474 réponses à ce sujet

[ket_shee]

Rob, let me preface by saying I respect you and your character (usually). And I would also add I'm very proud of the civil-parts of the Retake movement and their accomplishments.

That said, I find your 'analysis' lacking.

First, you play your credentials well (I read the original version of your post) and establish yourself as an editor, a student, and an active employee in literary analsyis. But you did so without providing any evidence of your work. Thesis papers, research papers, commentaries, articles, generally proof of your prowress that would easily fit into a resume. The lack of this evidence only brings up questions to what KIND of editor, student, and active employee in literary analysis you are. For example we can say that I am a journalist. But then if you find out I'm actually Jim Sterling, how far does my credit as a journalist carry me?

Second, you explain Ray's messages fine; just in more words. Why do I need to read 3-4 extra paragraphs of jargon you never explain for a layman to understand, as if assuming they hold doctrates? Even Highschool English students know how to identify their audience. Ray's message is fairly easy to interpret without additional analysis, in fact the entire message could be conveyed as "just coverin' my ass, yo."

Third, your objectivity is questionable. Your choice of words really highlights this, especially when you stress words like irrational.  In fact, the same 'tactics' you criticize Ray for using are then mimicked by the critic. His argument is irrational, ergo you are projecting your dominance by pointing it out.

And fourth, your argument is unnecessary. Ray responds to the ending controversy is basically just Ray responding to the ending controversy. As you clearly outlined in your argument, words are cheap until we see some real action. But we haven't seen some real action, so why waste time analyzing cheap words?

Not intended as a bash or an offense. Merely criticism, which you should be used to as you are a literary student. Hold the Line.

Modifié par ket_shee, 22 mars 2012 - 06:08 .

[Tyrzun]

Hudathan wrote...

Tyrzun wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

What if Ray Muzyka simply disagrees with people who hate the ending but is of course willing to come up with something so that both sides can be happy? Remember, not everyone feels the same way about the game and its ending. As the CEO of Bioware, Muzyka does not wish to alienate any player if at all possible. But there are people out there who hate the ending and would not settle for anything less than getting their way and there is just not much anyone can do about that.

You're missing the point.

It's not about liking the ending.

It's about an incomplete product.

Do you demand proof from meor will you just believe multiple developers promised us the end would be almost exactly the opposite of what it is?  We were mislead. 

Don't trust me, just read the link below.  I don't want to post it all again.

http://social.biowar.../index/10056886

For the record, again.  I thought the incomplete ending was brilliant!  Warning your players for 3 games how indoctrination happens, then giving them bells and whistles warning them it's happeneing, and they STILL choose to indoctrinate themselves.  It's freaking brilliant!  It just left everything unresolved and we were promised would be with our multiple endings.

Not everyone feel that it's incomplete neither. There are plenty of people who liked the way it ended and didn't feel the need to see anymore. Some even feel strongly in not being told exactly what the cannon outcome would be for every single decision in the game. They are paying customers and deserve to be recognized too. The point is people will disagree on this issue no matter what, and you can't expect a CEO of a company to only make statements catered to one camp or the other.

As expected you didn't take the time to read what Bioware promised is, so I'll post it and show you the specific false advertising that has gone on.  A customer should always receive what they paid for and what was advertised. 

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”

^
As you can see this has nothing to do with someone liking what we have, it's not what were told we were getting.  In fact we got the exact opposite of what we were told we were getting.

I don't want to use the Blu-Ray player box with the CD player anaology again.  But yeah, that.

[Primalrose]

Christ people...stop embarassing this community any further okay? There's cynicism then there's just absurdity. I get alot of people are in a rage and emotional right now but you gotta calm down. Let's try to look at this more positively. 

Modifié par Primalrose, 22 mars 2012 - 06:09 .

[Tranceptor]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Tranceptor wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

I've probably said it enough what my career is, so I'll leave it out of this thread.

. . . . but I have no idea what your career is or why it's relevant.

Science Fiction Literature graduate who is a freelancer storyboard concept writer. Graduated from UCSD (still attending! Go Trittons!)

Ah, I see.

[Reptilian Rob]

ket_shee wrote...

Rob, let me preface by saying I respect you and your character (usually). And I would also add I'm very proud of the civil-parts of the Retake movement and their accomplishments.

That said, I find your 'analysis' lacking.

