474 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

dorktainian wrote...

The Mass Effect 3 ending is akin to Corporate Suicide.

1. You give a terrible ending. No reasoning behind it and alienate your consumer base.
2. You refuse any criticism aimed at you because it is 'Art'.
3. You tell your customers you are listening when clearly that is not exactly the case.
4. The Customer is ALWAYS right. Remember that one Bioware. It's the most important one of all.

1. Not necessarily true.
2. No, they differentiate between constructive and destructive criticism
3. Uhhh...but they are listening.  Ray's statement is proof of that.
4. And this hasn't been true for a LONG time.

[MissMaster_2]

*Starts a slow clap*

[N-Seven]

KeldorKatarn wrote...

Three-EyedGarlic wrote...

Hey dude, you have to remember the chain of command in this industry.

Trust me. I know all about chains of command. And by now people hardly have to hit the forums to see what's going on here.

Wanna talk about integrity, courage and strength? The oh so quoted virtues of Bioware? If they had any of that they'd stand up and say "Either we fix this or I quit".

There's more than one developer out there to work for you know... That's what's called work ethics. If you just do any crap as long as you're payed, well poor you.

Are you ****g serious?!?  People are now totally off their rockers.  So now if the developers at Bioware had any decency yo think they should quit or something?  Because a poorly written ending to a fantastic series is some horrific crime against humanity?  Holy.... Wow.  Just wow.  Wow.  

[crawfs]

I think what this entire thing comes down to is false advertising. Bioware promised so much concerning ME3, the consequences of our actions and the endings.

Instead we got cameo appearances of characters and a horrible ending.

[Reptilian Rob]

N-Seven wrote...

KeldorKatarn wrote...

Three-EyedGarlic wrote...

Hey dude, you have to remember the chain of command in this industry.

Trust me. I know all about chains of command. And by now people hardly have to hit the forums to see what's going on here.

Wanna talk about integrity, courage and strength? The oh so quoted virtues of Bioware? If they had any of that they'd stand up and say "Either we fix this or I quit".

There's more than one developer out there to work for you know... That's what's called work ethics. If you just do any crap as long as you're payed, well poor you.

Are you ****g serious?!?  People are now totally off their rockers.  So now if the developers at Bioware had any decency yo think they should quit or something?  Because a poorly written ending to a fantastic series is some horrific crime against humanity?  Holy.... Wow.  Just wow.  Wow.  

Broken promises and flat out lies would be just as "wow."

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 mars 2012 - 08:45 .

[Arasaka_aus]

How many times can you fit "passionate" into a PR release? It's like the good Dr. wasn't even trying. Not enough passion!

Modifié par Arasaka_aus, 22 mars 2012 - 08:37 .

[OhManTFE]

The ending needs to be rewritten, not added to. There are too many plot-holes and retcons to keep the ending as is and add 'closure' epilogues to it.

[N-Seven]

KeldorKatarn wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

 It's a video game people.

You buy your little boy a toy for christmas, one that he's been looking forward to all year, and he has several hours of fun with it, but then it breaks apart due to construction failure and you boy is crying over it.

You call the support and tell them about it and that you'd like the thing fixed. Do you accept the argument "Hey, it's just a toy..."?

Non-argument alright? We're not little kids, we're mostly adults, working everyday, doing our best to deliver good products to our customers. We expect the same in return when we buy something. The gaming business is one of the biggest markets in the world today and people pay good money for it. We don't care if it is "just" a game alright? We payed money for it and we want the product we were promised, and this clearly isn't it.

That's a terrible analogy.  This is not a toy, nor is it a blu-ray player, like someone else compared it to.  Is that toy under warranty? If so, then you get it replaced.  If not your return it, or you eat the cost. 

I suppose you could complain to the manufacturer that you want a new altered toy created for you, and given to you.  Which is what is happening here.

This is not a blu-ray player that is 'broken'.  This is more like a blu-ray disk.  Say you are in Best Buy and you are browsing movies.  There is a sci-fi movie on the shelf, you pick it up an read the synopsis.  "Astonishing!"  says one review.  Another review says, "One of the best sci-fi movies of the decade!".   The studio-provided synopsis says something like, 'Embark on a thrilling adventure with ground-breaking special effects and amazing action-sequences."

So you go home and watch the movie and you hate it.  In fact you didn't find it thrilling or anything ground-breaking about it.

So you can go return the movie for a refund if you like.  Good luck at going to the studio and asking them to change it to add more 'thrills'.

