474 réponses à ce sujet

[MrLee95]

Great post! I also am concerned after reading Dr. Ray Muzyka’s "apology".

I guess we will see at PAX or sometime in April.

I wish I could goto PAX and have a conversation with BioWare or show how truly unhappy I am with the ending!

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
His statement did little more than start a firestorm.

If not now, soon. 

TBH, I feel you're right and wrong.   I think his speech was a PR attempt to calm criticism, while allowing the team to go either way.  The double-talk is just a means of being able to say he did what he promised no matter what the eventual outcome.  I don't think it's outright malice, though he may be annoyed.

[Brawne]

The Real Bowser wrote...

It's amazing how hostile and defensive the community is getting against people that are not happy with the ending. They are treating this issue like Bioware is their god, and anything Bioware says or does is absolutely infallible. Disagreeing with them is heresy!

Get the hell over it. If you want to disagree, that's fine, but can we discuss this like civilized people instead of ignorant morons? And this applies to both sides of the argument, but it's the 'pro-ender' crowd that is inciting for the most part, isn't it?

The simple fact is that we're all fans of Bioware. If we weren't, we wouldn't be upset about this yet care enough to ask Bioware to fix it. If we lost all faith in Bioware, we wouldn't be here posting. We'd have sold/returned our copies and moved on. To be frank with you, I think more and more people are doing this by the day. By the time this ****storm is over, this forum is going to be a lot more quiet.

That's exactly what this letter was all about and what it is trying to achieve. To ridicule dissatisfied people and make them look like crazy minority and sick rest of the community on them.
Gj. Like I said before, genius letter.

[Tony208]

Yeah I caught the propping oneself up and the subtle digs at the fanbase right away. But he did confirm they are going to do something about the endings. What it'll be is anyone's guess. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Blackmind1]

Endersgone wrote...

Have to agree... it's getting a little crazy around here.

I totally read that in Garrus' voice for some reason. It's the first time I've done that on here!

[DaosX]

HTTP 404 wrote...

OP see digs, I see a guy defending his people. I want a boss who got my back. Not a boss who tells costumers I was wrong. (not saying that was right, just empathizing)

but I appreciate your breakdown nonetheless

If you're a store manager and your customer service person is lying to customers and creates false advertising, what would you do? If you're a football manager and your player is throwing games for his own personal gain, what would you do? If you were a general and your soldiers were attacking unarmed civilians, what would you do? Etc

Just because someone's under your wing doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to everything they do. It's one thing to be FAIR, it's another to be IGNORANT.

[Ishiken]

Zanallen wrote...

And people wonder why the devs are hesitant to comment on things...

There is a reason why people in crisis management PR is paid so much more than ordinary PR. With each new crisis, the crisis management team must come up with a new and evolving way of dealing with discontent, since once you have heard an excuse being used once or twice then the consumer becomes desensitived to the language. Bioware is trying to manage this fallout with an old playbook and it's showing.

[J717]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

This community is beginning to get embarrassing, now. No offence, OP, but you come off as a poor man's version of the other PR guy, which you likely are. I didn't listen to the other guy, and I'm definitely not going to listen to you.

I've heard enough from the creator's themselves to make my own decision. Spreading negativity through poorly de-constructed blog posts will help nobody.

Until I see you put up a valid argument I'll have to pass on your judgement. 

Sorry, but I'm taking the word of Dr. Muzyka. He's given me many years of great entertainment, and told us they are fixing this game. You're just a guy trying to get people to notice him by drumming up controversy.

What controversy? 

All the OP did was take a publicly available statement by Ray and dissect it. Anyone can do that....if you think that's "controversy," you're being completely ignorant.

Also, for someone that seems so defensive about the ending and carefree about the game, what exactly are you doing trolling threads that you don't agree with? That is the ultimate sign of someone just "drumming up attention." You're not fooling anyone.

[czombie]

I personally do not care if they change the ending or not. I would like it if they did, but if they do not, my life will go on and I will be less likely to buy a BioWare product in the future, which is my prerogative as a consumer, of course. However, the idea that because of the nature of the electronic gaming industry and how easy it is to "rewrite" an ending with DLC, I see this as an unprecedented opportunity to personally improve upon an existing work of art with my own input. I do not really buy the "artistic integrity" arguments. If new DLC is created that revises the ending, it's still the creator's work of art, not the fans. Do you think that J.K. Rowling did not listen to her fans in between books and let this impact her writing in some way? Of course she did. Do you think George Lucas did not listen to fans in between his films and changed them accordingly? Oh wait, bad example... At any rate, I do not feel that an artist listening to his or her fans devalues that artist's creation. All art is created as interplay between the creator and the observer.

[Militarized]

Just a protip: Corporations are neither good nor evil, they are amoral. Come March 31st they will look at their expected profits and decide where to go, because that is all they care about.