First, you play your credentials well (I read the original version of your post) and establish yourself as an editor, a student, and an active employee in literary analsyis. But you did so without providing any evidence of your work. Thesis papers, research papers, commentaries, articles, generally proof of your prowress that would easily fit into a resume. The lack of this evidence only brings up questions to what KIND of editor, student, and active employee in literary analysis you are. For example we can say that I am a journalist. But then if you find out I'm actually Jim Sterling, how far does my credit as a journalist carry me?

Second, you explain Ray's messages fine; just in more words. Why do I need to read 3-4 extra paragraphs of jargon you never explain for a layman to understand, as if assuming they hold doctrates? Even Highschool English students know how to identify their audience. Ray's message is fairly easy to interpret without additional analysis, in fact the entire message could be conveyed as "just coverin' my ass, yo."

Third, your objectivity is questionable. Your choice of words really highlights this, especially when you stress words like irrational.  In fact, the same 'tactics' you criticize Ray for using are then mimicked by the critic. His argument is irrational, ergo you are projecting your dominance by point it out.

And fourth, your argument is unnecessary. Ray responds to the ending controversy is basically just Ray responding to the ending controversy. As you clearly outlined in your argument, words are cheap until we see some real action. But we haven't seen some real action, so why waste time analyzing cheap words?

Not intended as a bash or an offense. Merely criticism, which you should be used to as you are a literary student. Hold the Line.

Great counter argument, I really appreciate that people who don't like what others are saying can come in and voice their opinion respecfully!

I will agree that my post and some of my wording was lacking, but I still believe that the post has merit. None of this would be happening if Bioware (With Ray's knowing) hadn't lied to us as consumers. 

[Tyrzun]

Primalrose wrote...

Christ people...stop embarassing this community any further okay? There's cynicism then there's just absurdity. I get alot of people are in a rage and emotional right now but you gotta calm down. Let's try to look at this more positively. 

Obviously you think Rey said something else and I think you are dead wrong.  Rob went through a very detailed post about why he thinks differently than you do.  His response to what he believes is totally acceptable and civil.  Stop trying to tell people how to act or think.  Respect others. 

Modifié par Tyrzun, 22 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[RedShft]

Tyrzun wrote...
...

For ****s sake. You cite this like you entered into a CONTRACT with BIOWARE over ME3. 

It's obvious why Bioware employees are afraid of speaking to their fans. I would be too if I knew that by saying something about my game i'm entering into some sort of contract. Holy ****.

You're scary.

In the future you're going to see some sort of disclaimer that saves the Developers ass from being sued by an angry customer who says that you didn't live up to some quote made 2 years ago and GDC.

Modifié par RedShft, 22 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[Edrick1976]

SmokePants wrote...

You people are monsters. Soulless abominations.

There is no mutual exclusivity between saying they care about fan feedback and also being proud of ME3. None at all.

It is the height of righteous indignation to expect them to just totally concede to every stupid point that has been hurled at them. These are smart, talented, creative, hard-working people with feelings and pride. You can't just bludgeon them into accepting your truth. You want them to see things from your point of view, without making any effort to see it from theirs.

You're horrible.

Hey, BioWare. Do yourselves a favor and stop trying to make people like you. You're creating entitled monsters who think they own you. You aren't cultivating brand loyalty, because it's clear they will turn on you like rabid dogs. Do the smart thing and keep them at arms length, so they can't grab you, tie you to the bed, and smash your legs with a mallet.

I've grown weary of being infuriated on your behalf. I know you're Canadians, but some time you've got to stand up and decide enough is enough.

I am sorry when I read this it remind me of my favorit Gnome monster..  LOL 

[Tyrzun]

RedShft wrote...

Tyrzun wrote...
...

For ****s sake. You cite this like you entered into a CONTRACT with BIOWARE over ME3. 

It's obvious why Bioware employees are afraid of speaking to their fans. I would be too if I knew that by saying something about my game i'm entering into some sort of contract. Holy ****.

You're scary.

Actually you did have a purchase agreement. 

I guess I'll have to break out the analogy again.

You got to the store looking for a Blu-Ray player, you tell the sales person, he says this one over here has all the features you want in a Blu-Ray player, you pay for it and take it home, you open the box and a CD player is inside.

IS that a problem?  Yes it is and you will not say it isn't.  You'd go right back up to the store and demand your money back or the Blu-Ray player you paid for.  <---- That's all we are doing.  That's it.

