418 réponses à ce sujet

[Tequila Man]

Justin2k wrote...

Sorry but you guys saying it's all been civil and nice haven't been reading properly.

You are blinkered. You don't like ending and want to "retake" or whatever. Someone else feels the same. You don't disagree so you don't notice. But as above, people who like the game have been told to commit suicide. Moderators have had death threats.

Even in this very thread people have said "well i wouldn't death threat, but they deserve it for spoiling the game" and you guys overlook it.

It's an awful community, where the community manager can't even come here anymore because of the abuse. You see it as persistance or holding a line, but step back and re-read, it's abuse.

So, not only can we not demand anything, but now we're abusive?

Wow. I need to invest in EA just to make demands, I guess.

Modifié par Tequila Man, 22 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[Coolfaec]

Death Threats? Visibly Upset? Somebody call the hyperbole police. What really bothers me is that you assume that they're "Visibly Upset" even though you can't even see them.

I am sure that 99% of the people in the movement agree when I say that we are not trying to personally attack individual Bioware employees. If you want to get mad at somebody, get mad at the individuals who actually attacked Bioware employees, or better yet; get mad at the executives that are hiding behind these employees. Most people are here because they invested years of life in a video game series, and were completely 1up'ed in the end, even though Bioware promised that they wouldn't 1up anyone.

I also have to disagree with you when you say that everyone participating in the movement is "Self-entitled." That's a very generalized and biased statement, and works against the point you're trying to make. Bioware promised to deliver ending that provided closure, and were influenced by choices in the game. However, it doesn't even appear that they even tried to deliver any of the promises about the game they have made. In fact, the ending ended up being something they specifically, and very clearly said wasn't going to be the end product.

You claim that Bioware "Bended backwards" trying to "Appease" us by giving us what we were promised in the beginning. Though if Bioware really bended backwards trying to appease us, they would have delevered on the promises they have made since day 1, offer a solution, or at least genuinally say that they are sorry without all of the cryptic business junk.

I understand that you are upset, but by attacking an entire community, you are becoming the very thing you are fighting against. I hope that you can read my post and understand why you and many other people, including myself are so angry about this whole disaster.

[Johcande XX]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Silent Rage wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Silent Rage wrote...

I don't agree with stuff like death threats but while i'm not personally doing it I enjoy watching bioware get bashed. They lied about the game (Casey Hudson anyway) and I don't feel sorry for them at all.

So they lied about 0.1% of the game. What does it make us to forget the rest of the 99.9% and bash them just for that one bit?

Yup and that 0.1% managed to ruin the entire game and replay value. Amazing isnt it? I ejnoy watching them be bashed because they flat out lied to get everyones money while knowing their ending was horse manure. I don't feel sorry for them and they don't get my sympathy.

Oh come on, do you go out and bash other developers who have done worse in their sequels? Do you ask people who ruined entire 99.9% of the game to go and redo it?

I understand the gut reaction in these situations is to say "Serves them right" . But honestly, if we really think about it, what we are doing is pretty unreasonable.

Yes, my knee-jerk reaction is to say that, there were entire forums/communities that were WAY more graphic and violent who argued for George to REDO the Star Wars prequels, because they in essence screwed the whole mythos.  They hounded, and continue to never let him live it down, that he just gave up and has now said he's done with big-budget movies. 

And also, yes.  Harassing someone who works on a team that may have made a mistake with a game franchise is a little unreasonable and I don't really get any enjoyment out of it, . . . but I also don't like being marginalized and called an entitled child, once they said that I lost my sympathy.   

And just as an after thought, everyone saying that what was said to Jessica was devastating to her,  Really?  Is this her first job in an internet PR dept.?  I'm just a regular guy on the internet, and I've racked up WAY more death threats than that, also more graphic.  

[Rockpopple]

And apparently you don't know what "personal attack" means, Tequila Man. But why should I be surprised? People not reading what others write, or not taking the few seconds of thinking to understand? That's almost a requirement to be a part of this community, nowadays.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Of course! You can do anything really. BUT, you have to ask yourself if you can live with double standards. In your case, an extreme attacking approach for those who did small mistakes in games while relatively nicer treatment for those botch up entire games.

I think most of us would not be comfortable with having double standards like that though.

It's not a double standard, unless the principle is applied inconsistently.

In this case, we have people asking for a new ending to an experience they otherwise loved from a developer they love.

[ninjaNumber1]

Atmospeer wrote...