[blacqout]

In light of the outcry and devious tactics used by those that disliked the ending, he's right not put a great deal of stock on user reviews. The user reviews on Metacritic currently give a score of 3.something. They are far, far more biased than the professional ones, and the only "irrationaln" person here is you, for thinking it unreasonable of Ray Muzyka to recognise this.

I'm glad he makes a point of distinguishing constructive and destructive criticism. Most of the fan outcry isn't just the latter, but has no place in civilised society.

Please stick to your creative guns, BioWare. Do not dumb yourselves down for the masses.

Modifié par blacqout, 22 mars 2012 - 08:51 .

[Kurokenshi]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

[blacqout]

Kurokenshi wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

So you don't think that the game is good as a whole, but care enough about this mediocre/poor game getting a better ending.

Seems like the actions of a reasonable and rational person.

[Reptilian Rob]

blacqout wrote...

Kurokenshi wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

So you don't think that the game is good as a whole, but care enough about this mediocre/poor game getting a better ending.

Seems like the actions of a reasonable and rational person.

Not when the last ten minutes invalidates everything, nope. 

[blacqout]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Kurokenshi wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

So you don't think that the game is good as a whole, but care enough about this mediocre/poor game getting a better ending.

Seems like the actions of a reasonable and rational person.

Not when the last ten minutes invalidates everything, nope. 

That's really sad. You have my pity.

[Kurokenshi]

blacqout wrote...

Kurokenshi wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

So you don't think that the game is good as a whole, but care enough about this mediocre/poor game getting a better ending.

Seems like the actions of a reasonable and rational person.

Wait, I need to work this out quick. For me to want a better ending I have to dislike the whole game?

Unless I'm taking your comment completely the wrong way? 

[Reptilian Rob]

blacqout wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Kurokenshi wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

So you don't think that the game is good as a whole, but care enough about this mediocre/poor game getting a better ending.

Seems like the actions of a reasonable and rational person.

Not when the last ten minutes invalidates everything, nope. 

That's really sad. You have my pity.

Thanks for the feedback! What did you like about my post?!

[blacqout]

Kurokenshi wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Kurokenshi wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

snip read the opening post!

Thanks for the informative post!

The second he mentioned critic reviews I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole"  which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?

I think that a large part of the game was good but the entire series as a whole is overshadowed by the ending.

Hold the line!

So you don't think that the game is good as a whole, but care enough about this mediocre/poor game getting a better ending.

Seems like the actions of a reasonable and rational person.

Wait, I need to work this out quick. For me to want a better ending I have to dislike the whole game?

Unless I'm taking your comment completely the wrong way? 

You said " I lost interest in the post and then came this "Tell your friends if you feel it’s a good game as a whole" which IMO is the worst part of the post. Why would I lie to my friends like that?"

Which means that you feel you would be lying to your friends if you told them Mass Effect 3 was a good game as a whole. Which means that you actually don't consider the game to be good on the whole.

[count_4]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics - but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

Actually this is what gets me most with Rays statement.
What he's basically saying: We know we're right, the critics know we're right but we're feeling generous enough to react to our fan's misled critique.

They're still not accepting that they made the mistakes here. Crafting an ending that violates the laws established with the universe, an ending that violates the characters introduced over the curse of three games and explaing all this with logical fallacies and wild assumptions of a deus ex machina, introduced within the last 5 minutes of the story and without any foreshadowing whatsoever.

Anyway, thanks for insight @ OP and hold the line.

Modifié par count_4, 22 mars 2012 - 09:34 .

[Reptilian Rob]

count_4 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics - but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

Actually this is what gets me most with Rays statement.
What he's basically saying: We know we're right, the critics know we're right but we're feeling generous enough to react to our fan's misled critique.

They're still not accepting that they made the mistakes here. Crafting an ending that violates the laws established with the universe, an ending that violates the characters introduced over the curse of three games and explaing all this with logical fallacies and wild assumptions of a deus ex machina.

Anyway, thanks for insight @ OP and hold the line.

Boware lying through their teeth yet again. Not that hard to see.

[Mad-Max90]

I still wake up in cold sweats from when they promised a different game and then sold me dragon age 2, they lied then an they lied this time...I gave this team a chance, but the. They bent me over and had their way with me like the dragon age team did...

[Reptilian Rob]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I still wake up in cold sweats from when they promised a different game and then sold me dragon age 2, they lied then an they lied this time...I gave this team a chance, but the. They bent me over and had their way with me like the dragon age team did...

