243 réponses à ce sujet

[Tymvir]

Bioware's choice: Remove the turd and create a better ending, or defend the turd to the death for artistic integrity.

[Lincoln MuaDib]

But let us look at the "Artist: idea.

Let's say I am an Artist. I paint a canvas. I do not let ANYBODY view my picture. I tell them, "I promise you, solid-gold 100% guarantee, that this picture is of Angelina Jolie, butt naked, painted using gold paint, unicorn tears and God's own Paintbrush. Untainted in every way. But you can't look at it, unless you pay me for it."

No public viewings.

So you trust the artist. You buy the portrait.

You take it home.

It is indeed Angelina Jolie naked, painted in gold paint.

Unfortunately, I the artist have smeared my excrement in broad stokes across the middle of the painting. You are dumbfounded. You call me up.

"Loving the painting, right?" I answer.
"WHAT? IS? WITH? THE? ****?"
"Hey, you got Jolie!"
"You specifically said 'no tainting'."
"Oh, that. Yeah. Well, I'm an Artist, and I changed my mind. Deal with it."
"You promised something you did not deliver."
"AAAARRRRRRTTTTTT!!!!!"

This is 100% different to real artists, who allow people to view their art before selling it.

[slimgrin]

Wow. What a couple of tools. As if Bioware really needs more reach arounds from the gaming press.

[Salis777]

Gigamantis wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Giving in to fans trying to stilt or change their creative process is just as bad as giving into anyone on the corporate level.  Uncreative people shouldn't force their way into the creative process.  You weren't hired to write this game and I certainly don't want you influencing how it's written.  I didn't buy this to experience your version of the Mass Effect world, I wanted theirs. 

I'm alright with the DLC if they charge you for it, but giving it to you for free would just validate your detrimental opinion that you should be in control of this game creatively.  

Again I didn't buy it.

The _consumers_ are not trying to CHANGE the creative process they are saying the creative process FAILED.  No one is asking for a group of fans (consumers) to be installed in the Edmonton office to oversee their writing team.

What they are asking for is for a new creative process to fix the problems caused by the last one, which FAILED in their opinion.  From a business point of view they are sure to react to it, and why not?  Consumer feedback is the basis of any sector of business in the world.

What you're trying to claim here is constructive feedback, and what's actually happening is the most trollish ******-fest ever conceived.  From the user review bombings to the threats of legal action for "false advertising" the user base has been a complete joke, and is obviously just attempting to muscle in on the creative process. 

There's no failure of the creative process being proven or even rationally discussed.  This is just a childish attempt to extort the company by scaring off potential new fans with gross exaggerations and flat out lies.  You people getting your way here would be a failure in the creative process. 

I see 58 pages of constructive feedback on the forum below.  I dont see you avoiding much of the trolling ******-fest either tbh.  Ignore the extremes at each side of the argument, there are plenty. 

But it's apparent EA/BW are concerned that people are unhappy with their product, regardless of what you think.  And a consumer does not have to 'prove' a failure of the creative process, its an opinion they hold.  Just like the ones all over your post.

I think you're vastly overblowing a normal (in most industries anyway) business situation.  And using a lot of generalizations about something you have little information on.  Leave EA to decide, its a business decision not a creative one.

[bleetman]

A few pages late, but:

lumen11 wrote...

Icemix wrote...

Seriously stop with the "its art" bullcrap.
Its invalid.

It isn't

What's more. We aren't developers. By 'forcing' Bioware to change the ending we are trying to fill in their role. While developers should pay attention to what fans want, it shouldn't be the basis of their development choices and it should always be their prerogative to change their vision based on what the fans want.

The average fan wants more of the same (not trying offend - it applies to me as well), but I honestly believe games become better when developers try to inovate and work with a personal vision.

I would agree, to a point. The point being when their 'artistic vision' starts to outstrip the necessity of having your end product actually be any good.

I don't have a problem with the way ME3 ended simply because it didn't end the way I would've liked. I have a problem with it because it's poorly written, contrived gibberish that does exactly what they said it wouldn't do, and none of what they said it would do.

'Artistic vision' only goes so far.

[DocManga]

don't you get it? Colin is indoctrinated.

[Oni Changas]

Gigamantis wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Giving in to fans trying to stilt or change their creative process is just as bad as giving into anyone on the corporate level.  Uncreative people shouldn't force their way into the creative process.  You weren't hired to write this game and I certainly don't want you influencing how it's written.  I didn't buy this to experience your version of the Mass Effect world, I wanted theirs. 

I'm alright with the DLC if they charge you for it, but giving it to you for free would just validate your detrimental opinion that you should be in control of this game creatively.  

