243 réponses à ce sujet

[Salis777]

dpgimenez wrote...

Bioware exists to SELL games. Not to create art. If you want to sell something, people must want to buy it. For that to happens, the stuff that you are selling must please the consumers. Why is that so hard to understand?

Anybody that sells something, if they want to survive in the market jungle, must listen to their customers. If the games were all bad, they could just leave like that because nobody would have played anyway.

We want it changed, because we care.

This.

[philippe willaume]

The PLC wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

Good job with the hyperbole.
If you promised your CD was going to be something and didn't deliver and half your fans were fans because of that promise than that would make sense.  Welcome to the consequence buddy don't make promises you can't keep.

That's not what I said. To continue with the album talk, every single tracks is amazing EXCEPT for the last few tracks. Everything is what everyone was hoping for, except for that. And if that makes people feel that they have the right to tell me what to do with my work, then yes, they can go to hell. 

It's the same with ME3. The game was amazing. Everything was spectacular except for the endings. 

No it is not the same thing and quite frankly i feel it is borderline condescending to pretend it is.
a fair few of us are quite happy with the artistic direction i.e. how the fundamentals question was changed and the ultimate end result of the game.
Now, those ending need to reflect/take my choices. I.e. they need to be put in the context of what I have done in the game and they need to be consistent with the story i have been told so far.

The reasons for that is this is what was advertised, this is what the franchise is famous for an quite frankly the contextualisation and the presentation are part of he job of the game producer.
it really have nothing to do with creative direction but with the quality of the execution. (for lack of a better word)
IE When you i buy on of your CD , I do expect your song, the last on included  to tell me something and have words in the right order and the fully compose music
Unless your are in Jazz fusion , I don't expect the last song of your album to be a few melodic lines and words in random orders so that I can make my own song.

It is just the end I hear you say, well a game is a bit like sex, if the ending is sloppy and too quick, it really mar the all proceedings, especially if the said proceedings were quite good until that point.

Phil

[Bluko]

Well to me it's both good and bad.

Good on the one side ME3 isn't going to end on such an awful note and that fan feedback is probably being used to make the best endings possible. This exactly what a company providing entertainment should seek to do. You knowing making something their customers want. We can say video games are "art" though what is art is very subjective to begin with. To me games are an entertainment product and not something I leave sitting on my shelf because it looks pleasing and brag to my friends about.

Bad on the other hand because now this effectively makes the retail version of ME3 incomplete. I'm not too keen on endings being added on later when most of us where lead to believe and expected Mass Effect 3 would deliver a definitive ending. Also if said "endings" have to be paid for... that's just flat out abhorrent. You know maybe the Prothean Squadmate can be argued as "optional", but not the legitimate endings. What also buggers me a little is I usually don't run an internet connection to my Xbox. I can if need be of course, but the thing is some folks may not be able to get the "real endings" now. Granted I'm sure this is only true for maybe like 0.5% game owners, but it's not something that should be overlooked.

However if the "Epilogue DLC" is offered up freely I might actually reconsider getting the Prothean DLC as to me that signifies Bioware isn't completely greedy and trying to scam me. Basically I can see the justification of charging for the Prothean DLC now as this is likely be done to cover some of the production costs that are going into finishing the endings. To me that is acceptable as I'm aware additional content costs time and money. Of course if I do have to pay to get a proper ending that's the final straw and I will not be purchasing Bioware or EA games in the future. Simple as that.


As for people who like the endings... yeah not sure what to say about that. I'm strongly inclined to call such folks names. I mean if you like the endings because of the supposed "Indoctrination Twist" sure. And if you don't hate the endings that's okay too.  But I really do not see how someone who has actually invested themselves in the games would be satisfied with these endings. They shouldn't because there's just so much wrong with them from the plotholes, to the lack of choice and closure, and to the outright betrayal of the games themes. If I was sitting next to someone and they said that was a good ending I'd honestly move away from them. And maybe throw a couple Isaac Asimov or Jules Vernes books at them. 

[Mojenator12345]

Art is not a democracy, but when it comes to AAA games or films, it's damned well a business. And the customer is right. Don't like it? Find a business where you don't have production costs that run in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Go make low-budget art house films and avant garde indy video games. But if you're in blockbuster business and make a habit of disregarding your customers... well, you won't be in that kind of business for long.

[Salis777]

Yeah if I was a major shareholder of EA or an exec there I'd be rolling my eyes at some of this artistic license stuff coming out of BW. It's all very cute, but wise up lol.

[Artemis_Entrari]

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

And you'd end up having the shortest music career in history.

But hey, stick to those guns, big guy.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

dpgimenez wrote...

Bioware exists to SELL games. Not to create art. If you want to sell something, people must want to buy it. For that to happens, the stuff that you are selling must please the consumers. Why is that so hard to understand?

Anybody that sells something, if they want to survive in the market jungle, must listen to their customers. If the games were all bad, they could just leave like that because nobody would have played anyway.

We want it changed, because we care.

It's strange that people don't get this.

[chris fenton]

HectorTheWellEndowed wrote...

I think everyone needs to stop giving IGN validation.

QFT

[BlaiidDrwg]

I am amazed that IGN doesn't notice the irony in their comments.. after all there is a very bad precedent exposed here and one that I have seen them point out in other game reviews..
They say it is bad when the artist bows to the fans and change their art.... HOW ABOUT when they bow to the marketers and corporate planners and bean counters? I have read many a review of other games where the reviewer said - this game felt hurried, this game could have used more time in beta.. etc.. etc.. That is what happened here. They changed the endings after the leak and didn't have enough time to do the new ones right thanks to a deadline. Do you really think they were lying to us when they said there would be 16 vastly different endings? That they were lying when they promised an epic conclusion? Were they wasting code time putting in all the choices and decisions and war assets to find? No. simply no. They did that work and they said those things because that is what the ARTISTS intended. Their integrity and vision lost out to marketing schedules and resource allocations - cold hard economics. If it takes a fanbased-sh**storm to make the marketers and such recalibrate their decision process, then this is a FANTASTIC precedent.