If we had an effect on it, depending on how severe, they will try and fix it. Or drop it all together... but that is unlikely due to the PAX panel and projected earnings through DLC 

If we didn't have an effect on it, they may toss us a bone or ignore us.

Modifié par Militarized, 22 mars 2012 - 04:00 .

[Terumitsu]

Interesting read Rob. Glad to have you here as you are a huge credit to us.

[HTTP 404]

DaosX wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

OP see digs, I see a guy defending his people. I want a boss who got my back. Not a boss who tells costumers I was wrong. (not saying that was right, just empathizing)

but I appreciate your breakdown nonetheless

If you're a store manager and your customer service person is lying to customers and creates false advertising, what would you do? If you're a football manager and your player is throwing games for his own personal gain, what would you do? If you were a general and your soldiers were attacking unarmed civilians, what would you do? Etc

Just because someone's under your wing doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to everything they do. It's one thing to be FAIR, it's another to be IGNORANT.

bold   everything you said is fair.  I do expect my boss to have my back in front of others.  but when it comes to the drawing board he/she better say wtf in private to me.

[Ilzairspar]

Just remember the wise words of Joker.

"Well, I don't trust anyone who makes more than me."

I'm in wait and see mode.  My money won't go to a DLC till I know that they actually listened to us and heard what we were saying.

Modifié par Ilzairspar, 22 mars 2012 - 04:01 .

[Lazarus Cricket]

Very Interesting, I like all the break down, I hope we get a better perspective as to how all of this will play out soon.

Hopefully, they will want to fix this tacked on and poorly planned current ending instead of defending work that is sub par when compared to the rest of their work.

Just remind people to remain civil, even a very few drops can poison the soup, to use a strange analogy (I'm at my desk eating soup, mmm lentils) so with luck there won't be anymore threats as a few nuts could be used to smear everyone associated with the retake mass effect movement not to mention it's a pretty low thing to do in general.

oh yeah, the Line... you know what to do with it.

[Palando]

The problem with breaking down a statement piece by piece is that you run the risk of putting too much weight on elements that don't really mean anything. I saw the second paragraph as setting forth a genuine conflict that exists, that between the desires of the fans and the intent of the artist, the OP saw it as a put-down. Try not to create bogeymen where none exist.

[TremulantOne]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Endersgone wrote...

Have to agree... it's getting a little crazy around here.

I totally read that in Garrus' voice for some reason. It's the first time I've done that on here!

Blackmind1, for someone who is so sure people positng negatively about this have no life you sure are making your presence known in this thread. I assume you believe you have a right to your own opinion yes? 

So does everyone else here. Stop denigrating others for their opinions. You have the option NOT to read this thread, and subsequently the option NOT to post in it. Go ahead though, keep inadvertently bumping it so more people get to read it though!

[N-Seven]

Brawne wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...

It's amazing how hostile and defensive the community is getting against people that are not happy with the ending. They are treating this issue like Bioware is their god, and anything Bioware says or does is absolutely infallible. Disagreeing with them is heresy!

Get the hell over it. If you want to disagree, that's fine, but can we discuss this like civilized people instead of ignorant morons? And this applies to both sides of the argument, but it's the 'pro-ender' crowd that is inciting for the most part, isn't it?

The simple fact is that we're all fans of Bioware. If we weren't, we wouldn't be upset about this yet care enough to ask Bioware to fix it. If we lost all faith in Bioware, we wouldn't be here posting. We'd have sold/returned our copies and moved on. To be frank with you, I think more and more people are doing this by the day. By the time this ****storm is over, this forum is going to be a lot more quiet.

That's exactly what this letter was all about and what it is trying to achieve. To ridicule dissatisfied people and make them look like crazy minority and sick rest of the community on them.
Gj. Like I said before, genius letter.

I am part of the dissatisfied people.  I hated all three endings.  I donated towards Child's Play.  But I'm not about to let paranoia overtake me, villainize Bioware as a whole or individual employees, or conduct any witch hunts or Spanish inquisitions.  You know how many threads have been created in the last week which have no real purpose other than to get people madder?  I've lost count.  This is another one.  It's a pretty one though.  Very enticing title.  Not very constructive though.  Which is what we should be doing.

[Zu Long]

Tyrzun wrote...
Another person jumps in without the facts.  Well the issue as it always has bee nis FALSE advertising and REY didn't mention it at all.  Prepare to understand and actually I expect you to not say a thing, most people on "your" side do after we bring this up.

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”

^ That is what was advertised.  That is what we paid for.  That is not what we got.  NOTHING defends them giving us the opposite.  It's false advertising and unethical.

It's why Forbes is getting involved.

Erik Kain can explain to you what Rey actually said if you won't believe us.

http://www.forbes.co...ending-sort-of/

I've been keeping up with Forbes every day, and I already read all the quotes, largely the first time they were posted back on the dev promises topic on the discussion board. One of the things I had been worried about after the game first came out was that the quotes meant that Bioware really had planned to release the real ending as a money grab. If you watched the Final Hours though, it becomes apparent that they really thought this was a satisfying way to end the game. Hudson didn't think there was an A, B, C ending to the game he considered the final battle to all be part of the ending, and was counting on the fans own experiences shaping their perceptions of the endings they got.