Again I didn't buy it.

The _consumers_ are not trying to CHANGE the creative process they are saying the creative process FAILED.  No one is asking for a group of fans (consumers) to be installed in the Edmonton office to oversee their writing team.

What they are asking for is for a new creative process to fix the problems caused by the last one, which FAILED in their opinion.  From a business point of view they are sure to react to it, and why not?  Consumer feedback is the basis of any sector of business in the world.

What you're trying to claim here is constructive feedback, and what's actually happening is the most trollish ******-fest ever conceived.  From the user review bombings to the threats of legal action for "false advertising" the user base has been a complete joke, and is obviously just attempting to muscle in on the creative process. 

There's no failure of the creative process being proven or even rationally discussed.  This is just a childish attempt to extort the company by scaring off potential new fans with gross exaggerations and flat out lies.  You people getting your way here would be a failure in the creative process. 

Some of us can think for ourselves without trying to impress Mr. Corporation. When you make a product and say it will involve certain things and push it out not involving said things and people complain constructively, it's your job to suck it up admit you may have snuffed out a bit, and try to please your loyal customers. Again, we're not demanding they change things to exactly one specific idea; just simply saying the way they ended this epic was quite unfaithful to its own atmosphere.

Far beyond this, it's an important footnote in consumer/corporate relations. This whole movement shows just how much power consumers may or may not have, while also helping to shape what exactly ip's are. It's historical in many ways. However, in the end, this acknowledgement was and still is all in BioWare's hands. We're not forcing them of extorting them. They are choosing to listen to and alleviate our pleas, all the while making it clear that they still stand by the vision ME3 ended up with (i.e. not Drew K.'s).

[Naqey]

don´t know if someone has already posted this on the forums
but

http://ps3.ign.com/a.../1114043p1.html

Colin Moriarty (actual quotes):

"This is a studio that listens to its fans, cares what they want, and attempts to cater to as many of them as possible"
"After all, Greg and I did our fair share of whining on Podcast Beyond after the new Cole was first shown on the cover of Game Informer some months back"

hypocrisy anyone? ...

[AGoodGeek]

Olueq wrote...

IGNorance is bliss

NIIIIICCCEEE

[Naqey]

nvm

Modifié par Naqey, 22 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[InvincibleHero]

Godzillla wrote...

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

lol ...so called "fans" who fund your music 

maybe you dont understand how commodities work in the market place ...video games are not art pieces ..they are commodities funded by consumers ..bioware would be foolish not to at least slightly appease the retake movement because of unforseen consequences down the road 

Sorry you are entirely wrong. They are not commodities that gamers fund making the game as many games do not make back their investment in sales $ and the studios fold or are acquired by companies like EA or Activision. They garner sales based on marketing to gamers that it is a game they should enjoy playing. Like appeasing them doesn't also have unforseen and (known) consequences down the road. Appeasement usually ends bad with history as a guide. People always want more when emboldened by success.

[Dallbee]

I'm not a big fan of IGN mostly due to the editorial quality of their content, but in this case I have to agree on principle.  This decision by Bioware DOES set a negative precedent, effectively stating that if you don't get what you want, it's perfectly acceptable to stomp and threaten and gnash your teeth until someone gives it to you.

In child-rearing it's called negative reinforcement, and it's universally regarded as a bad thing.  If an unruly toddler doesn't get what they want, they pitch a fit; if you give in, then the next time that child wants something and you say no, they're just going to scream and moan longer and louder until again, you give in, because now they know you will.

That's what children do, because when we're young our entire worlds revolve around ourselves.  Ideally, people grow out of this long before adolescence...but if the parent keeps allowing it, the behavior just continues to persist, growing more and more unmanageable with every outburst.

By caving to the demands of these "Retakers" in what is one of the most highly-publicized and widely-acknowledged fanbase meltdowns in recent years, Bioware is effectively saying "make enough noise and you get what you want".
Sometimes saying no is the best thing in the long run, even if it's difficult, and in a world where every generation is empirically documented as being more self-involved, egotistical and unfoundedly entitled than the last, someone has to put their damn foot down, even on something as trivial as a video game.

So, there you go.  I'm saying that people investing themselves in this Retake Mass Effect B.S. are acting like children.  Children who hide behind charity as a shield to deflect condemnation and who trot out faux-military mantras ("hold the line!") that they continue to reflexively parrot at every opportunity long after its meaning has been worn to a nub.

Bioware has the chance to take the hard line and stick to their guns, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen...and that's just going to make it harder for the next target in line to do any differently when the Footstomper Brigade has gotten what they wanted from this debacle and moved on.