To BW: when I got to the option to summon the fleets to earth, I had to take a break and get some sleep.  From the reviews, the three previous games, my experience with DA, BG, ME, I was wholly expecting a truly epic wonderful experienc that would take a few hours to finish and that night wasn't going to be long enough. I knew I wouldn't be able to stop after hitting that button. I was enthralled, excited, and in awe. "Damn, they actually are going to go that big." "Wholly crap, how much midnight oil did they burn making this." "Wow." That is why I was so terribly disappointed. Space magic was just the icing on a very sad cake.

Modifié par BlaiidDrwg, 22 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[chris fenton]

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

I can see this happening.

Fan "Woo, this album rocks!"
*gets to last track*
"Wait, where's the heavy metal song we were promised?! I bought this just for a good CONCLUSION!
"MR PLC, I really love your music, but I just feel that you promised something that didn't happen!"
PLC: "You didn't like my album? Fine, sell it! Give it away, burn it! I don't care!"
Fan: "But I just..."
"Don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff!"
"I was just suggesting that you said something and it didn'-"
"**** off!"

"..." 


Yeah, would turn out great. 

Modifié par chris fenton, 22 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[Thompson family]

HectorTheWellEndowed wrote...

I think everyone needs to stop giving IGN validation.

This, although I will point out that OP was trying pretty hard to point out the lack of IGN validity.

[Paulinius]

I appreciate that BioWare has listened to feedback from its fans and is seeking to correct an mistake a fair number of ME3 players believe was made on BioWare's part.

[Ruined Requiem]

I still find it hilarious they're saying that BW is altering the ending when they haven't even confirmed it.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Ruined Requiem wrote...

I still find it hilarious they're saying that BW is altering the ending when they haven't even confirmed it.

This. Their response was about as non-commital as a PR response can be.

[Godzillla]

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

lol ...so called "fans" who fund your music 

maybe you dont understand how commodities work in the market place ...video games are not art pieces ..they are commodities funded by consumers ..bioware would be foolish not to at least slightly appease the retake movement because of unforseen consequences down the road 

[chris fenton]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ruined Requiem wrote...

I still find it hilarious they're saying that BW is altering the ending when they haven't even confirmed it.

This. Their response was about as non-commital as a PR response can be.

Yep. <_<

[Gigamantis]

Salis777 wrote...

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

And if your loyal fans gave you feedback about what they liked/disliked?

And if you'd signed up to a production studio, and you told your fans to f off?  Bye bye contract, and you'd probably get sued.

Making music because you like music as an artform and making music for a corporation for customers, are two HIGHLY different things.

So is this.

Loyal fans?  They were trying to sabotage the game since hours after release because they had a creative disagreement with how Bioware decided to end THEIR story.  They literally owe you parasites nothing.  

Artists create their vision and share it; the dimwitted masses have no claim to it and no right to expect their ideas to take precedent in the creative process.  You people are just entitled brats. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 22 mars 2012 - 12:49 .

[chris fenton]

Gigamantis wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

And if your loyal fans gave you feedback about what they liked/disliked?

And if you'd signed up to a production studio, and you told your fans to f off?  Bye bye contract, and you'd probably get sued.

Making music because you like music as an artform and making music for a corporation for customers, are two HIGHLY different things.

So is this.

Loyal fans?  They were trying to sabotage the game since hours after release because they had a creative disagreement with how Bioware decided to end THEIR story.  They literally owe you parasites nothing.  

Artists create their vision and share it; the dimwitted masses have no claim to it and no right to expect their ideas to take precedent in the creative process.  You people are just entitled brats. 

:O:O:O:O:O:O
Oh boy, here we go. We've got a badass in here.

[cachx]

 I work on a (very small) videogame company.

While I do think that the IGN guys are a bit douchy. They do have a point. I wouldn't have creative decision managed by vote or crowdsourcing, then it becomes asinine.

I would rather risk a crappy ending than just being continuosly pushed around by everybody.

[Ruined Requiem]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ruined Requiem wrote...

I still find it hilarious they're saying that BW is altering the ending when they haven't even confirmed it.

This. Their response was about as non-commital as a PR response can be.

Exactly.

[ashwind]

I am a developer myself and when fans/customers say they are not happy with something. I would have them fill in a "Change Request" then I will calculate the resources I need and send them a quotation. If they agree to pay, I will make the changes.

Back when I was writing MUDs, I ask the fans who petition my game for a change to suit them more to jump off a cliff

[SirRiot]

Colin Moriarty's Education

Northeastern University

BA, History (American History concentration)  2003 – 2007

This guys education is in history and he's an interweb blogger...are you really concerned with this idiots opinion? Come on guys - you're waaaaaayyyy better than this guy

Modifié par sirriot, 22 mars 2012 - 12:56 .

[Teddie Sage]

Gawd... This guy is pathetic.

[Salis777]

Gigamantis wrote...

Loyal fans?  They were trying to
sabotage the game since hours after release because they had a creative
disagreement with how Bioware decided to end THEIR story.  They
literally owe you parasites nothing.  

Artists create their
vision and share it; the dimwitted masses have no claim to it and no
right to expect their ideas to take precedent in the creative process. 
You people are just entitled brats. 

chris fenton wrote...

:O:O:O:O:O:O
Oh boy, here we go. We've got a badass in here.

Yeah he r vary smert 

Modifié par Salis777, 22 mars 2012 - 12:58 .