That is what Bioware did, they knew their product did not have the features they advertised and they did not tell their customers.  That's wrong. 

At any point before release day these same people I quoted above could have come out and said guys... we gave you 3 generic endings and we leave everything up in the air and we didn't tie up any of the loose endings like we said we would.  <----- they kept their mouths shout knowing they didn't deliver.  That's wrong.

Now any other business, Best Buy, Walmart, would look in the box and apologize and give you your money back or the Blu-Ray player you wanted and most would offer a gift card or something to make it up to you.  What Bioware is doing instead is hiding behind artist integrity.  That does not make what they did ok and has nothing to do with it.  It was wrong.  <---- This last thing is what realy really bothers me. 

Poor decisions happen, dead lines are missed, any number of reasons could be why we didn't get what we paid for, but refusing to admit we didn't get what we paid for is totally unacceptable.

Modifié par Tyrzun, 22 mars 2012 - 06:19 .

[krogstor]

I agree with everything you said, but as someone who tears apart speeches/arguments/statements for a living, here are some typos in your original post.

Reptilian Rob wrote...

nagative

analyse

irrationaln

aparent

controdicts

supiriority

asolute

geralization

influance

pitty

blatently

Please note that this does not incorporate grammatical errors, just english. I agreed completely with your main point, so let me help you out a bit by giving you the appropriate words:

1:  Negative

2:  Analyze

3: Irrational

4: Apparent

5: Contradicts

6:  Superiority

7: Absolute

8: Generalization

9: Influence

10: Pity

11: Blatantly

[Three-EyedGarlic]

These posts dissecting the PR statements made by Bioware have been quite fascinating. I'm seeing a few folks in the boards here attempting to defend these statements and accusing the rest of us for "overanalyzing", but those of us that have worked the biz can see right through it. Especially those of us with training. I can say I've worked my share of jobs that required weeks or even months of training in the art of human manipulation, aka Public Relations and Customer Service.

Many of these supporters have fallen for the humanization intended by these public postings. There's a chain of command, folks. The creators aren't involved, they're either on the side creating or waiting for their next assignment. Bioware and EA are not people, they are companies. You are hearing the voices not of the creators, but of the people paid to talk to the public. For all we know, the creators hate the ending as much as we do and are silently cheering us on, or they actually stand by what they made and hate us with every living fiber, or they could even be too busy to have any clue this is going on. We will never know. 
The creators are in contract not to speak to the outside world about the project. We will only hear what the employees trained in social manipulation will tell us, which is going to be very little.

I am a professional creator, an artist, a writer. I create things for myself in my spare time, but mostly I am paid to create things to appeal to an audience. When I make the latter, if I miss my mark, I am more than happy to fix it because my job was to make something people would like. I would be surprised if the creators of Mass Effect felt differently (Regardless of what the PR folks say), but alas they are at the mercy of the execs.

For now, we wait to see what the Suits choose to do.

Hold the line.

Modifié par Three-EyedGarlic, 22 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[Reptilian Rob]

krogstor wrote...

I agree with everything you said, but as someone who tears apart speeches/arguments/statements for a living, here are some typos in your original post.

Reptilian Rob wrote...

nagative

analyse

irrationaln

aparent

controdicts

supiriority

asolute

geralization

influance

pitty

blatently

Please note that this does not incorporate grammatical errors, just english. I agreed completely with your main point, so let me help you out a bit by giving you the appropriate words:

1:  Negative

2:  Analyze

3: Irrational

4: Apparent

5: Contradicts

6:  Superiority

7: Absolute

8: Generalization

9: Influence

10: Pity

11: Blatantly

I'm a Literature graduate, not an English graduate. I have other people edit my stuff for me, who are professionals. Plus, it's a forum and I didn't feel the need to be overly concerned.

Also, I type very fast. Sometimes I hit different letter keys without knowing. Hope that clears things up!

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[agathokakological]

RedShft wrote...

Tyrzun wrote...
...

For ****s sake. You cite this like you entered into a CONTRACT with BIOWARE over ME3. 

Advertising is a contract.

Imagine, guy on the street says, "If you give me $60, I'll give you something that does A, B, and C." You give him $60, and he gives you something that does A and B, but not C. It's not what you spent your money on, and had you known that, you would have thought differently about buying the product.

It is, by definition, false advertising. The only reason they should ever be afraid to make a statement about their product to their fans is if they are openly lying.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If, at my job, I said I was going to do something important and openly didn't, got defensive, and made no attempt to correct my mistake, I would be fired. We're just looking for some accountability.

