167 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkBladeX98]

Don't even try.
You know that was a sad job to conclude the three games in three colors.
Don't call it artistic freedom if the artist only uses crayons.

[Ultra Prism]

if games are art, then look at COD and tell me it is such innovative earth then I dont have anything to say

[Lexagg]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

"Creative freedom" is not an excuse to lie to customers and sell unfinished or bad product.
 If end of creative integrity means we will get HONEST developers who provide GOOD product - good riddance.

[Shock n Awe]

Producing a product for the purchase and consumption of others means your work is no longer pure art. You have a consumer to please, and if you do not, then your business fails.

BioWare failed to please the consumer. Games can be original and highly praised - look at the rest of Mass Effect - and indeed enjoyed. When that game splits from its basic premises in the last seconds to introduce new elements which contradict proven canon, cause plotholes, and essentially don't fit in the rest of the universe, a certain amount of disappointment is to be expected.

Capitalism.

[Kai212]

Let's sink this thread already.

[Scia52]

 Oh no devs will have to avoid plotholes and bad writing!!!

The horror!!!

[Oxy Clean]

elitesalt wrote...

THE SKY IS FALLING

how dare bioware have the audacity to give their consumers what they want

This.

[McScroggz24]

Without spoilers, Fallout 3 changed the ending because of a plothole, and especially because they wanted to release content for after the ending. Both can be applied here, but it's like fitting a triangle peg in a circular hole. It fits but it's not right.

[TheRisenStar]

Oh come now...

Creative freedom is not threatened by consumers feeling chafed by a hastily thrown together ending whose chief guides were "Brave New World", "End of First matrix" and "Lots of Speculation from everyone!!!"

It's like the "Creative Freedom" defenders didn't see the "ending" sheet from The Final Hours app. It erodes any notion that what we got was deep, reflective, artistic, or well considered.

[Vhalkyrie]

Tyrzun wrote...

The funny thing is "Bioware" is being treated like an artist, like one person. Which is totally illogical.

FYI OP Mass Effects creative freedom was ALREADY taken away by Bioware. The CREATOR of the Mass Effect universe is Drew Karpysyn. HE was moved off of the project by BIOWARE after ME 2. They took away his ART from HIM! So, if you REALLY cared about artistic freedom you would be angry with Bioware and defending Drew!

So, which is it? Defend artistic freedom or not?

According to Wikipedia, he retired.

http://en.wikipedia..../Drew_Karpyshyn

This explains a lot, actually.  With the departure of Drew Karpyshyn and Brent Knowles, the people who made the type of Bioware RPGs I liked are gone.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 22 mars 2012 - 02:52 .

[darthnick427]

Billabong2011 wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...

As long as they make good endings instead of our current crap they can make whatever they want

Ahh, nick, you've finally seen our side of things? 
I know you didn't like the Normandy bit before, but I thought you were 'ok' with the red, blue, green ending thing? 

Oh hell no.....I fully support the indoctrination theory now or anything better than this crap...Starchild needs to get the hell out. lol The more I thought about the endings the more I hate them.

[Zofiya]

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

Mass Effect itself proves this argument wrong. Mass Effect was a creative risk, and it was massively successful until the last few minutes -- the fact that so many people are upset enough to do something about it instead of just toss the game and play something else proves how much people care about the game, the world, and the characters. No one is here because we hate Mass Effect; we are here because we love Mass Effect.

Not to mention, this entire debacle could probably have been avoided with a little more development time and more rigorous focus/beta testing.

[Torrible]

Say hello to future "Warden killing Archdemon and talking to companions in a small room thereafter" endings.

[aliengmr1]

TheRisenStar wrote...

Oh come now...

Creative freedom is not threatened by consumers feeling chafed by a hastily thrown together ending whose chief guides were "Brave New World", "End of First matrix" and "Lots of Speculation from everyone!!!"

It's like the "Creative Freedom" defenders didn't see the "ending" sheet from The Final Hours app. It erodes any notion that what we got was deep, reflective, artistic, or well considered.

This^

This is why the ending is bad. Bioware clearly didn't do the best job they could have. The finale of a trilogy is not the time to start expirimenting with the story. I think they know this is the case, which is why they are considering doing something.

Its our duty to challenge Bioware and not let half-assed garbage pass for an ending.

[Oakenshield1]

So would you rather BioWare win and kill consumer rights in the video game world?

[Doppelgaenger]

chkchkchk wrote...

All these people talking about creative freedom need to recognize that there are many kinds of art.

chkchkchk wrote...