We are giving them the chance to make up for, what we see as, their mistake. If the whole game was terrible, it would be given terrible reviews, fans in general would lose faith in the company. Such irrecoverable damage would severely damage the confidence of consumers in future BioWare titles, cutting into their profits.

So you see, they're not being "let off the hook", they're just suffering for their mistake in a different way.

You are not answering the question though.

Is it not a double standard or even an unfair standard to pester the one who makes a small mistake with such a lot of negative publicity and demands while the one who makes big mistakes and screws up ENTIRE games are simply left alone?

[Tequila Man]

How is calling this community horrendous not a personal attack against every single one of us?

"You all suck."
"I take that personally."
"No, you don't."

[ninjaNumber1]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Of course! You can do anything really. BUT, you have to ask yourself if you can live with double standards. In your case, an extreme attacking approach for those who did small mistakes in games while relatively nicer treatment for those botch up entire games.

I think most of us would not be comfortable with having double standards like that though.

It's not a double standard, unless the principle is applied inconsistently.

In this case, we have people asking for a new ending to an experience they otherwise loved from a developer they love.

And the principle is inconsistent because you want to go after developers who make 1% mistakes in their games but not after those who botch up the entire game.

[antony1197]

Justin2k wrote...

Sorry but you guys saying it's all been civil and nice haven't been reading properly.

You are blinkered. You don't like ending and want to "retake" or whatever. Someone else feels the same. You don't disagree so you don't notice. But as above, people who like the game have been told to commit suicide. Moderators have had death threats.

Even in this very thread people have said "well i wouldn't death threat, but they deserve it for spoiling the game" and you guys overlook it.

It's an awful community, where the community manager can't even come here anymore because of the abuse. You see it as persistance or holding a line, but step back and re-read, it's abuse.

So they can lie to us? They can bull**** for almost a year and then leave us with this? We have right to critisize if they cant deal with that then they shouldnt be a part of a company.

[Rockpopple]

Justin2k wrote...

Sorry but you guys saying it's all been civil and nice haven't been reading properly.

You are blinkered. You don't like ending and want to "retake" or whatever. Someone else feels the same. You don't disagree so you don't notice. But as above, people who like the game have been told to commit suicide. Moderators have had death threats.

Even in this very thread people have said "well i wouldn't death threat, but they deserve it for spoiling the game" and you guys overlook it.

It's an awful community, where the community manager can't even come here anymore because of the abuse. You see it as persistance or holding a line, but step back and re-read, it's abuse.

If I could turn this into a signature, I would. Quoted for ****ing truth.

Look at anthony, fighting for the right to tell others to kill themselves, or give developers death threats, because he's butthurt over a game ending. ****ing pathetic.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 22 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[Tequila Man]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

We are giving them the chance to make up for, what we see as, their mistake. If the whole game was terrible, it would be given terrible reviews, fans in general would lose faith in the company. Such irrecoverable damage would severely damage the confidence of consumers in future BioWare titles, cutting into their profits.

So you see, they're not being "let off the hook", they're just suffering for their mistake in a different way.

You are not answering the question though.

Is it not a double standard or even an unfair standard to pester the one who makes a small mistake with such a lot of negative publicity and demands while the one who makes big mistakes and screws up ENTIRE games are simply left alone?

You're comparing a some crap game maker to someone we hold in higher regard. Would you not expect better work from a Ph.D student than a freshman?

[Gigerstreak]

People keep saying that we are using the charity as a shield. It's not like we used the money to hurt anyone. We took fan rage and made it constructive. We got a bunch of sick kids video games! The thing that makes them go hand in hand is simply... If we get them a game console and they play and love Mass Effect 1 and 2 it will help them feel better and fight their sickness. If we don't get that ending changed then they might play Mass Effect 3 and give up.

Modifié par Gigerstreak, 22 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[HenchxNarf]

Rockpopple wrote...

And apparently you don't know what "personal attack" means, Tequila Man. But why should I be surprised? People not reading what others write, or not taking the few seconds of thinking to understand? That's almost a requirement to be a part of this community, nowadays.

I think very few people actually read before they respond.

"OMG THEY THINK LIKE ME LEMME RESPOND!" without reading what the post is actually about.

[Zulufoxtrot]

There are trolls on both sides of the issue that use horrible language, horrible name calling, and act like horrible people. The Retake side has more of these, because the majority of the forums is on retakes side. If the majority were Anti-retake we'd see a lot more badly written, insulting, name calling topics talking about how great they are. There's no such thing as an internet forum where people won't do this, especially one that get's media attention. Trolls love attention.