[ket_shee]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Great counter argument, I really appreciate that people who don't like what others are saying can come in and voice their opinion respecfully!

I will agree that my post and some of my wording was lacking, but I still believe that the post has merit. None of this would be happening if Bioware (With Ray's knowing) hadn't lied to us as consumers. 

There was a never a question of your merit, just a question of direction. Picking apart words is fun, sure, but as I pointed out unnecessary. There's plenty of constructive ways you can channel your talents. I especially appreciate your analysis of the endings. Or analyzing the other parts of the game (eager to hear some thoughts about what you thought of Mordin's 'sudden' switch from pro-genophage to anti-genophage).

As it is a story and campaign discussion board, it would fall under those lines as well. I dunno if picking apart the Founder's comment is part of that either. Additionally, Holding the Line doesn't need attackers (especially if you look at the literal terms of Holding the Line), it just needs presence and presence can be exerted without any attacks (like the thread-topic I suggested above).

Keep Holding the Line. And I also want a picture of that Garrus plushy I heard about.

EDIT: missed a word or two in the first sentence, 2 hours of sleep ftw.

Modifié par ket_shee, 22 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[Cyneburh]

Modifié par Cyneburh, 23 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[Reptilian Rob]

ket_shee wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Great counter argument, I really appreciate that people who don't like what others are saying can come in and voice their opinion respecfully!

I will agree that my post and some of my wording was lacking, but I still believe that the post has merit. None of this would be happening if Bioware (With Ray's knowing) hadn't lied to us as consumers. 

There was a never a question or merit, just a question of direction. Picking apart words is fun, sure, but as I pointed out unnecessary. There's plenty of constructive ways you can channel your talents. I especially appreciate your analysis of the endings. Or analyzing the other parts of the game (eager to hear some thoughts about what you thought of Mordin's 'sudden' switch from pro-genophage to anti-genophage).

As it is a story and campaign discussion board, it would fall under those lines as well. I dunno if picking apart the Founder's comment is part of that either. Additionally, Holding the Line doesn't need attackers (especially if you look at the literal terms of Holding the Line), it just needs presence and presence can be exerted without any attacks (like the thread-topic I suggested above).

Keep Holding the Line. And I also want a picture of that Garrus plushy I heard about.

I don't have one, sadly...I have a Garrus t-shirt though! I hope I never said I had one, or maybe you heard it from someone else...I hope Bioware makes one though, after the fix of course.

He is always with me in spirit, that huggable Turian goofball. 

Also, thank you for the words of wisdom. Even us scholars need a reality check once and awhile. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[JPR1964]

N-Seven wrote...

This community is embarrassing itself more by the minute. FFS already, just chill. Will the freaking out and paranoia ever end? It's a video game people.

No it's a product, and we were cheated about it...

JPR out!

[RedShft]

Tyrzun wrote...

Actually you did have a purchase agreement. 

I guess I'll have to break out the analogy again.

You got to the store looking for a Blu-Ray player, you tell the sales person, he says this one over here has all the features you want in a Blu-Ray player, you pay for it and take it home, you open the box and a CD player is inside.

IS that a problem?  Yes it is and you will not say it isn't.  You'd go right back up to the store and demand your money back or the Blu-Ray player you paid for.  <---- That's all we are doing.  That's it.

That is what Bioware did, they knew their product did not have the features they advertised and they did not tell their customers.  That's wrong. 

At any point before release day these same people I quoted above could have come out and said guys... we gave you 3 generic endings and we leave everything up in the air and we didn't tie up any of the loose endings like we said we would.  <----- they kept their mouths shout knowing they didn't deliver.  That's wrong.

Now any other business, Best Buy, Walmart, would look in the box and apologize and give you your money back or the Blu-Ray player you wanted and most would offer a gift card or something to make it up to you.  What Bioware is doing instead is hiding behind artist integrity.  That does not make what they did ok and has nothing to do with it.  It was wrong.  <---- This last thing is what realy really bothers me. 

Poor decisions happen, dead lines are missed, any number of reasons could be why we didn't get what we paid for, but refusing to admit we didn't get what we paid for is totally unacceptable.

I agree with your example, but there's a difference between a quote from an interview and actual advertisements stating that "This is a DVD player and it rocks.". I agree that as customers we should expect to get the product advertised but I feel it's going a bit far to cite quotes from developers as evidence towards features in the game.