My Turian butt hurts a lot too man...

*Hugs*

It'll be ok.

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 mars 2012 - 09:47 .

[N-Seven]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

KeldorKatarn wrote...

Three-EyedGarlic wrote...

Hey dude, you have to remember the chain of command in this industry.

Trust me. I know all about chains of command. And by now people hardly have to hit the forums to see what's going on here.

Wanna talk about integrity, courage and strength? The oh so quoted virtues of Bioware? If they had any of that they'd stand up and say "Either we fix this or I quit".

There's more than one developer out there to work for you know... That's what's called work ethics. If you just do any crap as long as you're payed, well poor you.

Are you ****g serious?!?  People are now totally off their rockers.  So now if the developers at Bioware had any decency yo think they should quit or something?  Because a poorly written ending to a fantastic series is some horrific crime against humanity?  Holy.... Wow.  Just wow.  Wow.  

Broken promises and flat out lies would be just as "wow."

Because game developers always deliver 100% on all their features they plan to put into their game prior to it's release? They just about never do. This is nothing new. Not only for games, but for other forms of entertainment...movies, books, music, whatever. That sucks, but hey it happens. But just like these other forms of entertainment, whether you like them, whether or not you think the endings are good, is subjective. Like it or not, technically, your choices in the 2 prior ME games influence the ending of ME3, via War Assets, though in a pretty shoddily implemented way. Yes, technically there are a multitude of endings, where Shepard/Earth/Squadmates may or may not survive Control/Destroy/Synthesis. Yes, they all suck to me, and vary only in small ways, but whatever. But there are some people who like them. Good for them.

Now, if this was some piece of productivity software with listed features in the manual that did not function, then sure it would be expected they would have to fix them. This is not the same. The manual promises nothing. This is entertainment software. There is no guarantee here, implied or otherwise, and regardless of what may have been said in developer interviews. Good luck to any of the armchair lawyers here. That FTC complaint has no chance.

Rob, I feel bad for you that you didn't like how the story turned out. I feel bad for anyone who didn't, because I am one of them. I'm not riding you because of that.   I dislike the the endings, and a lot of the mechanics of ME3.

The real reason I'm riding your ass is because this is an 'incitement' thread. Or a troll thread. Yes, I said the big 'T' word. Antagonistic in nature, meant to rile up the masses against Ray/Bioware. It's totally non-constructive. In your heart you must have known it when you started it. There have been hundreds of angry threads made in the last week. It's absurd.  I get the impression that this was a way for you to blow off steam.  But like this forum needs anymore hysteria? Well thanks, you just added more.  Hooray.

And Katarn, sorry, the horse you're sitting on right now is so high you need a N7 Breather helmet. I read your line about the lack of 'strength, integrity and courage' and how staff should quit Bioware. If I thought the apex of silliness was reached a few days ago with the 'death threats', the boycotts, the abuse, the personal attacks, and the FTC complaint....well you might have just topped it.    Between this and the OP, the villainization of Bioware is complete.

It's ok to hate the game or the endings. It's ok to be mad, sure. But honestly the way some of you (not all) are expressing it is incredibly... 'loserish', for a lack of a better term.  Yep, that's the one word that comes to mind right now.   Not quite 'soulless monsters' as someone else put it.  Is it any surprise that gamers have a bad rep?

Months down the road I hope it's possible to converse on these forums without being at each other's throats, and we can look back and laugh about this silly drama.  However I'd guess the relationship between the community and Bioware may have been irrevocably damaged, with the community bearing some of that blame.  And the community itself, which I used to be proud to be a part of, has fractured itself and really sunk low in some instances.   That sucks far more than any of the endings. 

[nitefyre410]

count_4 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics - but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

Actually this is what gets me most with Rays statement.
What he's basically saying: We know we're right, the critics know we're right but we're feeling generous enough to react to our fan's misled critique.

They're still not accepting that they made the mistakes here. Crafting an ending that violates the laws established with the universe, an ending that violates the characters introduced over the curse of three games and explaing all this with logical fallacies and wild assumptions of a deus ex machina, introduced within the last 5 minutes of the story and without any foreshadowing whatsoever.

Anyway, thanks for insight @ OP and hold the line.

   


It might be time to call a spade and spade... Bioware is not as good as they think they are... they are just marketed really well.   Maybe thats part of the problem... their heads are so big and inflated they can't belive they made a mistake.  What rubbed me the wrong away  about  Ray apology was his use of the word  "Destructive" there is no such thing as Destructive cristism... just cristism and how it handled determines whether is destructive or not.   He needs to pampering  the Mass Effect team like they are a bunch of childern... they are adults. They should be able to deal with at this point their work get in harshly criticized and if they cant... they need to find a  new line of work.   