[Qutayba]

I have seen some attacks - calls for firings, name-calling, and certainly plenty of trolling and flaming. You can't deny that they're there. Still it's a really hard balance to maintain.

BioWare deserves passionate criticism, and I mean that in both the positive and negative sense. They really dropped the ball on this one, and we need to let them know. But they are also a fantastic team and deserve to have fans that care enough about the story to want to see it changed. We know what BioWare can do, so we don't want to accept mediocrity.

I try to call out every Retake troll I see, and I notice many others doing the same. I regret the actions some have taken, but overall I'm proud at what is mostly passionate, but civil behavior. I think BioWare knows the difference.

[Vikali]

Justin2k wrote...

Sorry but you guys saying it's all been civil and nice haven't been reading properly.

You are blinkered. You don't like ending and want to "retake" or whatever. Someone else feels the same. You don't disagree so you don't notice. But as above, people who like the game have been told to commit suicide. Moderators have had death threats.

Even in this very thread people have said "well i wouldn't death threat, but they deserve it for spoiling the game" and you guys overlook it.

It's an awful community, where the community manager can't even come here anymore because of the abuse. You see it as persistance or holding a line, but step back and re-read, it's abuse.

[Baronesa]

So, Mr blanket statements... if this is such a terrible community all around, how can you explain threads like this one? http://social.biowar...ndex/10406908/1

Modifié par Baronesa, 22 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[Rockpopple]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

And apparently you don't know what "personal attack" means, Tequila Man. But why should I be surprised? People not reading what others write, or not taking the few seconds of thinking to understand? That's almost a requirement to be a part of this community, nowadays.

I think very few people actually read before they respond.

"OMG THEY THINK LIKE ME LEMME RESPOND!" without reading what the post is actually about.

Sad but so very, very true.

[Skirlasvoud]

Justin2k wrote...

Hate reading comments like "this community has been fantastic" and "yay we retook mass effect".

I didn't like the ending at all.  I didn't like the auto-dialogue.  I didn't like the multiplayer maps ruining the sidequests and i didn't like the new gay characters taking up more screen time than Ashley.

But I have never come on here and reduced Bioware staff to the point where they are visibly upset and refusing to come on the forums.  I have never tried to insist it is right for Bioware to give money to charity (which i'm sure they do).  I have never sworn at people who are just doing a job.

The crazy thing is, ME3 is a great game.  And you so called "fans" enjoyed 99.9% of 3 whole games.  It's just a video game, there are more important things in life.  What you've done to Jessica Merizan is wrong and you cannot call yourself a great community.  You are nothing more than trolls and spoilt gamers.  It's disgusting some of what you people have said to people who are bending over backwards to appease you and who in the end owe you absolutely nothing.  Get over it.

Sadly, every movement has its extremists. As a single member from retake, I would like to apologize for a darker, less civil side of the movement.


The point is however, that a corperation as big as EA/Bioware should be able to handle them, the same way presidents do. It is their chosen proffesion and they should be able to prepare for it.

They are the givers of a product, who have created a forum to gauge customer satisfaction and create brand loyalty . They play us masses and our emotions with advertisement and PR.

We are the consumers of their product, and we are are upset and expressing that dissatisfaction to the employees employed for that. We call bull**** on their advertisement and PR and are no longer so easily affected.


It's the way modern capitalism works.


Still, this individual likes to apologize for others not so refined.

[Empiro3]

HenchxNarf wrote...

I've had three death threats and one wish that I would commit suicide. I reported them and nothing happened.

But I hate that the movement side denies that they have people acting like this.

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not going to deny that there are jerks out there, but I still believe that 95%+ of the people here are mostly civil.

To whoever is doing crap like this: STOP IT. Seriously. What the hell makes you think it's OK to threathen others? You're not doing anyone any favors, and you're hurting the cause.

[Justin2k]

Lets be honest, I wouldn't blame Bioware if they turned around and said they were going to make text adventures for PC only.

And it would be you "fans" whining and crying about this. But really, would you want to make games for you lot? I don't get how you can call yourself fans with the spiteful and destructive way you go about getting what you want. You're certainly not fans of Jessica Merizan or Casey Hudson et al

[ninjaNumber1]

Tequila Man wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

We are giving them the chance to make up for, what we see as, their mistake. If the whole game was terrible, it would be given terrible reviews, fans in general would lose faith in the company. Such irrecoverable damage would severely damage the confidence of consumers in future BioWare titles, cutting into their profits.

So you see, they're not being "let off the hook", they're just suffering for their mistake in a different way.

