35 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Spoilers for DA II and ME 3.

In a thread in the announcement section, Mark Darrah wrote this...

To make sure I get your concerns:
1. More customization (Let's me change follower armor. More equipment upgrades)
2. More traditional fantasy story (Epic enemy, clear villain)
3. More areas and areas variety
4. More control over my story.

Does that capture it?

I like to specifically address the notion of traditional fantasy as being more desirable. Dragon Age II did a lot to change up BioWare's story formula and because of the resulting backlash, it may seem that BioWare fans only want that traditional fantasy story. This might be acerbated by the current displeasure many fans are voicing about Mass Effect's story.

I don't claim to speak for all BioWare fans here, just to be clear.

Traditional fantasy stories aren't necessary. I don't need to play an Awesome Hero who is the Chosen One to fight the Evil Group lead by the Dark Lord and Save the World.

I do want a heroic narrative. The feeling that I overcame great obstacles and accomplished something worthwhile.

At the end of DA II, I had to wonder if the world wouldn't have been better off if Hawke had died in Lothering. After all, Meredith was tough but she didn't seem bloodthirsty until Hawke dug up that lyrium relic. The situation in Kirkwall was tense, but if Hawke hadn't helped and protected Anders, I think that chantry would still be here.

If you're pro-mage and supported the rebellion, it might be a bit more satisfying, but even then, Hawke didn't do anything on purpose. There was no 'free the mages of Thedas by blowing up the Chantry and overthrowing the Templar-Commander' storyline. It was Hawke getting caught up in events that she was utterly ignorant of.

Likewise, the ending of Mass Effect renders the vast majority of your accomplishments meaningless. I tried to help all those people on the Citadel and they all died. I tried to save organics from the Reapers but destroyed galactic civilization. I cured the genophage, but the krogan's best chance for a new future (Wrex) is stranded on earth, and there's no way the krogan can support a healthy population on their wasteland of the planet.

I'd like to contrast this to other BioWare games.

Dragon Age: Origins = Saved Thedas from Blight. Possibly lead to Fereldan golden age. Possibly lead to mages, city elves, or dalish having a much easier life.

Jade Empire = Saved world from ghosts and demons overrunning it. Possibly became new emperor.

Knights of the Old Republic = Saved galaxy from Sith. Possibly became ruler of galaxy. (And I'll point out that the galaxy would likely be better under Revan than the Galactic Republic)

BG 2 = Saved my sister and a bunch of elves. Kick the *** of the arrogant British tosser who tried to steal my soul/power.

I'd go so far as to add...
Dragon Age II, Act 2: Saved city. Defeat Arishok.

Here's the thing, saving my sister in BG 2 felt just as good as saving the galaxy in KotOR. Defeating the Arishok felt just as good as blowing up a Reaper.

Likewise, neither the Witcher 2 nor Deus Ex: HR are traditional fantasy tales, but they both give you the sense of having to overcome great obstacles and having accomplished something worthwhile.

There's one thing more I wanted to say, but I'm at work and have spent too much time on this already.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[hoorayforicecream]

I'm curious... would you consider Planescape Torment to be a heroic narrative?

[TEWR]

Personally speaking, I wasn't disappointed with DAII because of the change from traditional fantasy to a more original concept, but rather that the original concept wasn't executed properly.

If Bioware can give an original concept the devotion it deserves and implement it the way it should be, then I'm all for it. But if they can't, then what's the point? Why go for originality if you can't make it stellar in the process? Just to say "We did something original"?

What's the point of doing something original if the end result is that the original concept was mediocre in implementation? What does that gain you in the long run?

[cJohnOne]

Well according to you defintion it would be Heroic Events, but that doesn't mean you can't have elements of traditional fantasy. What about great events?

[Dave of Canada]

Dragon Age 2's potential was great, it basically avoided most of Bioware tropes and having the character not be anybody special and going with the flow proved far more entertaining and is what made Hawke one of my favorite protagonists--he was caught up in the events which were out of his hands.

Unfortunately, it's actual implementation with limited use of framed narrative and Hawke basically being this man who stumbles onto being champion was rather weak. I don't mind when Hawke cannot stop the war from starting or can't save his mother, it showed that these protagonists as still "human" and can fail, though the actual victories which Hawke achieved were simply borrowed or "stolen".

For the future, I'd much more enjoy a mix between both. The player is involved in the events happening throughout the game, he/she doesn't accidently stumble onto their victory (like they kill X and become famed for it because everybody else was busy) but they're also powerless to stop other things, they're not this great invincible protagonist who can bring about 100% peace with the sound of his voice (DA:O).

[Maria Caliban]

cJohnOne wrote...

Well according to you defintion it would be Heroic Events, but that doesn't mean you can't have elements of traditional fantasy. What about great events?