Lastly, I agree with your point about artistic integrity. It's hard for me to accept video games as art since I am a classical musician. I understand that there are developers that really believe that Video games are an art form and I try to respect that. However, I have a problem when artistic integrity is seemingly used as a shield for an ending that isn't wrapped up properly.

[Seggalion]

Rob,

Your post assumes alot. While you can interpret someone's intentions how you see fit, it does not mean that is, or was their intention or feeling - you know that.

I doubt you have ever met Dr. Muzyka, nevermind being able to judge what he feels at this moment.

I do not disagree that the references to reviews in his post/blog note detracted from the other portions of the message. However, I thought it was a diplomatic response that was aimed at making those who work for him feel good, and the fans feel their concerns are (likely) to be addressed.

He cannot come out and say "yes, we agree, what we did was awful." That would alienate those who work for him who did an excellent job on the game, except - for those who are upset - with the ending.

Ultimately, I was pleased with the message. Maybe I am reading too much into his one paragraph regarding April. But if they were not going to do that, he could have just said "we have no plans to alter the ending in the immediate future." The rest of the "reviewer x,y, and z gave us an A++" of the message is aimed at not denouncing the game, but rather pointing out that it has been received well in general.

It was balanced. Not perfect. Then again, I have never written anything for a situation like this that I would consider perfect. Neither has anyone else.

Modifié par Seggalion, 22 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Seggalion wrote...

Rob,

Your post assumes alot. While you can interpret someone's intentions how you see fit, it does not mean that is, or was their intention or feeling - you know that.

I doubt you have ever met Dr. Muzyka, nevermind being able to judge what he feels at this moment.

I do not disagree that the references to reviews in his post/blog note detracted from the other portions of the message. However, I thought it was a diplomatic response that was aimed at making those who work for him feel good, and the fans feel their concerns are (likely) to be addressed.

He cannot come out and say "yes, we agree, what we did was awful." That would alienate those who work for him who did an excellent job on the game, except - for those who are upset - with the ending.

Ultimately, I was pleased with the message. Maybe I am reading too much into his one paragraph regarding April. But if they were not going to do that, he could have just said "we have no plans to alter the ending in the immediate future." The rest of the "reviewer x,y, and z gave us an A++" of the message is aimed at not denouncing the game, but rather pointing out that it has been received well.

It was balanced. Not perfect. Then again, I have never written anything for a situation like this that I would consider perfect. Neither has anyone else.

I agree a great deal with what you said, and in most cases I would just shut up and say "Yep, spot on."

But in this case, we were lied to about a product, something we PAYED for. He's deflecting that one truth, and it's unacceptable. 

[Quietness]

/snip

The Facebook group being the biggest representative of size, and that sits at around 70,000 likes. That's 70,000 out 3,000,000! Statistically speaking, that's just over 5%. Normally, any other company in the industry would blow you off and ignore you, yet you're all being paid attention to aggressively, and one of the community workers was even having to block people for personal attacks.

/snip

Im getting sick of this pathetic attempt at math. Have we never taken a statistics class? Or is it really believed that every single person that is unhappy with the game will join facebook and like this group.... oh wait i know! ill just reverse it. 

Mass effect : 
https://www.facebook.com/masseffect  only has 
696,554 likes . Based upon the logic that is shown in this statement each person owns roughly 4-5 copies of ME3.... Based upon your logic everyone who owns the game automatically goes on the appropriate page and hits like.

Modifié par Quietness, 22 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[NeoGuardian86]

I may really really hate the endings.

but you guys really gotta get a grip of yourselves...

[RedShft]

NeoGuardian86 wrote...

I may really really hate the endings.

but you guys really gotta get a grip of yourselves...

haha. yes.

[Dreogan]

NeoGuardian86 wrote...

I may really really hate the endings.

but you guys really gotta get a grip of yourselves...

My suggestion to make pancakes (I even gave them my favorite recipe!) and wait until April fell on deaf ears.

[RedShft]

Dreogan wrote...

NeoGuardian86 wrote...

I may really really hate the endings.

but you guys really gotta get a grip of yourselves...

My suggestion to make pancakes (I even gave them my favorite recipe!) and wait until April fell on deaf ears.

Make pancakes and wait 'till April! That'll be a lot of pancakes!! I hope you're hungry!