167 réponses à ce sujet

[danistrad]

Original? You can't be serious, OP.

[ValarMorghulis]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

When Bioware starts handing out these games for free, with no promises of content or quality, I will gladly join your argument. However, there have been tons of interviews where we were promised a satisfying conclusion based on our choices. This was not delivered. The whole "creative vision" argument is a cop-out.

Let me put this another way:

I work at a car dealership. If a customer comes in and tells me they are thinking about a car and I tell them I can get them one with Bluetooth phone capabilities, music streaming, navigation, chrome wheels, etc. I am fully responsible for delivering on those promises. I can't, at the last minute, say "Hey folks, I know I promised to get you all those things, but I decided you would be happier with a car that didn't have ANY of those things!" I would be sued and my company's image would be tarnished.

Like it or not, Bioware is a company that sells a product to a consumer base. They are not an art studio. All companies should be held to their word when making promises on products they intend to sell for profit.

Fortunately for them, they have the ability to fix their mistakes. And yes, this is a mistake. You can say whatever you want about artistic integrity, but in the end we simply want what was promised.

Modifié par ValarMorghulis, 22 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[lokiarchetype]

Then you're being melodramatic.

[mumwaldee369]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

Maybe they won't start writing crappy endings so they can sell us DLC later.  Maybe they'll only promise what they can deliver.  Maybe it'll improve games!  

[Paragon Fury]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

Bull.

They made the ending they wanted to.

We told them it sucks, and explained very thoroughly why it sucks and why they shouldn't have done it.

Video games, being the medium they are, allow them to fix this.

No infringement on "creative freedom" at all.

[nevar00]

Oh brother.

If by "creative freedom" you mean plot holes and dues ex machinas then yes, we damn sure should stomp that **** out.

We were told our choices would matter in the end, and that there would be 16 different endings. Both were lies (among others). But god forbid people complain about that!

And how about that DLC add: take that out while you're at it. That just felt like a slap in the face.



BTW any "art" that is made primarily for profit should be shaped by how the buyers would like it considering we're making the purchase here.  

Modifié par nevar00, 22 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[SimKoning]

Is Alien 3 still art? What about the Abyss? Or Aliens? Those are movies that executives FORCED changes on against the wishes of the creator/writer/director for the sake of $$$. What about all the "special editions" of movies with alternate endings? Why would a game suddenly become non art simply because they are listening to fan feedback about the massive plot holes and absurd space miracles?

Modifié par SimKoning, 22 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[chkchkchk]

All these people talking about creative freedom need to recognize that there are many kinds of art.

chkchkchk wrote...

With an artist-audience relationship so intimate, it's only natural that the audience will be moved strongly. All the anger and passion we're seeing is a direct result of this. The outcry is exactly what Bioware should have foreseen, because it is exactly the kind of passion they set out to cultivate. You cannot draw the audience in so deeply and not expect to get a reaction. Saying "it's just a videogame" is silly. A painting is just a colour on canvas, yet people go to art school and write books about it. It's good to experience, create, and think about art.

The Mass Effect trilogy isn't the private work of a hermit who lived and died without ever showcasing his work. The Mass Effect trilogy is a unique work of participatory art, and in this kind of art the relationship between artist and audience is as intimate as you can get. It is a step below collaboration. Everyone becomes invested in what's created. It's only natural, because it is the whole point.

To say that changing, altering, or expanding on the "current endings" is some kind of affront to "artistic integrity" doesn't hold water. You cannot pull the audience so deeply into something and then expect them to have no emotional investment. That emotional investment was the whole point. It's too late to pretend Mass Effect is the result of a singular vision crafted in isolation. Even within Bioware you cannot claim Person X or Person Y is the visionary behind Mass Effect. And to say that none of these talented people were influenced by the audience is silly. They take careful note of our opinions and playing styles, the same way musicians in jam session or actors in an improv group take cues from each other. (We're a step down from that level of collaboration, but you take my point.)

People are trying to compare this to a reader asking a writer to change her novel, or a gallery-goer demanding a painting be altered. This is nothing like that. Audience participation has been a factor throughout the development of Mass Effect. It's too late to pretend this isn't the case. With intimacy comes responsibility.

BUT! This does not mean anyone "owes" anyone anything, or that we need to be hateful towards each other. The artist is welcome to ignore the audience, but the artist should be prepared to accept the fallout. Art is not safe, especially when this many people are involved. "Authorial intent" is not sacred law, and it certainly has no place in something that asks the audience to identify with and "roleplay" the protagonist over the course of a 100+ hour narrative. The passion here speaks for itself. There is no "wrong" reaction to art.

P.S. There's no use debating "Is this art?" We cannot deny that the process involved is a creative one.
P.P.S. Bioware is hands-down my favourite videogame developer. I'm not "hating". I wouldn't be here if I was.
P.S.P.P.S.S.

Modifié par chkchkchk, 22 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[Coolfaec]

Wow, aren't we dramatic?

The same thing happened with Fallout 3, and I loved the ending in the first place.

Creative freedom survived back then, and will continue to survive. Hopefully companies will avoid lying about their games in the future though.

Modifié par Coolfaec, 22 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sorry, but deus ex machina is the opposite of creative.

Then you don't see ET or the Wizard of OZ as creative works?

LOL I'd love to give Shepard red ruby slippers right now!

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 22 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[Zix13]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sorry, but deus ex machina is the opposite of creative.

Poor argument, the deus ex machina was on mars when the crucible was revealed. There was no way to avoid one in this game.