You are not answering the question though.

Is it not a double standard or even an unfair standard to pester the one who makes a small mistake with such a lot of negative publicity and demands while the one who makes big mistakes and screws up ENTIRE games are simply left alone?

You're comparing a some crap game maker to someone we hold in higher regard. Would you not expect better work from a Ph.D student than a freshman?

Now you are brining in analogies that do not work. I am just asking in terms of what YOU actually DO.

Do you go out and ask people to redo games if they botched a sequel completely? The answer is NO, right?

So why would you go and ask someone who made a small mistake in their GAME to go and REDO the part the screwed up and give negative publicity over it?

You say you love Bioware but you are doing more harm to them than you would do those messed up Devs who give you retarded games.

[DonYourAviators]

Get out of here, Colin.

[xxskyshadowxx]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

There were a few people who went over the top, but most of the people I've seen just pointing out legitimate points in a civilized manner. If a game ruins an entire series we've had 5 years to come to love in 10 minutes, is it wrong for us to ask Bioware to do both itself, and the series justice? Should we just say "Hey, Bioware, great job on that ending even though I really didn't like it and it didn't fulfill what you would promise us!"

Customers have every right to tell a company they don't like the product. What we're doing is NOT just saying "Game sucked, moving on and never giving Bioware money again." We're giving them a chance to make this right and win our loyalty back. We are Bioware's allies in this debacle, not their enemies. However, that does NOT mean we're just going to accept something poorly done based on "artistic integrity".

No, it is not right to ask to redo the ending.

We are right to tell them "Hey, your game was great till that ending. That stuff was really bad"

But to then go and say "Do justice by your product, redo an ending" is too much. They gave you a great product. If the entire game had sucked from the begining, you probably wouldn't even care. The very fact that you care shows that ME3 was great. Just had a poor ending.

So you don't need to accept it. But you can't just demand an ending either. People seem to think its either accept or demand a change. There is also a middle-ground, just tell them what you think about the ending and move on.

If the company had not misled their consumers with multiple PR releases and interviews stating, not suggesting that the game would have the very ending elements people are now demanding, then no. No one should be demanding a do over. They could criticize the ending, and voice opinions on it, but asking for a different one would be unjustified.

However...

They did in multiple PR releases and interview statements state, not imply that the ending(s) would be the exact opposite of what consumers got (http://social.biowar.../index/10056886 for reference). Now those consumers are merely demanding what they paid for.

Gaming companies so far have gotten an easy ride, when it comes to claims that they make about their products. Bioware is not the first company to make multiple unfullfilled claims about their products, and consumers NEED to start speaking out every time. That's how capitalism works and thrives and it is our responsibility as consumers.

None of the clients I represent could get away with making unsubstantiated claims about their products and get away with it, even if minor. But gaming companies so far have been getting away with it, but as they become more mainstream, this will become less and less acceptable, so long as the consumers act like responsible consumers and call them on it. Bioware will hopefully learn from this what other more mainstream companies already know, "Don't promise what cannot be delivered." The rest of the gaming companies need to learn this as well.

If they want to make games to be "Their games," they can do that...keep it in house or give them away. But if they are making a product to sell to a consumer base, then they need to start acting responsibly when promoting that product.

[Erield]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Tequila Man wrote...

chris fenton wrote...

Yes, it has.
We shouldn't be demanding jack ****.
We should be asking.
Don't flame Bioware. (Although, the "endings will be vastly different" thing is a little... Uhm.. 

Why can't we demand?

Because it doesn't make sense. If someone screwed up the whole game, would you ask them redo the whole game?

Um... I certainly would complain and ask for a refund, yeah.  I would've paid $85 for a piece of **** and lies.

They only lied about the ending. The rest of the 99% was intact. Now you are still entitled for a refund. But you are not entitled for a new ending.

Yes, but we can still demand one. Is the Morality of Business Police coming to get me? As a consumer, I can shout all I want.

Of course! You can do anything really. BUT, you have to ask yourself if you can live with double standards. In your case, an extreme attacking approach for those who did small mistakes in games while relatively nicer treatment for those botch up entire games.

I think most of us would not be comfortable with having double standards like that though.

The bigger action doesn't necessarily have the bigger consequence.  What Mr. Tequila is saying is that the game was great, except for the end, and wishes Bioware would change it.  Bioware still has his money, and he's okay with that.  Company 2 made a game, and it was terrible--Tequila didn't bother throwing a fuss, or getting mad, or demanding anything other than his money back.  Company 2 does not have his money any more.