All traditional fantasy has the heroic narrative. But there are a huge number of tropes that traditional fantasy has that a heroic narrative doesn't need.

1. Chosen One / Destiny
2. Wise Mentor
3. Evil Horde
4. Dark Lord
5. Strict good and evil
6. The fate of all hanging in the balance.
7. Royal/exalted bloodlines

And so on.

What do you mean by Heroic Events?

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm curious... would you consider Planescape Torment to be a heroic narrative?

That deserves a complex answer. Will tackle it later.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2012 - 10:47 .

[Wulfram]

Watch the ME3 spoilers there.

But yeah, a sense of having achieved something is good.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

I don't think the problem with the story was that it was untraditional, it was that neither the story nor the storytelling was very good. As long as they put the emphasis on #4, however, no complaints from me.

[Xewaka]

You know what would be great? Having the game go pulp/noir. Considering the framing for DA 2 was Cassandra's investigation, build from that. Expand the search, have the protagonist of DA 3 pick up the investigation and keep searching. Have the player character become an investigator. Give us a detective adventure.
Or don't. Give us balls and fancy masks. Give us conspirators. Give us a renaissance court intrigue, with backstabbing, political maneuvering, and tactical murder.
There are thousands of themes to explore beyond traditional fantasy and heroic narratives.
Just because the setting is traditional fantasy doesn't mean we have to stick to traditional fantasy themes.

Modifié par Xewaka, 21 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[cJohnOne]

I mixed up Heroic narrative with heroic events, Oops.

[Maria Caliban]

Xewaka wrote...

You know what would be great? Having the game go pulp/noir. Considering the framing for DA 2 was Cassandra's investigation, build from that. Expand the search, have the protagonist of DA 3 pick up the investigation and keep searching. Have the player character become an investigator. Give us a detective adventure.
Or don't. Give us balls and fancy masks. Give us conspirators. Give us a renaissance court intrigue, with backstabbing, political maneuvering, and tactical murder.
There are thousands of themes to explore beyond traditional fantasy and heroic narratives.
Just because the setting is traditional fantasy doesn't mean we have to stick to traditional fantasy themes.

A detective adventure is a heroic narrative.

Well, I suppose a cozy mystery wouldn't be, but 'political maneuvering' makes me believe you weren't suggesting Miss. Marple.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 mars 2012 - 11:07 .

[Das Tentakel]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Here's the thing, saving my sister in BG 2 felt just as good as saving the galaxy in KotOR. Defeating the Arishok felt just as good as blowing up a Reaper.

Likewise, neither the Witcher 2 nor Deus Ex: HR are traditional fantasy tales, but they both give you the sense of having to overcome great obstacles and having accomplished something worthwhile.

There's one thing more I wanted to say, but I'm at work and have spent too much time on this already.

' Epic'  tends to get confused with 'world-saving', while it is often simply used in terms of 'grand, impressive'.
Defeating a powerful and sinister crime boss can be just as epic as defeating the Archdemon. Probably even more so, if the crimeboss is excellently portrayed as a formidable personality. 
Thrillers, historical novels, westerns, science fiction and quite a few ' non-traditional'  (or non-pseudo-Tolkienian, as I prefer to call it) fantasy stories succeed very well in being epic without having to save the world, or the galaxy.

EDIT: Late and tired^_^. Re-read the 'heroic narrative'  stuff and quite agree.
But: A heroic narrative other than ye standard pseudo-LotR plot (or alternatively ye standard aulde space opera plotte sto...er, borrowed from Straczynski, Freespace and other sources) does, I think, require more skill/writing/plotting ability. Writing good political intrigues that keep a reader/viewer/player's attention, for instance, isn't easy. 
To be honest, I am not sure if  Bioware's writers have the skill/experience/knowledge to do such things properly.
Then again, maybe they should be allowed to try, fail, learn and try again.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 21 mars 2012 - 11:19 .

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...
A detective adventure is a heroic narrative.
Well, I suppose a cozy mystery wouldn't be, but 'political maneuvering' makes me believe you weren't suggesting Miss. Marple.

No, I was thinking more in the lines of Bogart's characters.
Well, to be completely honest, I was thinking of Discworld Noir.
I do believe cRPG have a lot to learn about plotting and character from graphic adventures, and that they should be learning more from that and less from action games. But that's just me.

[Das Tentakel]

Xewaka wrote...

... Give us balls and fancy masks. Give us conspirators. Give us a renaissance court intrigue, with backstabbing, political maneuvering, and tactical murder...

Funny that. I am rather fond of Joe Abercrombie's 'Best Served Cold', which exactly takes place in such a kind of setting. Joe played both DA:O and DA2, by the way (www.joeabercrombie.com/2011/04/18/dragon-age-2/ ).