[InvincibleHero]

AlanC9 wrote...

I miss the good old days when everyone on the BSN thought that designing a game to please lots of people was a bad thing, and Bio should just stick to their vision instead.

Now Alan I am sure you realize that is only the case when their own personal vision matches BW's.  

[Oni Changas]

Don't mind Moriarty. He's a dumb*ss apologist. The guy called the people who discovered Sony's lack of PS2 backwards compatibility on the PS3 could be rectified by a simple software add-on and Sony's dismissal of the YLOD entitled whiners.

[Gigamantis]

Salis777 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Giving in to fans trying to stilt or change their creative process is just as bad as giving into anyone on the corporate level.  Uncreative people shouldn't force their way into the creative process.  You weren't hired to write this game and I certainly don't want you influencing how it's written.  I didn't buy this to experience your version of the Mass Effect world, I wanted theirs. 

I'm alright with the DLC if they charge you for it, but giving it to you for free would just validate your detrimental opinion that you should be in control of this game creatively.  

Again I didn't buy it.

The _consumers_ are not trying to CHANGE the creative process they are saying the creative process FAILED.  No one is asking for a group of fans (consumers) to be installed in the Edmonton office to oversee their writing team.

What they are asking for is for a new creative process to fix the problems caused by the last one, which FAILED in their opinion.  From a business point of view they are sure to react to it, and why not?  Consumer feedback is the basis of any sector of business in the world.

What you're trying to claim here is constructive feedback, and what's actually happening is the most trollish ******-fest ever conceived.  From the user review bombings to the threats of legal action for "false advertising" the user base has been a complete joke, and is obviously just attempting to muscle in on the creative process. 

There's no failure of the creative process being proven or even rationally discussed.  This is just a childish attempt to extort the company by scaring off potential new fans with gross exaggerations and flat out lies.  You people getting your way here would be a failure in the creative process. 

I see 58 pages of constructive feedback on the forum below.  I dont see you avoiding much of the trolling ******-fest either tbh.  Ignore the extremes at each side of the argument, there are plenty. 

But it's apparent EA/BW are concerned that people are unhappy with their product, regardless of what you think.  And a consumer does not have to 'prove' a failure of the creative process, its an opinion they hold.  Just like the ones all over your post.

I think you're vastly overblowing a normal (in most industries anyway) business situation.  And using a lot of generalizations about something you have little information on.  Leave EA to decide, its a business decision not a creative one.

This is a creative industry and anything that compromises that is a BAD THING.  You seem to hate when share-holders and bean counters make decisions that would compromise the creative integrity of a game, but "blah blah business" is fine when it's equally creatively impotent people espousing your opinions? 

I'll repeat, I don't want Bioware game's being influenced by you or anyone like you.  Differing to uncreative and untalented people for business reasons is a slippery slope. 

[Salis777]

You make it sound like its bad business for them to fix things for disgruntled clients? This isn't a kid we're talking about its a corporation, with very well paid and intelligent people running a wide variety of departments. Believe me they can handle this, and see it regularly (EA anyway). If clients dislike something it is not a precendent if you change it. EVERY business in the world does it. A lot.

People seem to think gaming is different for some reason. Shrug.

[IST]

Gigamantis wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Giving in to fans trying to stilt or change their creative process is just as bad as giving into anyone on the corporate level.  Uncreative people shouldn't force their way into the creative process.  You weren't hired to write this game and I certainly don't want you influencing how it's written.  I didn't buy this to experience your version of the Mass Effect world, I wanted theirs. 

I'm alright with the DLC if they charge you for it, but giving it to you for free would just validate your detrimental opinion that you should be in control of this game creatively.  

Again I didn't buy it.

The _consumers_ are not trying to CHANGE the creative process they are saying the creative process FAILED.  No one is asking for a group of fans (consumers) to be installed in the Edmonton office to oversee their writing team.

What they are asking for is for a new creative process to fix the problems caused by the last one, which FAILED in their opinion.  From a business point of view they are sure to react to it, and why not?  Consumer feedback is the basis of any sector of business in the world.

What you're trying to claim here is constructive feedback, and what's actually happening is the most trollish ******-fest ever conceived.  From the user review bombings to the threats of legal action for "false advertising" the user base has been a complete joke, and is obviously just attempting to muscle in on the creative process. 

There's no failure of the creative process being proven or even rationally discussed.  This is just a childish attempt to extort the company by scaring off potential new fans with gross exaggerations and flat out lies.  You people getting your way here would be a failure in the creative process. 

You People?

WHAT THE HELL YOU MEAN YOU PEOPLE???