[RaptorZefier]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters..

You're mixing up Originality with Poor Quality, which is as it should be. 

[mumwaldee369]

Art doesn't come with a EULA.

[Lukanp]

The reason the ending is being criticized is because it was a mess, theres no hidden agenda at all. It has nothing to do with how creative it was. In fact, I think most gamers would welcome a truly original idea as a basis for the ending. Just look what Black Isle did with Planescape Torment, last I checked that game was universally loved, despite it's difficult content.

[mumwaldee369]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sorry, but deus ex machina is the opposite of creative.

Then you don't see ET or the Wizard of OZ as creative works?

In the book, the slippers were silver. 

[GhengisTom]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

You can call it the end of creative freedom if you like. That doesn't make it true. If everyone who wrote a story/book/show/movie/game decided they were going to throw in out-of-nowhere or nonsensical endings people would stop paying attention.

"And so Hero-X saved the world! But then a blue monster came out of nowhere and destroyed the universe! The End!"

Yes, there is art to the whole deal, but when this many fans were completely shocked/upset/caught off guard by the ending that they sprung on us then they must know something went wrong.

[tomcplotts]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sorry, but deus ex machina is the opposite of creative.

Then you don't see ET or the Wizard of OZ as creative works?

LOL I'd love to give Shepard red ruby slippers right now!

The poor alien allies are certainly going to need ETs magic bicycle to get home, now...

[Kishala]

People have been using the "Artistic freedom" argument in defense of the endings without realizing a key point. Bioware has stated that they "co-created" Mass Effect 3 with the fans. If they co-created the game with us and we are unhappy with something, logic dictates that they should change it. Artistic freedom isn't at issue here. The "Art" in this case belongs to both Bioware and the fans, per their own words.

[Vaktathi]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

There wasn't a whole lot original about the ending. Half of it was a virtual re-skin of the endign to DeusEx 12 years ago, same exact 3 choices, Control AI/Destroy AI/Merge with AI, same Red/Blue/Green color codings.



Additionally, Video games as art are Art as a Product. The art is there to satisfy a demand. If the art fails to satisfy the demand, it fails as art as well. 

[xxLDZxx]

We have wall hugging, 3rd person shooting, all mini games are out of me3, you don't need tech skills to open crates and so on.
Nothing brilliant or outstanding.

The creativity is long gone.
ME3 is on the generic shooter path.


This is no book,move,FPS.
nobody is cutting the last page out.
you like/understand the ending you keep it.
Who doesn't get a new one that he likes/understands.


When something is learned from this is that you don't give the player choice in your RPG/game and railroad him fro the beginning or you predict every possible of action and prepare your game to it.

This is no Picture or book or movie, no sculpture.
This is living art, evolving around the users.
Not dead and static.

If this would be a Novel or a Movie you would be right but it its not.
 
I have chosen how the story was developing, I am choosing how it ends.
Don't like it as a artist?
Then don't give me a choice.

Modifié par xxLDZxx, 22 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[aliengmr1]

You have to be creative in the first place.

Realize this: what you are afraid of has ALREADY happened. Big news I know. Proof you say?

Console games. need I say more? MS and Sony have chipping away at the BS you call artistic freedom for years. Where have you been? "Hey they like this Call of Duty." "YAY! lets release one per year."

Hate to break it to you, Original thinking died in the 90's.


Sorry guys not trying to rag on console gamers

[JELLAQTP]

This is not even the first time that an ending is going to be revisited. Creative freedom didn´t died then and will not die now. They don´t even have to touch their idea (that they have changed from the original one) but at least close plot holes and give other options to end.

Sadly I disagree about the ending being original. It was incredible and risky until the starchild. I would say that Anderson and Shepard dying while the crucible fired, could be a more risky ending. Maybe the final ideas where interesting, but they are disconnected from the ME world. You can play the ending without playing ME and it will work the same way.

By the way, people where asking for a change to the Red Dead Redemption game? Because that is a really sad ending. And it was great and totally into the world.

[Maria Caliban]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sorry, but deus ex machina is the opposite of creative.

Then you don't see ET or the Wizard of OZ as creative works?

In the book, the slippers were silver.

I read all the OZ books, but it was so long ago that I've forgotten a great deal of it. Including that.

[Tyrzun]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

Right, defending unethical behavior in the name of art. 

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”

^ That's unestical considering what we got.

Simple example for you. 

You go to store and buy a box that says Blu-Ray player inside, the sales person says it's the best Blu-Ray player we ever made.  They take your money and you go home.  You got home and open the box.  Inside is a CD player.

You go back to the store and complain about being tricked and false advertising.  The store says they felt like giving you something else and wanted their artistic freedom.

Then this customer next to you goes, don't give in store!  You have the right to false advertise and give them whatever you want! <---- That's you eye basher

[Egonne]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

The problem with that Bioware ticked off TOO many people:

You had people that didn't like the unhappy ending.
You had people that didn't like the lack of variety.
You had people that didn't like the lack of closure.
You had people that didn't like the plot holes.
You had people that didn't like the lack of boss fight (Maurader Shields excluded).
You had people that didn't like the uselessness of the war assets.


Honestly, I doubt any ONE of these groups would have been strong enough to overturn the endings.  Had the game offers us closure and a lot of choices and a boss fight there would have been fewer people upset, and hence possibly nothing would have changed.

Not the end of creative freedom.  Just a reminder that if you want your creative freedom to SELL then don't do too many OTHER things wrong.