I tend to think Gamble's "it won't be like 'Lost'" statement was based on the version they cut at the last minute, where the star child actually does answer all your questions about the reapers. Were they talking up their game? Absolutely. Was there actual malice or intent to decieve involved? I can't say looking at the evidence as a whole that there was. Now, they made a mistake, as the ending was geniunely awful, but I have faith in them as the team that put together a trilogy that is save that one flaw quite possibly the greatest achievement in video gaming to date. I talked with several of them before, and none of them struck me as being particularly evil-minded. (Except maybe Chris, but at least he's up front about it)

So I am in possession of the facts and I don't need Forbes to tell me that Ray didn't actually promise much of anything. I worked that out by myself. What we have now is a timeline, and the knowledge that the company co-founder is directly involved. We also have a plea for construtive debate, which in my view is always to the good.

Tearing his letter apart and pointing to this part or that part to show what he "REALLY" meant doesn't accomplish anything. I've found that when you assume the worst in other people, you find what you're looking for whether it's really there or not.

Modifié par Zu Long, 22 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[Chrono8609]

Regardless of what he said, this is only the same stuff we have heard anyway. "We are listening to your feedback." The only thing different is that he gave us a time in which we'd hear something.

[Coolfaec]

TremulantOne wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Endersgone wrote...

Have to agree... it's getting a little crazy around here.

I totally read that in Garrus' voice for some reason. It's the first time I've done that on here!

Blackmind1, for someone who is so sure people positng negatively about this have no life you sure are making your presence known in this thread. I assume you believe you have a right to your own opinion yes? 

So does everyone else here. Stop denigrating others for their opinions. You have the option NOT to read this thread, and subsequently the option NOT to post in it. Go ahead though, keep inadvertently bumping it so more people get to read it though!

You have the option NOT to read this thread, and subsequently the option NOT to post in it. Go ahead though, keep inadvertently bumping it so more people get to read it though!

Modifié par Coolfaec, 22 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[The Wumpus]

I respect your credentials, Rob, but beware the temptation to assume that the other guy is lying or trying to trick you. Once you start believing that, it's very, very hard to stop, and it's a terrible strain on relationships.

[warrior256]

I always figured that something was very, very wrong about that speech. Good to see that not only do others agree with me, but can also prove that this is the truth. Thank you for taking the time to look into this!

[Zu Long]

N-Seven wrote...

Brawne wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...

It's amazing how hostile and defensive the community is getting against people that are not happy with the ending. They are treating this issue like Bioware is their god, and anything Bioware says or does is absolutely infallible. Disagreeing with them is heresy!

Get the hell over it. If you want to disagree, that's fine, but can we discuss this like civilized people instead of ignorant morons? And this applies to both sides of the argument, but it's the 'pro-ender' crowd that is inciting for the most part, isn't it?

The simple fact is that we're all fans of Bioware. If we weren't, we wouldn't be upset about this yet care enough to ask Bioware to fix it. If we lost all faith in Bioware, we wouldn't be here posting. We'd have sold/returned our copies and moved on. To be frank with you, I think more and more people are doing this by the day. By the time this ****storm is over, this forum is going to be a lot more quiet.

That's exactly what this letter was all about and what it is trying to achieve. To ridicule dissatisfied people and make them look like crazy minority and sick rest of the community on them.
Gj. Like I said before, genius letter.

I am part of the dissatisfied people.  I hated all three endings.  I donated towards Child's Play.  But I'm not about to let paranoia overtake me, villainize Bioware as a whole or individual employees, or conduct any witch hunts or Spanish inquisitions.  You know how many threads have been created in the last week which have no real purpose other than to get people madder?  I've lost count.  This is another one.  It's a pretty one though.  Very enticing title.  Not very constructive though.  Which is what we should be doing.

May I just say it's a pleasure to know that at least one other person hasn't succombed to the crazy? 

Keep fighting the good fight, brother.

Modifié par Zu Long, 22 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[Grasich]

Beautiful post OP, very well thought out.

Hold the line.

[NightHawkIL]

Palando wrote...

The problem with breaking down a statement piece by piece is that you run the risk of putting too much weight on elements that don't really mean anything. I saw the second paragraph as setting forth a genuine conflict that exists, that between the desires of the fans and the intent of the artist, the OP saw it as a put-down. Try not to create bogeymen where none exist.

That's a fair point against breaking down something casual such as a forum post, but this was an official statement representing a multi million dollar company. You can bet that there was absolutely nothing in it that was not meticulously thought out. You can tell even further how much thought was put into releasing a statment by how long it took to do so.

I believe the OP was entirely fair in his analysis.