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

He's right imo.

You can now commence the flaming of my opinion.

[chance52]

I am a full time artist. When I have my work hanging in a gallery for viewing/sales I hear a lot of feedback. People buy my work as is, they don't buy it and then ask me to make changes so that it's more to their tastes. And if they did I admit I would likely tell them 'no' and be offended enough to try and get the gallery to refuse the sale to that patron.

HOWEVER, I also take photographs and deal with editors for newspapers/magazines and they absolutely tell me what to shoot and what to change and what works and what will never see the light of day. If I blow a shoot you can bet I'll be told to do it again and I will do it again even if I think I nailed it the first time.

There is a gigantic difference between producing art to express oneself and producing art for commercial purposes.

[Gnaeus.Silvanus]

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

If you do that then you'll be a poor musician. 

[Salis777]

Gigamantis wrote...

This is a creative industry and anything that compromises that is a BAD THING.  You seem to hate when share-holders and bean counters make decisions that would compromise the creative integrity of a game, but "blah blah business" is fine when it's equally creatively impotent people espousing your opinions? 

I'll repeat, I don't want Bioware game's being influenced by you or anyone like you.  Differing to uncreative and untalented people for business reasons is a slippery slope. 

They sold out to EA, I beg to differ on all of your points.

It's great to have ideals for what SHOULD be going on, but its a business that put out a crappy product (consumer opinion).  Tough life, but they'll deal with it.

[nrcrane]

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

Ahh! But did you tell your fans that your new album would have 16 new tracks but in reality it was the same track just with slightly different tones in very end of each song?

[Exodus2000]

Obrusnine wrote...

http://www.ign.com/v...erous-precedent

Who else thinks Colin Moriarty is an idiot who obviously doesn't get the point?

I'm an artist myself, and honestly, if my fans said that they wanted changes to something they weren't satisfied with, I would respect their opinion as long as it was justified. In the case of Mass Effect 3, it is perfectly justified.

Seriously, who does this guy think he is? He "lost respect for" Bioware because they saw what was wrong with their art? I don't get this guys logic.

Seriously, anyone who actually likes the ending just doesn't understand. The Ending completely conflicts with the series it belongs to, how and why would they like that? As an artist, I can see the errors, and if I ever did anything remotely as bad as the ending of this game, I would hope my fans would tell me what I did wrong, especially with the respectful detail most of us have.

He calls us the vocal minority? I'm not sure how that works, because the amount of people voting against the ending is pretty insane. Percentages don't usually vary, and if you counted in the rest of the purchasers that aren't aware any of this is going on, they would probably say the same things we are. Some people don't have the confidence to be vocal, because we do suddenly our opinions don't mean anything? That our opinions are wrong? That our ability to change the art we experience is a bad thing?

This isn't dangerous, it's justice in it's best form. It's also co-operation between developer and fanbase to make all future things they produce better.

I don't see why people like this guy don't realize that.

What do you all think?

So it BW really gona release a new ending patch/DLC?

[Salis777]

chance52 wrote...

I am a full time artist. When I have my work hanging in a gallery for viewing/sales I hear a lot of feedback. People buy my work as is, they don't buy it and then ask me to make changes so that it's more to their tastes. And if they did I admit I would likely tell them 'no' and be offended enough to try and get the gallery to refuse the sale to that patron.

HOWEVER, I also take photographs and deal with editors for newspapers/magazines and they absolutely tell me what to shoot and what to change and what works and what will never see the light of day. If I blow a shoot you can bet I'll be told to do it again and I will do it again even if I think I nailed it the first time.

There is a gigantic difference between producing art to express oneself and producing art for commercial purposes.

Yes, especially in a corporation.  I'd love to see Bioware independant, they probably wouldn't have done this.  But they are, and they did.  So now they get to deal with it.

[SupR G]

The PLC wrote...

If I released an album with my music, and my so called 'fans' started to yell at me to change the last few tracks, I would just tell them to **** off. Really. You din't like my album? Fine, sell it. Give it away. Burn it, I don't care. But don't you dare tell me how to do my stuff.

Okay, well George Lucas did the opposite. Nobody wanted his films (art) to be changed, but he did it anyway because he didn't personally like some of the scenes. And comparing this to music is a terrible example, given that people remix songs about 1000 times, and many artists remake or change lyrics constantly with other artists (think Drake, Jay-Z) Art is not final, and can always be changed, improved, modified, essentially remaining as art. Artists are only limited by their tools, i.e. films are harder to change then say, a video game that constantly releases DLC. Think book revisions too. I can go on and on.

Modifié par SupR G, 22 mars 2012 - 02:34 .