With an artist-audience relationship so intimate, it's only natural that the audience will be moved strongly. All the anger and passion we're seeing is a direct result of this. The outcry is exactly what Bioware should have foreseen, because it is exactly the kind of passion they set out to cultivate. You cannot draw the audience in so deeply and not expect to get a reaction. Saying "it's just a videogame" is silly. A painting is just a colour on canvas, yet people go to art school and write books about it. It's good to experience, create, and think about art.

The Mass Effect trilogy isn't the private work of a hermit who lived and died without ever showcasing his work. The Mass Effect trilogy is a unique work of participatory art, and in this kind of art the relationship between artist and audience is as intimate as you can get. It is a step below collaboration. Everyone becomes invested in what's created. It's only natural, because it is the whole point.

To say that changing, altering, or expanding on the "current endings" is some kind of affront to "artistic integrity" doesn't hold water. You cannot pull the audience so deeply into something and then expect them to have no emotional investment. That emotional investment was the whole point. It's too late to pretend Mass Effect is the result of a singular vision crafted in isolation. Even within Bioware you cannot claim Person X or Person Y is the visionary behind Mass Effect. And to say that none of these talented people were influenced by the audience is silly. They take careful note of our opinions and playing styles, the same way musicians in jam session or actors in an improv group take cues from each other. (We're a step down from that level of collaboration, but you take my point.)

People are trying to compare this to a reader asking a writer to change her novel, or a gallery-goer demanding a painting be altered. This is nothing like that. Audience participation has been a factor throughout the development of Mass Effect. It's too late to pretend this isn't the case. With intimacy comes responsibility.

BUT! This does not mean anyone "owes" anyone anything, or that we need to be hateful towards each other. The artist is welcome to ignore the audience, but the artist should be prepared to accept the fallout. Art is not safe, especially when this many people are involved. "Authorial intent" is not sacred law, and it certainly has no place in something that asks the audience to identify with and "roleplay" the protagonist over the course of a 100+ hour narrative. The passion here speaks for itself. There is no "wrong" reaction to art.

P.S. There's no use debating "Is this art?" We cannot deny that the process involved is a creative one.
P.P.S. Bioware is hands-down my favourite videogame developer. I'm not "hating". I wouldn't be here if I was.
P.S.P.P.S.S.

Mostly this.

[Safoulan]

aristaea wrote...

eye basher wrote...

No longer will game companys try to be original when there always scared of the haters.Good bye originality hello generic gaming where all games start the same and end the same unoriginal and uninspired it's cater to the hater time.

Mass Effect itself proves this argument wrong. Mass Effect was a creative risk, and it was massively successful until the last few minutes -- the fact that so many people are upset enough to do something about it instead of just toss the game and play something else proves how much people care about the game, the world, and the characters. No one is here because we hate Mass Effect; we are here because we love Mass Effect.

Not to mention, this entire debacle could probably have been avoided with a little more development time and more rigorous focus/beta testing.

Agree w/Eye Basher's statements.

Pandoring & Blatant Catering is already quite prevalent across many entertainment mediums.
More often than not it has come from Producers, Writers, & Network Execs who lack originality, live in fear of bad ratings/reviews, & are always on the lookout for yet another sequel in a suppossedly successful franchise.

On the whole, players/viewers often show that they have better 'taste' than the people with their hands on the switch when it comes to pieces of entertainment.

Whether BioWare Intended a deceptive ending & will soon announce that fact (seems less & less likely)
or they simply provide additional/modified ending(s) based on the rec's of their fanbase, they are effectively
changing the game.

To Quote Moneyball:
"I know you've taken it in the teeth out there, but the first guy through the wall always gets bloody, always. It's threatening not just a way of doing business, but in their minds it's threatening the game. Really what it's threatening is their livelihoods, it's threatening their jobs, it's threatening the way that they do things. And every time that happens, whether it's the government or a way of doing business or whatever it is, the people who are holding the reins, have their hands on the switch, they go bat **** crazy. I mean, anybody who's not tearing down their team right now and rebuilding it using your model, they're dinosaurs. They'll have their ass on the sofa in October, watching the Boston Red Sox win the World Series."

This scenario isn't destroying creative freedom, it's changing the game.
There will always be Game Companies that pander, cater, and ruin their own work... and then there's BioWare.
A cut above the rest & perfectly willing (see press releases/statements) to admit when they've made a mistake.

Hear Hear!

[IBPROFEN]

Ultra Prism wrote...

if games are art, then look at COD and tell me it is such innovative earth then I dont have anything to say

 Not sure about art and COD. Call of Duty and CoD unitied offensive the 1st game and expandtion was more a history session. It was pretty much correct with history for its time period.