead, it left us feeling like a lot is missing.

So if you're working hard on giving us closure, please take this matter in to account

That's a very good point.  The whole "War Asset" part of the game seems like it was just a ploy to keep you invested in the story.  A motivator with no reward.

[Texansamurai]

I sent you my top40 objections I had against the ending and why they dont make sense.

IF anyone wants to respond or enlighten me on the answers, feel free to ask for them

Also I have additionally 15 smaller ones if you would like to adress those as well.

Modifié par Texansamurai, 21 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[kelsjet]

Icemix wrote...

Ok, since when is the technological singularity problem been a part of the Mass Effect universe?

What 'technological singularity'? If you refer to the synthetics vs organics thing. There is a vast host of sublte and some not so subtle hints in the all 3 games that elude to the utter dominance of synthetics over organics. 

Where was the Normandy going?

Running away from a big ball of strange stuff which they had no idea what it is.

Since when would Joker or any of the crew abandon Shepard, we all know they would not even do it if Shepard commands them to.

"We all know" is an 'appeal to the masses' (yet another fallacy) mixed with begging the question. Remember, Joker and the entire surviving Normandy crew already "abandoned" Shepard for dead in the beginning of ME2. 'Abandoning' your CO makes sense if you have the entire crew of your ship that you have to save on the other hand.

Why would Shepard just agree with all the bull**** that the starchild presented?

Maybe because its not actual BS? You use circular logic. See my answer a few posts above about why the reaper logic makes sense.

How did Anderson reach the control room first,when he clearly states the he followed Shepard up, and there is only one path to the control room?

Where did you get the information that there is only one path to the control room? In the sequence itself it states there are multiple paths.
Also, Anderson didn't take a red beam to the face. 


Please send your next set to me via PM. I don't want to go into to much spoiler detail here.

[kelsjet]

Texansamurai wrote...
I sent you my top40 objections I had against the ending and why they dont make sense.

I have recieved them and to be honest, they are more presentation and mechanics based, not actually "content" based questions, e.g.

1. Why does shepard have unlimited pistol ammo in the final sequance

or 

2. Why isint shepard able to kill the keepers in the citdel with it

These are not really "plot" inconsistencies. They are more "suspension of disbelief" mechanics.

Sure, we can create a whole lot of inconsistencies in all three games if we put aside "suspension of disbelief". Why can't I kill anyone on the Normandy? Why can't I romance random engineer #14 who sits to the left of the CIC?

That being said, I will address the questions you sent me which actually deal with inconsistencies of the content of the endings.

[Kungfu Nando]

I have posted my own thread ( http://social.biowar...1911/1#10413745 ) doing what you ask, I even have some different reasons why (slightly but still) I'm not a massive fan of how it ended.

Basically it boils down to how the ended felt like it was made for the few that were joining us now doing an "Action, NO desicions" playthrought. The endings are fine on there own and for a game like halo ( sad ending), or call of duty (sad ish ending) or bioshock were choice and consequence is not a real issue ( then again even biosshock had to very different endings). If I had just joined the games or done as I said a Action playthrough I probably wouldn't fine the endings so poor. They destroy choice or rather the choices I have made become moot and replay is lost in my eyes. I do believe the journey can be undone by the destination if the point of getting there is lost.

[Cerberus_Avenger]

i loved the ending, but then again i'm just a regular Die-hard mass effect Fan who will be happy with anything FROM mass effect.
i think the only problem i had was the whole "prothean" squadmate DLC.
still have to see if it's worth it storyline wise
i hear he's pretty G$%#@_N racist, LMAO

[Arkitekt]

Icemix wrote...

kelsjet wrote...

Icemix wrote...
It doesn't fit the story in any shape or form. Prove me wrong.

PM me exactly which part of the ending(s) you feel "doesn't fit the story in any shape or form" and I will PM you back on how it does.

Ok, since when is the technological singularity problem been a part of the Mass Effect universe?

Funny thing. Ever since Mass Effect 1's Sovereign speech that the term "technological singularity" clinged on my mind perfectly. Sovereign was clearly a product of precisely such an event. In ME2 I was proven right at the end. The whole ME series was about "synthetics vs organics", ever since Eden Prime.

Where was the Normandy going?
Since when would Joker or any of the crew abandon Shepard, we all know they would not even do it if Shepard commands them to.

I'm very curious to this question as well. Even if you assume Shepard is dead, why leave the heat of the battle? I don't think there's any good explanation lurking in any writer's minds. This was most probably just a huge mistake.

Why would Shepard just agree with all the bull**** that the starchild presented?

Because the whole scene wasn't peer-reviewed like all the others.

How did Anderson reach the control room first,when he clearly states the he followed Shepard up, and there is only one path to the control room?

Small irrelevant inconsistency. So they kinda botched Anderson's speech (I don't recall exactly his words so I am taking what you say for granted). His presence there is not bad at all.

[kelsjet]

Arkitekt wrote...
I'm very curious to this question as well. Even if you assume Shepard is dead, why leave the heat of the battle? 

What battle??

Irrespective of which ending you choose, the battle has ended by the time the big ball is deployed. The Normandy is running away from a big ball of strange stuff, which is a natural reaction when you don't know what that ball actually is or does.

The rest of the things I have already addressed.

[Rockworm503]

Arkitekt wrote...

Legion64 wrote...

kelsjet wrote...

Texansamurai wrote...
I'm glad you liked the ending, I sure wish I could have

Don't just wish.
PM me about any questions you have and I will explain the gaps for you.

I think a lot of people are not liking the ending because maybe they just don't get some of the subtleties. Not that the ending is particularly subtle or amazing, its just not your "ZOMG TERRORIRTZ R DAED! WE WINZ!!" that you usually get in games these days. 

I have yet to actually see someone clearly articulate what is it about the content of the ending that doesn't make sense. All I hear is people raging and saying that they didn't get a "Happy Days!" ending. 

To be honest, a "Happy Days!" ending just would not work in the ME universe. It would be amazingly inconsistent if at the end of the day everyone is happy! It just wouldn't fit.

What is ironic, is that the very same people saying that they don't like the ending because there is no "Happy Days!" are the very same people who in their next breath call the current ending(s) inconsistent.

I don't think you understand. We're not asking for a Happy ending. We want an ending that makes sense.

The fact that Bioware destroyed the mass relays in the end completely destroys the reason to stop the reapers. Now that the mass relays are gone, everyone still ends up being screwed anyway. You clearly haven't read much of what the community has said about the ending.

The whole logic about the reapers is terrible. "We made syntheics to kill organics to save organics from being killed by synthetics". Whoever made that idea up needs to re-think that idea. It's stupid.

"Everyone still ends up being screwed anyway" is just one of those wrong knee jerk arguments the OP is talking about that I do not subscribe at all. Yes, it's a bad situation, but it's not as bad as being culled by the inevitable death grip of the reapers. Furthermore, there is the sense that the Mass Relays are tainted as being part of the Reapers' whole shenanigan, and to have them destroyed seems to me as a sign of freedom. Now you get to do your own mass relays with your own tools. The galaxy has time. They willl eventually get it.

Most of the galaxy stranded in the sol system.
Lets just ignore the canon that the destruction of a Mass Relay = almost complete destruction of the system its on.
Lets just ignore all the varied races where the only livable planet is pretty much charcoal and cant support its own people let alone.
Lets just ignore Turians and Quarians who cant even eat other races foods because of their biology.
Please tell me who is going to be alive long enough to "build mass relays"?