That is price you have to pay when you put you art out for everyone to consume...they are going to be those are criticize it harshly. 

[Silpheed58]

Well, a firestorm keeps us watching them, keeps them relevant. They might become scared we become apathetic to the whole mess and go away before they release dlc.

[Reptilian Rob]

N-Seven wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

N-Seven wrote...

KeldorKatarn wrote...

Three-EyedGarlic wrote...

Hey dude, you have to remember the chain of command in this industry.

Trust me. I know all about chains of command. And by now people hardly have to hit the forums to see what's going on here.

Wanna talk about integrity, courage and strength? The oh so quoted virtues of Bioware? If they had any of that they'd stand up and say "Either we fix this or I quit".

There's more than one developer out there to work for you know... That's what's called work ethics. If you just do any crap as long as you're payed, well poor you.

Are you ****g serious?!?  People are now totally off their rockers.  So now if the developers at Bioware had any decency yo think they should quit or something?  Because a poorly written ending to a fantastic series is some horrific crime against humanity?  Holy.... Wow.  Just wow.  Wow.  

Broken promises and flat out lies would be just as "wow."

Because game developers always deliver 100% on all their features they plan to put into their game prior to it's release? They just about never do. This is nothing new. Not only for games, but for other forms of entertainment...movies, books, music, whatever. That sucks, but hey it happens. But just like these other forms of entertainment, whether you like them, whether or not you think the endings are good, is subjective. Like it or not, technically, your choices in the 2 prior ME games influence the ending of ME3, via War Assets, though in a pretty shoddily implemented way. Yes, technically there are a multitude of endings, where Shepard/Earth/Squadmates may or may not survive Control/Destroy/Synthesis. Yes, they all suck to me, and vary only in small ways, but whatever. But there are some people who like them. Good for them.

Now, if this was some piece of productivity software with listed features in the manual that did not function, then sure it would be expected they would have to fix them. This is not the same. The manual promises nothing. This is entertainment software. There is no guarantee here, implied or otherwise, and regardless of what may have been said in developer interviews. Good luck to any of the armchair lawyers here. That FTC complaint has no chance.

Rob, I feel bad for you that you didn't like how the story turned out. I feel bad for anyone who didn't, because I am one of them. I'm not riding you because of that.   I dislike the the endings, and a lot of the mechanics of ME3.

The real reason I'm riding your ass is because this is an 'incitement' thread. Or a troll thread. Yes, I said the big 'T' word. Antagonistic in nature, meant to rile up the masses against Ray/Bioware. It's totally non-constructive. In your heart you must have known it when you started it. There have been hundreds of angry threads made in the last week. It's absurd.  I get the impression that this was a way for you to blow off steam.  But like this forum needs anymore hysteria? Well thanks, you just added more.  Hooray.

And Katarn, sorry, the horse you're sitting on right now is so high you need a N7 Breather helmet. I read your line about the lack of 'strength, integrity and courage' and how staff should quit Bioware. If I thought the apex of silliness was reached a few days ago with the 'death threats', the boycotts, the abuse, the personal attacks, and the FTC complaint....well you might have just topped it.    Between this and the OP, the villainization of Bioware is complete.

It's ok to hate the game or the endings. It's ok to be mad, sure. But honestly the way some of you (not all) are expressing it is incredibly... 'loserish', for a lack of a better term.  Yep, that's the one word that comes to mind right now.   Not quite 'soulless monsters' as someone else put it.  Is it any surprise that gamers have a bad rep?

Months down the road I hope it's possible to converse on these forums without being at each other's throats, and we can look back and laugh about this silly drama.  However I'd guess the relationship between the community and Bioware may have been irrevocably damaged, with the community bearing some of that blame.  And the community itself, which I used to be proud to be a part of, has fractured itself and really sunk low in some instances.   That sucks far more than any of the endings. 

For one it wasn't ONE lie, it was about twenty or thirty.

Second, this community is not at each other's throats. This is the most connected and unified I've ever seen it be.

Third, personal attacks and sarcasm only show the weakness of your argument. Either be respectful and objective (looking at everyone's views not just your own, you will see I have agreed in this thread to counterpoints of my own argument) or leave the thread. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 mars 2012 - 09:59 .

[EmGo]

Oh wel... I just want a better ending ;(