When DA2 was announced, I was sort of hoping for such a setting. My historian's heart always beats faster when I get a whiff of medieval/renaissance city-state politics and intrigues .  My wall still has dents from when I banged my forehead once I saw what I got:(

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 21 mars 2012 - 11:35 .

[Wulfram]

The advantage of saving the world as a plot is that it's pretty easy to justify a wide variety of PCs taking it as an objective. And indeed, to justify a diverse group of characters working together.

[marktcameron]

make da3 like Traditional Fantasy like it was in dao

[HiroVoid]

Wulfram wrote...

The advantage of saving the world as a plot is that it's pretty easy to justify a wide variety of PCs taking it as an objective. And indeed, to justify a diverse group of characters working together.

Pretty much this.  I also see no reason why a pro-templar Hawke would have let people like Anders(and Merrill) go around free like they are.

[HansJurgens]

I was left wanting after playing DAII, but thoroughly enjoyed playing DAO. I like the tactics feature of DAO, but I don't think I bothered much at all with this in DAII.

There are a couple of things I would like to see:

1- Character type related quests, this would encourage re-playability as different characters and perhaps this should go towards developing unique endings.

2- I want to be able to customize my character and followers - basics like being able to change their amour, jewelery and weapons; it goes without saying that there should be decent variety in this.

3- A wider range of spells and warrior moves!

4- I couldn't be bothered caring for any character in DAII in the end. But I did care for a lot of the characters in DAO, I feel I got to know them, and was able to influence their life story. Not so much in DAII. This I think is a key aspect.

[Mmw04014]

The traditional fantasy narrative like Origins isn't a necessity for me. I love it to death and I will never complain if it shows up again in another Dragon Age game, but it's not something I demand.

DA2 tried to do something different and failed. It's as if every interesting concept was paired with an attribute that killed any promise it might have had. Focusing on one city the entire game was an interesting concept, however any changes were so minor they were virtually undetected and despite being a huge city, we never branched out into new areas. Having the story span a long timespan was interesting, however none of the characters every aged or even changed their clothes and entire relationships were stalled for ridiculous amounts of time just they could fit into the timeblocks set up.

There was also the problem that you state, the complete pointlessness of Hawke. Actually not even pointlessness because it can be argued that things would be better off if Hawke never even showed up in Kirkwall, like you said.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 22 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I like to specifically address the notion of traditional fantasy as being more desirable. Dragon Age II did a lot to change up BioWare's story formula and because of the resulting backlash, it may seem that BioWare fans only want that traditional fantasy story. This might be acerbated by the current displeasure many fans are voicing about Mass Effect's story.

I don't claim to speak for all BioWare fans here, just to be clear.

Traditional fantasy stories aren't necessary. I don't need to play an Awesome Hero who is the Chosen One to fight the Evil Group lead by the Dark Lord and Save the World.

I do want a heroic narrative. The feeling that I overcame great obstacles and accomplished something worthwhile.

I agree with you that a traditional villain or a save the world plot isn't necessary. 

However, BioWare has yet to design a game without one that allows the player sufficient freedom to explore his own character as he sees fit.

Roleplaying isn't about defeating evil, but nor is it about finding your way through someone else's story or being bound by someone else's definition of what accomplishments are worthwhile.

Roleplaying is about seeing the world - any world - through someone else's eyes.  It's about immersing yourself in your character to such a degree that her preferences become your preferences, insofar as the gameplay is concerned.  While you might be interested to see what would happen if your character betrayed her family, you won't choose it if she simply would not do it.  You might think that fireball is an effective spell, but if your character is afraid of fire she won't use that spell under any circumstances.

You live the character.  The character is all that matters. 

Your character is paramount.  Your character's perspective is paramount.

Whichever style of game allows BioWare to let us roleplay that way is the style of game I want to see.

[aimichan]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I don't think the problem with the story was that it was untraditional, it was that neither the story nor the storytelling was very good. As long as they put the emphasis on #4, however, no complaints from me.

I agree. Dragon Age 2 was an interesting attempt at a new style, and I enjoyed some parts of it, but the lack of choices, or perhaps, the lack of impact of my choices made it boring to replay more than a few times.

Now, Origins, I've replayed way too many times because even without the voice actor (while welcome, not a necessity in an RPG), I had a lot of different choices which affected dialogue, NPCs reactions to me, events and my ending.

So, whether Bioware decides on a traditional fantasy or a heroic narrative, as long as my choices matter, then I'm good. 

[Sharn01]

Maria Caliban wrote...

/snip

I agree with you completely on this.

Modifié par Sharn01, 22 mars 2012 - 05:48 .

[Plaintiff]

I, personally, don't need either of those things. I don't need to feel that Hawke accomplished something "worthwhile". I just want to experience the story.